Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaoticone on August 23, 2015, 01:05:12 PM
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Hey Guys, if any of you are interested in helping mold the face and functionality of default screens in future releases of Mach4 we would like to hear from you. This is a trial run and we will see where it goes. Constructive criticism is welcome but if we get lots of unnecessary negative ramblings it will be deleted. Simple statements similar to "I like this *********xx" or "I do not like this ******************" is all that is needed. Debates between varying opinions are welcome as long it stays on point and is done so in a respectable manner. No screen posted here will have any level of tech support backing it at all. Only if it makes it into future releases as a default screen will it be supported.
So to kick this off, download and have a play with the attached screen. The position of the MDI and the MDI execute button will likely be changing. There has already been discussions about the start button starting the G Code that is loaded or executing MDI. My initial thought was there is no reason to have them linked but have since changed my mind. Thinking of a control panel made of hardware buttons there is usually only one start button. What it does depends on what mode the machine is in, MDI or G Code. One idea is to place the G Code display and MDI input in the same group with their own tab. They would populate the same area of the screen. Clicking Cycle Start would execute which ever you have in view at that time. Another thought is to have a selection button that selects what the cycle start button does. I will go ahead and say that pressing the enter key to execute MDI as Mach3 did is not an option at this time and never will be that I know of.
Thanks in advance for your input!
Brett
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Why have a separate MDI "page" if you have an MDI tab in the main "ops" area.
I would vote to eliminate duplicate functionality.
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program page yes,mdi page not needed others fine
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Thanks Guys, glad you caught that. I could not agree more but its much easier to get a little input and delete than delete and have to build a new MDI page.
Do you think the Toolpath page is still necessary? And if so, would you delete the DROs and G Code display to gain an even larger tool path preview window?
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No, especially since the toolpath is nearly the same size.
The toolpath is plenty large as it is on a 1920x1080 monitor, imo.
But, on the Program Run page, the DRO's are twice as wide as they need to be, and the Ref All button is also far larger than needed
Keep in mind that this is all extremely personal, and other may feel very differently.
My preference would be to greatly simplify the entire screen.
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I am with ger21
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Thanks Guys,
A lot of the changes were to do exactly that, simplify and eliminate redundancy. I agree with the Ref all button being bigger than is necessary to. We are still trying to keep it Mach3ish as well. I can hardly wait to see what those with no bounds create. I hope to have time in the near future to spend on a personal one myself. Mach4 has the tools to do things we could not do in 3. There are so many ways to take advantage of display real estate.
When sizing things for the screen I try to base that on how it looks in edit mode. (1024 X 768). I know the DROs look ridiculously long but in mm mode and 1024 X 768 monitors I think they are within reason.
I know there is still a lot to be done but do the buttons flow logically for the most part?
Do you like the extent DROs where they are?
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Do you like the extent DROs where they are?
I rarely use them, but yes, that seems fine.
From my experience, very few new Mach users use 1024x768 monitors, which are probably hard to find these days. I suspect that Most Mach4 users will be new users as well, and will be running 1920x1080 monitors, or laptops with widescreen resolutions.
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attached image would be close to how I would like it just one more button added, all the main tools used everyday on one page is good. FRO, RRO moved to tab used 10 times in 4 years if that.
MDI page removed, every other page is fine.
also it would be good, to not have it look so fancy that is not important to me.
have more keyboard control of screen main tabs on F keys, the bit at the bottom on tab key to move from page to page,
have it so it`s tab or F to page hit enter to select page, then tab to move through page and enter to action or key`s pre set to commands I know you can do it now but more than what can be use now. like what can be done with pokey keyboard.
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The screens all look good on my desktop,1920 X 1080. The problem is when I use my wife's Toshiba 4K laptop, all the screens are usable except the Mach Configuration Screens for Axis Mapping, Homing Limits etc.
The Mach General and Motor Configuration Screens are good. I tried changing every resolution possible, installed 2651, still no change.
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That's because your using Large Fonts, which many people do now on higher res monitors.
The programmers need to account for Large fonts, as they're use is becoming more and more common.
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The problem with having the cycle start button run both G-code and the MDI is that the MDI does not clear after execution.
Therefor, if the operator does not remember to clear the MDI, it will execute again when Cycle Start is pressed.
The multi-line MDI is probably my favorite new 'screen feature' and it would not be nearly as useful if it had to be cleared each time you want to run G-code, especially if it contains a multi-line routine that is run before or after the G-code.
If semantics are the issue, then the buttons could be renamed "G-Code Run" and MDI Execute" or something similar. This way, whatever pre-conceived notions there may be about what "Cycle Start' should do are moot.
In addition to the above arguments, there is the issue of multiple MDI entry points and multiple 'Cycle Start' buttons. How many of each should there be? What would the correct interaction be between them? Should Cycle start check all of the mdi? What if there are different commands in mdi1 and mdi2?
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That's because your using Large Fonts, which many people do now on higher res monitors.
The programmers need to account for Large fonts, as they're use is becoming more and more common.
Thank you very much Gerry,
I had no idea that there were so many settings, went to a lower setting and the screens are better.
Thanks again,
Larry
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Do you like the extent DROs where they are?
I rarely use them, but yes, that seems fine.
From my experience, very few new Mach users use 1024x768 monitors, which are probably hard to find these days. I suspect that Most Mach4 users will be new users as well, and will be running 1920x1080 monitors, or laptops with widescreen resolutions.
I agree Gerry. I dont think I have ever used the extent DROs myself.
I am told lots of machine builders still use 1024 X 768 monitors.
attached image would be close to how I would like it just one more button added, all the main tools used everyday on one page is good. FRO, RRO moved to tab used 10 times in 4 years if that.
MDI page removed, every other page is fine.
also it would be good, to not have it look so fancy that is not important to me.
have more keyboard control of screen main tabs on F keys, the bit at the bottom on tab key to move from page to page,
have it so it`s tab or F to page hit enter to select page, then tab to move through page and enter to action or key`s pre set to commands I know you can do it now but more than what can be use now. like what can be done with pokey keyboard.
Daniell, I don't like any of the sliders in the Screen anywhere myself. I use pots on my machines but for those who do not I think it is critical to always have them in view and the FRO close to the Cycle Start button. Lots will run the first time through constantly lowering and raising the feed. But I did put them in their own groups so you can easily delete them if not needed.
The page control/tab/selection bit is a little tougher. Whats logical for one will not be for another. Adding to that is the Keyboard input plugin. This is why I like touch screens............. until a lady bug crawls around on it. :o So in short, there really is nothing to compete with hardware buttons, sliders, selectors, etc. IMO. I will likely make a screen for those that agree as time allows. Once we get the do all Mach3ish defaults buttoned up deleting is easy. But I am hearing your input and appreciate it.
Thanks Fellas!
Brett
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I have never seen a widescreen on a commercial controller. Well I do know of 1 but it is turned sideways for a standard witdth extra LONG look.
You really need to consider the MOUSELESS approach as most machine do not HAVE or some do NOT allow mouses on a machine tool.
The screens need to be tab enabled and have a set tabbing order (sans HAAS approach) to be ABLE to navigate teh screens easily . ALL the main functions need to be hotkey capable to be able to use {FKEYS} you have CRTL FKEYs ALTFKEYS to work with. On me keyboard there are 96 possible Fkey assignments F1-24 and the double taps Crtl, Alt, etc MOST are useless for Mach4.
THINGS like sliders should be removed as they do NOT work without a mouse. Hotkey a UP /Down button . I use rotary switch controls for these
but you need a keyboard method to use them as well..
DO NOT duplicate functions OVER AND OVER again it is a waste of screen space.
You NEED to keep the basic LOOK and FEEL the same as a commercial controller. The Haas look is one of the best going today. THERE IS a reason it looks plain and SIMPLE to use.
But you will NEVER get any DIY group to agree on a screenset design. It aint gonna happen. It would be like a church group picking out new carpet.
Build a Basic Keyboard enabled screenset (Mach4 EZ)THEN everyone else can build what they want. There is a big market sector that can build customs for them(;-).
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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I have never seen a widescreen on a commercial controller. Well I do know of 1 but it is turned sideways for a standard width extra LONG look.
You really need to consider the MOUSELESS approach as most machine do not HAVE or some do NOT allow mouses on a machine tool.
You really need to define who you're designing the screen for.
Most hobbyists want widescreen monitors and mice. My guess is that those people are the majority of your customers.
Commercial machine manufacturers will want something completely opposite.
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Chaoticone I here ya about nobs after a year or two most people stop using FRO, RRO so could you do a bask screen like yours minus MDI and have one like BR549 and I suggested, over here a touch screen is in $000 so that's a no go. simple is good (and forget the M3 look )
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You really need to consider the MOUSELESS approach as most machine do not HAVE or some do NOT allow mouses on a machine tool.
Build a Basic Keyboard enabled screenset (Mach4 EZ)THEN everyone else can build what they want. There is a big market sector that can build customs for them(;-).
This is one of those occasions when I must agree with Terry. From an operational standpoint, these are the guys that know what works.
My question would be, if no mouse and no physical buttons, are key combinations adequate or should a touch screen be considered?
Also you mentioned tabs.
Assuming a touch screen, would it be better to have a 'menu' , say across the bottom, where you would call up entire recognizable screens or have repositionable pop-ups (i.e. like windows screens) again recognizable, but on screen as long as you need then, placed where you need them, (like not covering the other controls you are using).
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A section of the screen that is perpetually the same and has the most important controls 'in the same place all the time' as you have said in the past, and a separate section (or even a separate screen for that matter) where 'controls of the moment' can be called up and dismissed as needed?
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I have never seen a widescreen on a commercial controller. Well I do know of 1 but it is turned sideways for a standard width extra LONG look.
You really need to consider the MOUSELESS approach as most machine do not HAVE or some do NOT allow mouses on a machine tool.
You really need to define who you're designing the screen for.
Most hobbyists want widescreen monitors and mice. My guess is that those people are the majority of your customers.
Commercial machine manufacturers will want something completely opposite.
I agree with this also. Terry hit the nail on the head, in my opinion, with this comment:
...(Mach4 EZ)THEN everyone else can build what they want. There is a big market sector that can build customs for them(;-).e
'Hobby' is the keyword. There are people like yourself who make screens and vendors can supply screens for their own products. I am working with HiCON controller at the moment and they supply screens for their pendant.
That should be the model for the hobby version. B&B; basic and bulletproof.
A useful tool to supply would be one that makes it simple to add a screen as a tab. This way, If a hobby user got a custom screen from a vendor or designer, it would be a simple matter to integrate it without having to choose between loosing what he has or gaining something new.
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Touch screens are NICE but they also require larger screen elements(buttons) to safely use. control keys/buttons have worked for about 40 years now no reason they still can't.
MACH4 NEEDS to stay focused on FUNCTION not form. The OEMs and $creenwriters can serve the DIY users for custom stuff . Lets get M4 FULLY functional .
THEN we can argue about which of the 30 custom / OEM screensets is the best (;-)
(;-) TP
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MACH4 NEEDS to stay focused on FUNCTION not form. The OEMs and $creenwriters can serve the DIY users for custom stuff . Lets get M4 FULLY functional .
THEN we can argue about which of the 30 custom / OEM screensets is the best (;-)
(;-) TP
Although I agree with this 110%, it is a bit off topic and is splitting the subject. I suggest staying on point and on topic.
Very interesting.
No harm intended TP,
Russ :)
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sounds good BR549, I am moving to a pokeys so I will have buttons for stuff. A mouse can become dangerous, I put mine out of the way but bad thing`s have happened, there just needs to be 3 stock screens nob, key/ button select, touch screen everyone else can do there own screen just keep it simple.
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LOL Daniel, just make the screen I want and everyone else can do their own is what I read. LOL No, in all seriousness, Ill do what I can.
Hows this for a simple screen? Its what I use and all I need. Thanks Hood!
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MACH4 NEEDS to stay focused on FUNCTION not form.
Apparently I was not the only one with this misconception, so at the risk of getting my wrist slapped . . . again . . I think people should be made aware that the core developers are not being re-directed so making fancy (or not-so-fancy) screens. That was my interpretation based on what I read.
Happily, I report that I was wrong and I don't know why this has not been made clear, but this screen initiative is being done by others and the core guys are doing core stuff . . as they should be.
AND . . my apologies if I contributed to giving anyone an impression otherwise.
OK, that's cleared up . . carry on
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Brett, too dark not enough contrast. ;D
It is best to design a screenset in a dark room with a 25wat light bulb to see by. >:D
Also remember that the majority of males(60%) are color deficient in reds and greens. That normally leaves BLUE as the dominant color . HUM wonder why Haas uses blue.
(;-) TP
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BR549 is correct about color I cant see if something is high lighter yellow if I wear a highvis that`s high lighter yellow I cant see very well.
Chaoticone yep but what I wont a lot of other would like, done the time to move up, you screen yes with a few more buttons tool hight, laser zero how the MDI and Gcode is done on other screen.
its just the first screen what need`s to only have what is needed on it, all the day to day run stuff the diag, probeing, offset, all can be on another page.
it would be hard to get right I might just chop and change a page to show what I would like on a first page what you have done is close.
I think if we all did a ruff draft of how you would like a first page to be the day to day screen that would help more.
and the more experienced boys than me should drive what it should look like they have been there done that for sometime so I think there idea`s are good I cant disagree with them I know they are correct
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Terry, that is simply not true. That is a lie promoted by the smurfs who had cornered the blue dye market back in the dark ages. Since then we have evolved, gotten educated and even have an eye crutch station in every Walmart. You need to read the interwebs more. ;D
But no your right. It has something to do with the X chrome of something or others. ;D
The only light I use is my usb keyboard light. I unwired the other switches when I got the power bill.
I always liked the Blue buttons on Fanuc controls better than the Martha Stuart Earth editions that followed. Sorry Martha but the chrome of something or others don't lie!
How about blue buttons with Yellow leds and a black background?
Thanks simpson, that is accurate.
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LOL Daniel, just make the screen I want and everyone else can do their own is what I read. LOL No, in all seriousness, Ill do what I can.
Hows this for a simple screen? Its what I use and all I need. Thanks Hood!
So, is this Chaoticone's or Hood's screen? I don't know about this . . . Looking pretty fancy to me 8)
Very cool looking 3D buttons. A little bling never hurts.
I don't think it is useful to suggest where to place this button or that because it is going top boil down to personal preference, but as a general guideline, I think it *might* be better to group the operational buttons together and the nav buttons together, rather than mixing them in the same area.
Navigation buttons should all be in the same grouping and there should be either a blank space or a 'spare' button for use in adding more 'pages' to the stock menu.
Operational buttons should be in a fixed position so that an operator does not waste precious seconds hunting for a button, but nav buttons are a good place to conserve real estate by using pop-ups for controls that are only used infrequently and with the operators full attention.
Also consider that the screen should be fairly bland while the machine is operating with no problems. It is more difficult to draw the attention of a user to a specific place if the screen is loaded with bright colors.
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The black screen is Hoods Simple touch screen that I have modified a little bit. I think it is a great example of how simple a screen can be used in conjunction with hardware. I have a homemade pendant with MPG and a few hardware buttons.
I agree with the screen not demanding attention unless warranted and screen buttons emulating hardware buttons should be in a fixed position. Obviously the default screens are a compromise at many levels. Not to worry though. They are not the end, only the beginning.
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OK Guys, see what you think of the Gcode/MDIs on the program run page and the machine diagnostics page and how the Cycle start button works with them.
If you like it and think it is time to delete the MDI page I will.
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I have to edit the screen so that the cycle start button text updates when on a screen with a g code display that does not have an MDI tab (which is only the tool path page and it may be deleted as well).
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yep delete MDI and tool path not needed they are a double up`s all the day to day stuff is on the first page I just need to add two buttons and it will do me fine.
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What buttons you gonna add Daniel?
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Its worth noteing that you can have one block of code in the MDI on the Program run page and a different in MDI on the Diags page and swap between pages to run which ever you want. The start button will run what ever is displayed. Omitting the tool path page for now. The whole tool path page will likely be deleted and the Start button will be disabled unless you have a Gcode or MDI display in view.
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Laser Zero and out put what ever the laser is connected to on/off, I have a X, Y zeroing laser what I use for zeroing X, Y and for calibration I have the code for that already.
what you are setting the start button to do will be good for nobs and yes MDI good idea keep that will be good for testing.
can a simulate program run time be added
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Touch screens are NICE but they also require larger screen elements(buttons) to safely use. control keys/buttons have worked for about 40 years now no reason they still can't.
Touch screens do need bigger 'buttons' and there are no physical barriers between them to help prevent pressing the adjacent button accidentally.
Another argument against touch screens is that you need a stylus or bare finger to operate them.
There are solutions to both of these drawbacks and touch screens operable by a gloved finger can be made in such a way that it is impossible to press two adjacent buttons at the same time.
However, to my knowledge, there is currently no convenient solution to the fragile nature of the membrane of the resistive type overlays.
On a console with physical controls, if there are say 20 key combinations that perform different functions, how it the content of the keys communicated to the operator? Is there a display area or keyboard overlay? If not then would there be a Cheat sheet, or does the operator just get used to the commands thru use and remember them?
As a long time AutoCAD user, I automatically press the correct function key without even thinking about it . . . well 5 or 6 of them anyway.
It seems there should be some way to combine these methods and take the best of both.
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there is a we trick you can do with touch screens glue a tiny magnet to ya finger nail then it only needs a gentle touch to trigger the screen what ever, its the same as a stylus
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A few changes have been made and this is likely to be the default set. No guarantees but we may be adding a way for users to easily modify some actions such as Go To Work Zero to include Z moves or not and Stop to include spindle and coolant stop and go to a safe Z position.
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that will do, it will be good as a nob screen, just sim program run time needs to be added.
Stop to include spindle and coolant stop and go to a safe Z position. option only at user`s risk
Go To Work Zero to include Z moves or not thats easy the code`s there Z5/n X0 Y0 A0
or call it Work Safe Z Zero thats what I do
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NOT bad , I do see an empty spot in the lower RH corner that is just big enough for a tool type image display. I have one on my screens. Though not over there.
(;-) TP
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I do engravings that can take a long machining times (8 to 24hours), so I agree that Screen Set needs "simulate program run time" to be added.
This would be very helpful as it was with Mach3 (which was reasonably accurate) in working out how much time the machining will take.
If it takes too long, then this will provide the user with that important information so that other approaches can be undertaken in machining like multiple partial cuts.
Regards,
Mauri.
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One thing I noticed as missing is the TOOL DESCRIPTION. I have no idea what the GUESS is but it does not belong on a screen and that would be a great spot for tool description.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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+1
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I use touch screens almost exclusively w/ MACH, so squareish buttons are great - especially for tasks that are oft used. That way I don't have to sharpen my fingertip so often. I really like the graphics on probe and offset screens. I believe these make it easier to ensure users are doing what they expect - fewer crashes & such. Thanks for the chance to offer feedback, much appreciated.
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I do not see any method of displaying Rotary 4/5/6 Axis on the current Mach4 Screen.
At minimum it should at least be able to show 4 Axis like Mach3.
Regards,
Mauri.
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look at the last screen set Chaoticone posted
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Chaoticone on the work DRO`s for A,B and c it wont show units but in machine DRO`S it will show units
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Blockhead,
I am talking about the Graphical Display portraying the G-Code movement, I can only get 2.5D and when I bring up 4 Axis G-Code it will not display anything.
Unless I missed something!
Regards,
Mauri.
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your right it does not show, but it is doing what it is meant to. I don`t think that`s been done yet ask the mach support team
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Hi. I am trying to modify my Mach4 screen and I have a couple questions for the pros.
First, I use touch screen so I would like to have buttons for the FRO controls instead of the slider that comes on the stock screen. I was able to create the buttons but I don't see where I can map them to the FRO Increase, Decrease, Reset, etc.
Second is I would like to add a Zero All Axis button but again I can't find where to map this.
It seems that the screen editor got changed in the last couple of months and I can't quite find what I'm looking for. Maybe there is documents for it somewhere?
Thanks Brian