Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: BoronNitride on May 18, 2016, 02:42:02 PM
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Hi guys i'm new to the forum, looking for help regarding trying to control a Panasonic AC servo driver with the Ethernet smooth stepper and mach 4, struggling to find good documentation on the wiring to the 36 pin CN I/F input, also whether it accepts step/direction input or whether i will have to use a differential line driver, Also wiring diagrams for the 20 pin encoder input would be helpful, Cheers!
model of the driver: MSD083A1XX07
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Looks like it can, page 18 says Pulse and Signal which is another way of saying Step/Direction.
Looks like it wants differential inputs, may work single ended but I would highly recommend buying or making line drivers so that you can use the differenntial signals, much more noise immune.
https://industrial.panasonic.com/content/data/MT/PDF/MINAS-XXseries_manual_e.pdf
Hood
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Hi Hood, thanks very much for your reply, will invest in a line driver for the step/direction when I get chance, just ordered the necessary components to make the cables for the CN I/F and the Encoder Signal connector, the manual says that it accepts 12-24 vdc control signals not sure whether the line driver will boost the 5v from the ESS to 24vdc or if that is necessary if you can clarify, also looking for a wiring diagram of the 15 way connector for the encoder as it's just coloured wires from the motor with no numbers cheers.
Regards Lewis.
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The Step/Dir inputs will almost certainly be 5v.
The 12-24v is for the digital I/O, things such as Enable, Reset, Fault signals etc.
Don't know the motors you have so you would need to find info on them to get encoder wiring info.
Hood
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Hi thanks again for the advice Hood, so for the digital I/O I should just be able to use a 24v relay for the necessary things such as enable and reset and use the 5v outputs from the ESS to control them in mach? Also the motor model is: MSM082A1F - I had a look round but couldn't find any diagrams if you manage to find something that would be a godsend.
Thanks a lot !
Regards Lewis.
EDIT: found this but I'm not sure whether this is correct for my specific motor or whether encoder wiring is standard across there range of servos - photo below
Link to where I found manual: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://industrial.panasonic.com/content/data/MT/PDF/A4_ex.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjW-_iwyenMAhUkKcAKHWf-DkYQFggoMAI&usg=AFQjCNFJXnvLMVmEnSwi9tmaF3xMEgsOHw&sig2=BohptyORxXrpoaEoVUTUZQ (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://industrial.panasonic.com/content/data/MT/PDF/A4_ex.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjW-_iwyenMAhUkKcAKHWf-DkYQFggoMAI&usg=AFQjCNFJXnvLMVmEnSwi9tmaF3xMEgsOHw&sig2=BohptyORxXrpoaEoVUTUZQ)
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Hi thanks again for the advice Hood, so for the digital I/O I should just be able to use a 24v relay for the necessary things such as enable and reset and use the 5v outputs from the ESS to control them in mach? Also the motor model is: MSM082A1F - I had a look round but couldn't find any diagrams if you manage to find something that would be a godsend.
Thanks a lot !
Regards Lewis.
EDIT: found this but I'm not sure whether this is correct for my specific motor or whether encoder wiring is standard across there range of servos - photo below
Link to where I found manual: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://industrial.panasonic.com/content/data/MT/PDF/A4_ex.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjW-_iwyenMAhUkKcAKHWf-DkYQFggoMAI&usg=AFQjCNFJXnvLMVmEnSwi9tmaF3xMEgsOHw&sig2=BohptyORxXrpoaEoVUTUZQ (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://industrial.panasonic.com/content/data/MT/PDF/A4_ex.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjW-_iwyenMAhUkKcAKHWf-DkYQFggoMAI&usg=AFQjCNFJXnvLMVmEnSwi9tmaF3xMEgsOHw&sig2=BohptyORxXrpoaEoVUTUZQ)
disregard that link it appears I have sent the wrong one also won't let me edit oops my bad, correct link
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Haha, I was just about to post the same pic you have. It is a newer model motor but very likely the pin out of the encoder is the same. If the colours correspond then it is almost certain they are the same. If you have a scope you could wire 5v to the power wires and then scope the outputs to see.
The other thing you could do is open the case (do not remove the encoder) and see if you can find the part number of the line driver on the circuit inside the encoder. If you can, then you should be able to find a data sheet for it and you could likely trace the wires and see if they correspond.
Regarding the I/O, yes you could use relays or you could use optos and make up a small circuit.
Hood
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Cheers again for the advice ;), the opto isolators look like a way better idea than relays for what I want, will definitely get some of them, gonna try take the casing off the encoder later today and see if I can dig any info up.
Regards Lewis.
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OK I tried to take the plastic cover of the encoder but couldn't without damaging it so I thought best to leave it be, anyway I have uploaded a picture of the connector and the colours match the diagram, however I cannot confirm that it's 100% correct as I don't have an oscilloscope :(
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If the colours are the same then almost certain it will be the same as the diagram.
Hood
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Nice one, will test when I get the connectors in the post, what would you recommend - cat5 cable? Have plenty of that lying around, maybe upgrade to shielded cable when I know it's working?
Cheers Lewis ;D :D
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Cat5 should work as long as you keep the twisted pairs correct, example, have A+ and A- on one pair, B+B- on another etc. Shielding however shielding is always a good idea.
Hood
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Thanks for the advice again Hood, decided I'm going to use RJ45 connectors attached to the D type connectors with CAT7 shielded ethernet cables after I have tested it, that way I will have neat connectors on the side of the drive casing ;D
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Okay I ordered some 3M volition cat7 installation cable, got it dead cheap at £4 for 10m, gonna scrap the idea for connectors and just use this for the data cables, has an external shield for the 4 pairs and each twisted pair has its own shielding, for the motor power I think I have seen some shielded 4 core cable lying around at work, will post pics when I get all the stuff.
;D ;D ;D
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Sounds reasonable enough, cheaper than the cable I usually get, it is 6 pair shielded, here it is.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331323457951?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Hood
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Think it's left over cable this guy was using must be trying to get rid of it, link here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222098158732 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222098158732)
Regards Lewis ;D
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Threw together a quick test board whilst I wait for the cable components to arrive to make sure everything is working fine added a pic below, got a nice fanuc lathe MPG just need to figure out how to implement in mach ;D ;D
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Any idea what the MPG (hand wheel) output is? Hopefully it will be 5v square wave differential.
Hood
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The MPG output doesn't have a line driver it is A B single ended 5v, had it hooked up to an arduino awhile back, it was 100ppr (400 quadrature), just A B +5v GND - and wires for the switches (XZ - x1x10x100 and an LED),
Also have a circuit that uses an encoder on the axis and displays the position on a row of 7 segment displays for easy manual use (using a tiny monitor for my control panel don't want to have to squint to see figures, also they look nice!) curious about the torque and speed outputs on the servo drive as I have some red yellow green bargraph displays that would look sexy for axis load.
Regards Lewis ;D
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Thats ok, I prefer differential but single ended should work fine as long as you shield or do not have in a noisy environment.
It will depend on the output of the drive, the Allen Bradley drives I have on a few machines will output +/- 10v which you can scale to whatever you want. I fitted a meter to my lathes spindle motor to act as a load meter and it works well.
I was at one point trying to get the output so that it was only 0-10v so that I could input via my PLC to Mach but wasn't clever enough so gave up :D
Hood
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The MPG is going to be connected to the control panel, will use that shielded cat7 from there to the cabinet to avoid noise, as for the load displays I have some lm3914 bar display drivers that accept an analog signal maybe could use them, ordered 2 more parallel port header connectors for the ESS to expand my I/O from one port, im assuming for the MPG it's just a case of AB and the switches wired to inputs and configured in mach with multipliers for x1x10x100? :D :D
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Yes just A/B and obviously 5v/0v.
Regarding the x1 x10 x100, with the ESS you do not have these options as it sticks to the method that Mach uses. What you will have is Velocity mode and then multi-step mode. When in Velocity mode it moves at the rate you turn the MPG but not accurate step sizes. When in Multi-step it will move accurate distances (whatever you have set for step size) but will be a bit jerky.
I use a brain on the mill and lathe that I have the SS and ESS on, what I have is it looking at the switch position, if one position it sets Velocity mode, if the other two it automatically changes to multistep mode and then step size depending which position.
Hood
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So you can have example x100 be velocity mode and x10 and x1 be a set step size? For a brain can this be an arduino circuit or is this a feature of mach?
Cheers Lewis ;D
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Here is a screenshot of the section of the Brain for that.
I am using a PLC so it says Mod ** In but if using normal inputs to Mach it would have them.
So basically it is looking at 4 inputs 23,24,25,26.
23 is the position for Velocity mode so it passes the signal to the end and outputs the MPG Mode 1 which is velocity mode.
24, 25 and 26 are passed through then through an Or and then to MPG Mode 3 which is multi step.
Also 24, 25 and 26 are looked at to set the Step size DRO, so first is a/100 so your step size would be 0.01mm, next a/10 so 0.1mm and lastly a/1 so 1mm.
Hood
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Thanks a lot for the reply, I understand the brain part now :)
Wired my MPG into the ESS but had no luck with the mach4 side of things, can't figure out how you map the pins to the aux-encoder ??? Cant find any mention of MPGs anywhere apart from the mpg page in configure mach and ess diagnostics, i have A=13 B=15 of port 1,Pics below
Cheers Lewis.
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Wouldn't let me post photos said an error occurred ::)
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Afraid I have not used Mach 4 for a long time so can't help with it. Probably best to post on the Mach4 section of the forum for help with it.
Hood
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Okay cheers, if you use Mach3 can you explain how you would do it in that ;D
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The MPG is just set up in Ports and Pins Encoder page. Enter the port and pin number for A and B of the MPG.
Hood
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Nice one mate ;D
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Okay guys got the parts delivered and made the cable for the encoder, was extremely difficult to solder the 20pin connector with the cable being so stiff due to shielding but managed to pull it off, also got some shielded 4 core armored cable for the motor power connections, fired it up all works well just need to make the CN/IF connector so I can enable the servo with the 24v I/O, encoder signal is good the Error 22 has gone can't wait to see what kind of power this thing has ;D ;D ;D
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Good to hear it is all working :)
Notice the left hand cable on the second pic just has two cores, is there not an Earth connection there?
Hood
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Yeah it is earthed u can't see it in the photo, the setup here is only temporary so the power wires are everywhere :D, will be mounted to an aluminium plate in my cabinet.
Regards Lewis.
EDIT: needed to ask you hood, my 24v Psu is 600w 25amp, the data sheet says do not apply more than 50ma to the CN/IF, will this only draw the power it requires or will it get hungry and pop my driver, cheers!
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Ah ok.
Regarding the 50mA, could that be the max that is allowable on each output?
Hood
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Yes I just realised :D, should be fine on the inputs then?
Pics below, Cheers.
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Okay the motor is turning enabled servo on with a relay ran the tuning in the drive and it turns, need to sort the noise out now believe as the motor gets up to speed with fast stops and reverses the spike errors the drive :o
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It is the outputs that have a limit as they are sourcing and if you connect a load to them that exceeds 50mA then it could blow the output.
Inputs do not have that problem as, although they are also sourcing, you are connecting them to 0V and thus the internal circuitry of the drive is controlling the current that will pass.
Regarding the fault, sounds like some tuning required.
Hood
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Thanks alot, spent a bit of time tuning the drive it works fine now, looking for a differential line driver for the step dir inputs now, wondering if this chip will do: SN75158P
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This is the ones I have used in the past.
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/line-transmitters/0630875/
Hood
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Just ordered one, are there any extra components needed or is it just solder and go? Cheers :D
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Nope, should be fine, just 5v 0v and your step/dir signals.
You using it as a spindle or something that you only need 1 line driver?
Hood
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It's going to be my Z axis motor for the lathe :D
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Ha ha ok, hope your putting a servo on the X as well, threading pullout just so much snappier with the accel of a servo :)
Hood
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Unfortunately not :D got a nema 34 slim type motor for the X it's the 650oz/in variety, wish I had a servo for the X maybe upgrade in time haha
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Got the line driver, slightly confused about what the pin G does, do I connect it to +5v? May I have a diagram of how you had it configured, Regards Lewis
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G is to enable the chip, just connect it to 5v. The -G you leave disconnected.
Hood
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Okay thanks a lot managed to get the motor running with mach ;D, getting some problems with the drive tripping, wondering if it's tuning, the motor is making a subtle whistling sound and at different velocitys in mach it squeals periodically, at low rpm it seems fine however the drive trips randomly, regenerative energy maybe?
Regards Lewis
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The motors may whistle faintly whilst stationary but should not be squealing at any speed.
What error does the drive show when it trips?
Hood
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It doesn't show an error the LED display just flashes and you have to reboot the drive ???
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Guess I was a silly billy indeed the dynamic break wanted 24v to disengage I thought it needed 24v to engage ;D :D, oops rookie mistake haha
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Oh well at least you found the problem :)
Yes brakes on motors tend to be that way as a fail safe, if power is lost for any reason the brake comes on.
Hood
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That's a pretty cool feature wouldn't want the head of a machine to crush you incase of a power failure, thanks for your help getting the motor running, did some speed tests and torque tests, 3000rpm can't hardly hear it also the torque is insane compared to a stepper motor, looking to get the torque monitor output hooked upto an led bargraph maybe an LM391 driver ;D
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Yes, totally different league to steppers.
Steppers still have there place, they are on the coil winder I made and occasionally operate for a customer. It was simply because servos would not really have been any benefit although the whining racket (some say singing ::) )of the steppers sometimes makes me wish I had gone servos, thankfully it doesn't get used too much.
Hood