Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: mishko on January 26, 2016, 10:33:10 AM
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Hi guys,
I'd like to ask for your help. I've been trying to connect the handwheel (see image) to MACH3 and use it for jogging, without success so far. I have searched for information here on forum and on the web, only to get even more confused.
My question is, is it at all possible to connect and setup this handwheel without having second LPT port, modbus card, some special plugins etc.?
What I did is connect the handwheel's Vcc, GND, A(pin 13) nd B(pin15) to my BOB, and setup an MPG#1 as on the attached setup image. I guess I was overly optimistic, and I'm more than probably missing something, so I'd be thankful for any help.
I also wanted to ask if there's any option to select the axis for jogging via BOB terminals and if so, how to setup this?
If this has to do some other way, I'd also be grateful to some links to the information how exactly it should be done.
Best,
Miso
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Just connecting a 100ppr wheel isn't going to work. You need to get a pendant that has the driver, Mach 3 plug-in and means to select the axis. Vista iMach is good but there are quite a few on the market.
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Yes you can connect to the first port no problem, well as long as you have spare inputs.
Same for axis select switches but as there are only 5 inputs on the first port then you will be limited.
Did you switch the mode to the MPG via the Tab screen?
Hood
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Thanks for your answers, much appreciated.
Yes, I did switch to MPG in the onscreen jogger (TAB).
I was just interested if this can be done, I will free the inputs for the testing purpose if somebody can point me in the right direction. Do I have to set something else besides setting MPG#1 on teh MPG tab, enable something in some other place?
Thanks in advance for your help.
I have a couple PCI LPT ports ordered, so later it won't be a problem to add one if this works...
Miso
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All you should need is to Enable the MPG in Ports and Pins, MPG page and enter the correct port and pin numbers and have it on MPG mode in the Tab screen (or make your own button for the main page)
It may be your breakout board that is the problem although I would have thought it would at least twitch the motors.
I ran my Bridgeport for a long time with the MPG connected directly to a second port, ie no breakout board.
Hood
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BTW , is the MPG definitely 5V?
I only see Vcc on it.
Hood
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Yes, it is 5V, not on it but it's in specifications.
Thanks,
Miso
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Yes, it is 5V, not on it but it's in specifications.
I've also checked it with oscilloscope, 5V, and it worked fine. he second AB pair is just inverted, I've tried both, but no luck...
Thanks,
Miso
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Ok can you connect it again, set Mach up for the MPG then close Mach and then attach your xml.
I will have a look at the xml and see if I can find a problem with the config.
Hood
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Here it is, thanks again...
Miso
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Afraid that seems to be a blank xml.
Hood
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Sorry, I can' understand why it's blank. I just cloned the profile and this one should be OK.
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E-Stop and MPG "B" are both on pin 15.
Are you certain that the MPG wiring is connected properly ?
Maybe attach the data sheet ?
Russ
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Hi Russ, thanks for the tip.
I'm afraid this isn't the reason why it doesn't work, I've moved e-stop to another pin, and it's not physically connected anyway, just emulated. Nothing happened, I've tried both AB pairs again...
I'd love to post the datasheet, but I did not get any and there was not one on the Ebay.
As I said, I've tested it with osciloscope, though, and only A-B combinations produced an output (not A-A or B-B etc...), and both looked good to me, the other one (bottom contacts) was just inverted...
Here's the link to the Ebay item:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-100PPR-6-Terminal-Eletronic-CNC-Hand-Wheel-Manual-Pulse-Encoder-Generator-/181775994923?hash=item2a52b1902b:g:SlAAAOSwv0tVf~Ta
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Specification:
Terminal: 6
100PPR, pulse per rotation
Diameter: 60mm/2.36", height 30mm/1.18"(Base to face, not including finger rod)
Material: Aluminium alloy
Output: VCC OV B A -B -A
Suitable For CNC Systems, Engraving Machining, ect
Electrical Specifications:
Supply Voltage: DC5V
Output: 100rpm
Temperature: -30 -85°C
Output waveform: square wave
Weight: 210g
Miso
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As Russ has said you have the pin set to 15 for the E-Stop even with no physical E-Stop connected then it will be a conflict in Mach if you have the MPG to that same pin.
I would expect you to go into reset as soon as the MPG is turned.
One other thing, you are using a pirate licence, that may or may not be an issue with the MPG but it is an issue with asking for help from the Mach forum ;)
Hood
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misko,
Since you are using a pirated Mach version we cannot support your requests for any type of assistance
until you resolve the license issue.
Strongly suggest you purchase a license.
RICH
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OK, I've bought the license, I've got the PC with the software already installed with the router. Sorry I never even thought it was pirated, Anyway, I hope that's solved now...
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Only other thing I can see is the MPG (on tab screen) is set to Step/Velocity mode.
That doesn't work great even when set up , much better to have either in Multistep (for small controlled distances) or Velocity for normal movement.
You can also calibrate the MPG via the Function Configs menu, the first two options should be done but personally I wouldn't bother with the last one.
Hood
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I've tried all the optons there, too, one by one, but no movement whatsoever... Also tried to calibrate, same result... Thanks...
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Re-post your most current, last used xml if you don't mind.
Thanks,
Russ
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Are you seeing teh Encoders count up and down on the diagnostics page ???
(;-) TP
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Of course I don't mind, thanks for your help.
I've just put the license file into Mach3 directory, hope that's how it's done, or do I have to reinstall the software?
I've switched to velocity only mode, I was changing modes previously to see if any of them would make the MPG work. I must say I did this more or less blindly, not really knowing what which mode means.
No DRO changes on diagnostic tab either.
I really don't know nearly enough about Mach, as the router just sits on the bench most of the time, getting my attention maybe a couple of days a year, and when I do try to do anything about it, I of course bump into some problem immediately, like this one... Will try to make more time in the future, now I'm not a pirate anymore;)
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All looks fine in Mach as far as I can see so it would seem that the likely culprit is the breakout board.
One thing that may be possible is to scope the output side of the breakout on the pins you have the MPG connected to and see if it is passing the signal.
The other option would be to hack into the parallel port cable and connect the A and B and Gnd directly, you could also take a 5v and Gnd from a USB lead, that way it will be relatively safe. That is the way I used to do it on the Bridgeport, MPG connected directly to the port and powered via a hacked USB cable.
Hood
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Thanks Hood.
I took Vcc and GND from the BOB, and it's getting them directly from the PC's power supply, so I don't think switching this to the USB would change anything, or am I wrong?
I did not check the BOB outputs yet, I don't have the oscilloscope here, but I might put a LED or something to see if there's a signal. And I think I have some sort of LPT "sniffer" installed, so I could use that, too, to see if LPT is getting signals or not.
What I don't understand, however, is, shouldn't the change be visible on the DROs in the first place? I mean, if Mach doesn't register the MPG input and doesn't react accordingly, change coordinates, I guess it most probaly doesn't send anything to BOB either?
Or am I miissing something here, wouldn't be the first time;)
One more thing, I remember seeing somewhere that the pins had to be specified as inputs specifically, but I couldn't fint anythig alike in the Mach, maybe that was in some other version. Just a thought, in case I failed to setup something trivial...
Miso
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If the BOB is not outputting the signals then Mach will not show any response at all, so we need to find out first if the BOB is passing the signals, if it is then the next most likely source of the problem is the port itself as you seem to have Mach set up correctly.
Regarding having to set the pins as Inputs, that is only with the second port, you can specify whether you want pins 2-9 as Inputs or just keep them as standard, ie outputs.
With Port 1 you can not configure them that way, there are 5 fixed inputs on port 1 and 12 outputs
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I have checked the connections again, and found out I had the MPGs GND terminal connected to the wrong terminal on BOB, also marked as GND, but it's obvoiusly not connected to the PC GND. So I connected it to the PC GND terminal, and now there's 5V on the wheel.
I have connected the LED and the corresponding terminals on BOB (13 and 15) are getting the signal from the encoder when I turn it, but this doesn't affect the outputs ( I only have 3 drivers connected, no other outputs).
Jogging via keyboard and onscreen jogger works fine, so I assume Mach doesn't pass the encoder signal to the BOB for some reason.
I'll try to connect to the LPT port directly and let you know if that helped.
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You would need to connect the LEDs to the output side of the BOB, ie the parallel port cable side. If I am understanding all you are doing is showing the inputs to the BOB from the MPG are working.
You need to see if the BOB is passing that signal to the parallel port.
Hood
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I checked the signal on inputs 13 and 15. And I checked the motor output terminals, nothing changes there when I turn the wheel.
I'm really not an expert, how would I check if BOB passes the signal to the LPT?
If I understood correctly about the hacking into LPT directly, I should connect the whhee's outputs directly to pins 13 and 15 of teh LPT cable, and not to the corresponding terminals on BOB? In other words, just eliminating the opto couplers from the equation? I'll try that, too.
If it's of any help, I'm attaching my BOB manual...
Thanks
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I should connect the whhee's outputs directly to pins 13 and 15 of teh LPT cable, and not to the corresponding terminals on BOB? In other words, just eliminating the opto couplers from the equation?
Correct.
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Easiest way to see if the breakout is passing the signal would be put a LED between pin 13 and a Gnd pin and 15 and Gnd (you will get a Gnd on pin 25) on the connector that the port cable connects to.
You should not need the cable connected to the computer for this as long as the breakout is powered.
Hood
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I've tried, it's not passing the signal:(
I've switched to the inverted AB pair, so I could measure the voltage on the BOB terminals 13 and 15, it's 4.1V.
But nothing on the pins 13 and 15 on the BOBs D25 comnector or the cable, why would that be?
I've also detached the wheel, and connected +5V directly to the BOB terminals 13 and 15, that also did not get through, so I guess nothin's wrong with the encoder...
Cable was not connected to the PC during this test, and I also tried without the cable, directly at the BOB connector, same thing, no signal...
The BOB is brand new and it worked fine otherwise, and I don't think there's any setup apart from the jumper for the relays...
In the BOB manual, terminals 13 and 15 are marked as the inputs for limit switches....
Miso
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Just looked at the manual and there is not a lot of info there. What I do see however is there is a connection for 12v to 24v. Could it be your inputs need to be 12-24v?
Looking at the Inputs it seems they are sourcing which means they should have a voltage on them and you connect to Gnd to activate. If that is the case you should be able to put a voltmeter on pin 15 and gnd of the Inputs and you should see the voltage.
Do not have anything connected to pin 15 terminal when doing that.
Hood
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I just managed to make it work;)
Looking at the schematic of the input terminals, I guess that to get the signal out of the BOB, any of the five must be shorted to the bottom (GND) terminal. BTW, this teminal is not connected to any GND or Vcc, and I also tried to just short the two, witn no result, so I guess probably this pin should be connected to the BOB GND.
Anyway, as I was not sure how to connect this, and there was no signal at the output, I opted for the solution similar to what you mentioned earlier, and connected the encoder to the BOB connector directly, and it worked right away.
Thanks everybody for your help and your time. I will try to find out how I could connect it to the terminals, but it's also OK as it is.
OK, now the next question - how could I choose the axis for jogging, except obviously clicking on the onscreen jogger? I still have 3 inputs left, but I don't know how (if at all) this can be setiup in Mach...
Thanks
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Glad it is working.
I think maybe you need to feed power to the BOB at the right hand side where it says 12-24v, that would mean the Gnd is connected to that power supply Gnd and then you would get 12v or 24v coming out of the input connectors depending on the power supply you use.
To see if that is correct you could put an ohm meter on the Inputs Gnd connection and the 12-24v Gnd connection and see if there is continuity, if there is then I think that must be the way it is configured.
Anyway on to your inputs for axis selection.
Easiest way would just be to configure the inputs as OEM triggers in Mach then set up the OEM triggers from Config menu then System Hotkeys, you would enter the OEM code against the triggers you used.
For example if you connect the switch to pin 10 you would go into Ports and Pins, Inputs and set up OEM Trigger to Port 1 Pin 10.
Next you would go to Config menu and System HotKeys and in the box beside trigger 1 you would enter the code for X Axis select. The OEM for that is 185
Hood
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Oh BTW if I am correct then you will not be able to connect that MPG directly to the inputs as it will have 12 or 24v on it, SO BE CAREFUL.
Hood
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- how could I choose the axis for jogging, except obviously clicking on the onscreen jogger?
Thanks
How about just putting the 3 led's on the screen (59, 60 and 61) and toggle through them with AltA on the keyboard ?
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Cable was not connected to the PC during this test, and I also tried without the cable, directly at the BOB connector, same thing, no signal...
Miso
Did you have any power to the board at all ?
Looks like a USB port there, maybe power it with a USB cable. Its opto isolated so it will need power from somewhere other than the PP connection.
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I think maybe you need to feed power to the BOB at the right hand side where it says 12-24v, that would mean the Gnd is connected to that power supply Gnd and then you would get 12v or 24v coming out of the input connectors depending on the power supply you use.
Hood
There may be a regulator on the board to knock this 12 -24 down to 5v TTL.
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- how could I choose the axis for jogging, except obviously clicking on the onscreen jogger?
Thanks
How about just putting the 3 led's on the screen (59, 60 and 61) and toggle through them with AltA on the keyboard ?
I see your mention in the first post .... via the bob.
Maybe a momentary button to 1 input, triggering 175 to toggle through the axis'.
Many use a multi pos. rotary switch to multiple inputs.
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Hood, I think you are right again, GND is connected to the GND of the (12-24V POW). I still don't understand though why I would have to connect this high periferral voltage just to be able to use the switches, and what else could that voltage be used for?. As nothing is connected to these terminals,I wonder if I could just connect this GND to the PCGND, but I think I have already tried something like that and did not get the output... So I don't intend to connect the external power supply, and certainly not connect the encoder to it...
Overloaded, BOB has the 5V supply directly from the PC power supply. I guess the USB is there for the same reason, but I did not try to use it so far, I believe the result would be the same, though. This BOB worked fine so far, until I invented this wheel problem;)
Maybe the solution with onsceen LEDs would work, I'd have to learn how to do it first, though, never tried it before. And I would be interested in Hoods solution, as this way I might be able to assemble some sort of pendant, or add some sort of box on the router itself, as opposed to having to reach for the keyboard or mouse. Sometimes it's not a problem, but sometimes it's simply too far to be able to see the tool AND use the keyboard.
I'll try both, thanks again...
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- how could I choose the axis for jogging, except obviously clicking on the onscreen jogger?
Thanks
How about just putting the 3 led's on the screen (59, 60 and 61) and toggle through them with AltA on the keyboard ?
I see your mention in the first post .... via the bob.
Maybe a momentary button to 1 input, triggering 175 to toggle through the axis'.
Many use a multi pos. rotary switch to multiple inputs.
3 position rotary switch sounds great, and I do have 3 inputs left, but I'm afraid I don't know a first thing about the "triggering 175" stuff, I'd need a more basic explanation, or a link to info I could use to do this... Toggling is also an option, of course, I'd try both, I don't mind reading, if you can tell me where to look...
Thanks,
miso
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To use the rotary switch you would just do exactly like I mentioned with the OEM triggers, I only mentioned the X but Y and Z would be done the same way using the other two inputs you have spare.
Power to centre of rotary switch and the three terminals of the switch connect to each input. I use rotary switches on all my machines for axis select and also MPG increment amount.
It is also possible to use a Brain or the Macropump but the simplest way for what you want is to use the OEM triggers..
Regarding the Inputs possibly being 12 or 24v. Most industrial machines will be 24v I/O, it is much more noise resistant and thus much more reliable. All my machines are 24v I/O, the ones that use the SmoothSteppers I had to convert myself, the ones that use THE CSMIO controllers it is simple as they accept 24v.
It may be possible just to use 5v at that power connection but It may require the higher voltage to trigger the opto.
Hood
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Thanks, will read your post again and try to make it work. I'm leaving tomorrow morning and will be away for a couple of days, will be online but obviously I won't be able to try any of this until I come back. But I will have plenty of time to read and hopefully learn something more about it, maybe see more video tutorials etc... Brain, Macropump, I have yet to dive into the subject, I only have a foggy idea what they are;) But OEM triggers sound simple enough to me...
I'll check if 5V works on teh 12-24V terminals, although I'd expect if this was possible they would be labeled 5-24V. Bt who knows, we'll see...
Thanks again for your help.
Miso
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I'll check if 5V works on teh 12-24V terminals, although I'd expect if this was possible they would be labeled 5-24V. Bt who knows, we'll see...
Miso
I was referring to connecting 5v via the USB socket. I assume that is there as an option to power the TTL signals.
:)
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I will check that, too, Overloaded, thanks. The comment was more of a reply to Hoods last post, where he said it might be possible to connect 5V to the 12-24V terminals...
I've tried to plug the USB too, but I couldn't see any difference, at any rate terminals 10-13 and 15 behaved the same way...
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You should, if the 12-24v Input theory is correct, have continuity between the 12-24v positive connection and the opto. There are resistors there so it will have a resistance equal to them but if you go to the resistor itself it should be 0 ohms.
So if that does turn out to be correct then you should be able to swap out the resistors for ones which would suit 5v. One thing you would have to watch though, is the outputs beside the 12-24v connection may also be using that power source.
Hood
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Thanks Hood.
I won't be at home for the next couple of days, but when I get back, I will take this BOB to the lab and test and try everything we were talking about. I might even be able to post the schematics, as I guess other people with the same device could find it useful. I have 4 or 5 of those, so for me it definitely makes sense learning a bit more about it...
I understand the advantage of the higher voltages, still, looking at the configuration of inputs, I find it a bit odd having to attach an extra power supply in order to, for example, connect the limit switch.
I'll try to change the resistors so everything will work with 5V only.
Miso
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I think the reason for needing the extra power supply is to keep the isolation. If you can change things to make it suitable for 5v Inputs you will still need the power input there I think.
Hood
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I think the reason for needing the extra power supply is to keep the isolation. If you can change things to make it suitable for 5v Inputs you will still need the power input there I think.
Hood
You're probably right. I'll take the BOB to my friend's company (initra.com), they produce all sorts of electronics, optical network switches, stuff like that... They also assemble the electronics for my products, do the programming etc. So, even if I think I can do something myself, I usually outsource everything electronic to him;) I don't think BOB will be a problem for him to grasp...
Thanks,
Miso
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http://www.omc-stepperonline.com/5-axis-cnc-breakout-board-interface-for-stepper-motor-driver-stv2-p-197.html
fwiw
Optional, like the PMDX-107for example. "The board is powered from the equipment side and accepts regulated 5 volts DC, unregulated 7 to 24 volts DC, or 9 to 12 volts AC"
Take your pick, both are the same 5v inside.
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Thanks Overloaded, I will try it when I get back home and post the result.
Miso
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Here is another similar note from the Pokeys 57CNC manual ....
May be similar to yours.
Good luck,
Russ :)
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I will try to connect a power supply first, and if that works, I'll try to trick to work with 5V one way or another. As it works for me connected directly to the LPT, it's now more a principle that a need, I just want to get to the bottom of it...
Thanks for the info.
Miso
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Hi, I'm back and I've tried a couple of things as we discussed above:
1. Connected 12VDC to the external power supply terminals. This works. When I short GND and one of the switch terminals, the LEDs on the diagnostic tab react accordingly, But I'm afraid this is the only option that works, and it's not usable as is for what I wanted to do. Next thing is to try to trick the BOB, so it would work with 5VDC instead of 12VDC. The switch pins are connected to the opto couplers via the 1K resistors. I don't know if tweaking their values would help or not, maybe I'll try tomorrow, as I can't do it at home, too tiny for me;)
2. Next I connected USB cable, but this does't affect the outputs as 12V does. It seems to me it works exactly as when connected to the PC power supply. No changes on te diagnostic tab...
3, And now something I don't understand at all - if no power is connected (not 12VDC, nor USB or 5VDC from PC), I can still jog via keyboard and run the code...
This is a great BOB. Not only can it use wide range of voltages from peripheral and local sources, it even runs without an... Now that's what I call engineering;)
I have measured voltage on the driver terminals, and it is 1.9V. My guess (not that it's worth much) is that BOB gets it from the LPT port and that this is somehow enough, as when I unplyg teh LPT cable, there's no voltage on outputs.
Now my question is, even if I could use that ext. power connection, either tweak it to work with 5V or, theoretically, if I had 12V encoder instead of 5V one, how exactly would I connect the wheel to the BOB input terminals? I guess I can't just connect it like the switch, I would probably have to put some transistors on the switch inputs?
It seems to me it gets more and more complicated, given it already works connected directly to the LPT... But maybe it won't hurt to finish what I started anyway
Thanks,
Miso
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Hard to imagine this $10 BoB being so difficult. (on sale for $6 in quantity) :)
I would try it like this: attached
Plug in the USB and check the voltage at the PC Power terminals, should be 5V (or maybe 3.3V ::)) there.
Hook up A+ and B+ to your input pins.
Russ
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First thing to say is I know very little about electronics but....
If the optos won't work with just 5v on the 12-24v input it will likely be because the resistor values are wrong for that low voltage. You should be able to look up the data sheet of the opto then use one of the LED/Resistor calcs online to work out what would be a suitable resistance for 5v and swap the resistors to that.
Hood
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Overoladed, I tried this first thing and it did not work, but I will try again tomorrow, as I think I did not plug the USB then, but +5V from the PC...
I agree, Hood. This is normal photo transistor optocoupler, shouldn't be aproblem to tweak the resistors, but I can't do it at home, I can barely see the components, let alone soldering;) I'll take it tomorrow under the microscope, or better yet, bribe my friends to do it. I will post the result.
I'm attaching the datasheet, if anyone is interested.
Thanks,
Miso
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I see more clearly now. Looks like you guys are on a roll.
Thanks,
Russ
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I did not see your image before, but it's correct, I used .47K instead of 1K and everything works fine. Thanks.
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Good you got it, only thing I can see as being a possible problem now is if you wish to use the boards 0-10V for controlling a spindle drive, most likely that will require the 12-24v input and you will only have 5v.
Hood
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You're right, I forgot about that one Well you obviously can't have it both ways. In case you need 0-10V to control the freq. converter, then better solution than this one (regarding the wheel specifically) would probably be putting the transistors on the inputs, triggering them with an encoder. That's if you want to keep it kosher, not connecting directly to the LPT...
I only have the small 400W motor on this router, and I plan to use PWM for this, something like this, same motor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0wqWP1FzwI
But for 0-10V, it is a problem of course...