Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 04:58:04 PM

Title: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 04:58:04 PM
First off, I am just learning this CNC stuff. I have a little manual experience.
I have a 7 tool changer machine with mach3 on it. I have it working as it should and my tool change macro is working also. It changes to the right tool when I command it manually.
I have BobCAM.
My questions is, how do I load my tools in the tool holders? For example..do I have to precisely measure how deep I put my end mill into the holder? Do I have to precisely measure how deep I put a bit into a chuck?
I am researching all this, but it might be faster to understand if I ask some simple questions one at a time.

In BobCAD you have to tell it your overall lengths and protrusion lengths. Is the overall length the whole length of the tool and holder from the spindle, or the length of the tool before you sink it into the holder?

Frustrating to get going on this.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 06:09:45 PM
There are many ways to do it and all depends on your setup.

You can choose a tool or a probe for a master tool, call the tool and bring it down to just above the surface and then jog up incrementally until you can slip a feeler gauge in, you then set the DRO to the thickness of the feeler. You can then load another tool , jog down as before then whatever the DRO reads (minus the feeler) is the offset for the tool table.

Others have auto routines with a touch off plate wired into Mach.

I use a height setter that I have hooked into Mach so I can set tools up before they are placed into the tool changer.

Regarding BobCAD, you do not really have to set the tool lengths etc, that is just for simulation purposes, so it is entirely up to you whether you enter values or not. I just tend to enter values if it is a ,onger than standard tool when I have to reach way in somewhere, that way the simulation doesn't show the holder crashing.


Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 06:54:13 PM
So, those numbers are not critical? If I did want to run simulations, I could just set them close to about where my tools will end up in the holder?
I guess drawing my tool holder is not critical either?

I do have an econo-probe touch plate that I wanted to use. I also have an econo-probe setup as a probe.
I am still trying to figure out how to wire both those up.

Do you touch off the face of the part, or off the table?
Does it matter what tool you pick as the master?
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 07:04:43 PM
I would not bother changing any of the lengths in BobCAD unless when you simulate it collides with the stock and you know in real life your tool/holder would not as it is longer.

Normally you will touch off the surface of the material and zero the DRO (or set the feeler gauge distance)   in Mach  or if your material is being totally cut on the surface you may wish to set the top of the material as a slight positive value, all depends on your part I suppose.

I have a Haimer 3D taster set as my master tool, I have set its zero position up in the tool table and I manually insert it into the spindle and call the offset I have it set for, that way once it is at zero on the top of the material I just zero Machs Z DRO and any tool called after that is correct.
 If you have a probe then, depending how it works, you could possibly use that as your master tool or you could even have a spare holder with a drill rod in it that you use as the master, in fact you could even just use the spindle nose as the master if you wanted.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 07:09:14 PM
BTW the problem with using, say for example, Tool 1 as a master is if you replace the tool in and do not get it exactly the same position as before,  then all the rest of your offsets are now changed. So much better to use a probe or another known point that never changes.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 07:15:55 PM
So I would always have one of my 7 positions occupied by the probe?
I would probe the surface of the part.
Then set that as zero.
Then have all the other tools hit the touch plate?

Does not make sense to me. I wish their was a video of this somewhere. Will have to look.

I would think the touch plate is used for all heights and the probe for edge finding. I don't think you can touch the probe to the plate either because they would both compress.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 07:26:39 PM
I do not know how your machine works but I can manually operate the drawbar and put a tool in the spindle without using the tool changer, thus I can use all 12 tools in the changer and still use the probe.

As I said I have no idea how your probe works, before I had the haimer I had a home made probe, when it touched the surface of the part the LED on it would go out. There are also other types of probes/edge finders, for example there is the type that complete a circuit through the machine and light up and buzz when contact is made, obviously the material has to be metallic for that type to work.

If you have a touch plate hooked up to Mach you could use one of the macros you should find on the forum to set up the tools.

Personally I like the way I do it, I can set all tools up out of the machine and when I change a worn tool it just takes seconds to reset its new offset. All my height checker consists of is a linear scale and a linear rai. Will post a couple of pics of the two I have made (one for each mill) if I can find the pics ::)

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 07:31:04 PM
Ok found a couple of pics, the  blue one is the first one I made for my Beaver Mill, the other one is the one I made for the Chiron, it is not quite finished in that pic as I do not have the part that touches the tip of the tool made.
Also if you look in that pic you will see the probe I was talking about that I made that had the LED.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 07:34:23 PM
Here is a slightly better pic of the Chiron one, still not finished but it is a better view.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 07:36:08 PM
Here is my machine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjc9--rOPrs

The tools are held in a turret with a snap ring. The tool holders have a bearing on them. It grabs the retention knob and pulls them up in there.
The change is purely mechanical. It just moves Z up past the home and that pulls on things to rotate the turret. It is kind of like a ratchet with a rod that pulls to rotate it to the next spot.

I could probably leave a turret hole open and manipulate Z to just grab and ungrab the tools without going high enough to rotate it.
Maybe that gives you some ideas on how I should do it?
I have two of these:
http://wildhorse-innovations.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=80
One is setup as a probe and the other as the touch plate.

Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 07:37:31 PM
Haha, how funny is that. You have the same tool holders as me. The only difference is mine is a 15mm wide bearing only without the brass plate. I might have some parts you want. I bought some of that tooling and am in the process of converting it to my bearing.

That looks like you put a lot of work into getting that setup. I feel like I am spinning my wheels. Whole weekend gone and about all I did was watch a bunch of BobCAD videos.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 07:48:29 PM
Probably different tool holder, mine are SK30  but think specifically made for Chirons, I have managed to pick up quite  a few, see pics. That is in addition to the 12 in the machine and the ones in the previous pic so probably have about 35, got about 18 with the machine and have picked up the rest off eBay.

Here is a vid of how my tool change works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuxOCikZxU8

Looking at yours, it would seem it may not be possible to load a tool that is not in the changer so you would have to use one of the ones in as a master or swap after  you have set your zero.

Setting up the auto tool plate may be the easiest option for you or you could make a similar setup to mine and do the tool height offsets out of the machine.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 08:00:43 PM
What is the difference in that taper and a bt30 taper? I have tooling that looks just like that and it is the same dimensionally as mine above the bearing. In fact I had to buy Chiron retention knobs. They are exactly the same. However if you ask for Pratt and Whitney Tapemate C stuff, forget it. My machine is basically a Fanuc Drillmate Series C. Their first Robodrill. They changed to a different retention knob and got rid of the bearing though on the next up models.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 08:03:42 PM
They maybe are the same then, think however the BT30 holders are slightly longer on the taper. Maybe they just look longer, I will check tomorrow as I have a BT30 holder at the workshop.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 08:11:13 PM
Here is what I have collected off eBay. I probably bid against you on some of it LOL
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 08:12:22 PM
And here is what I believe to be a tool for your machine next to a tool made for my machine....
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 08:13:13 PM
And here is what I believe to be one of your tools converted to work in my machine by changing the bearing.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 08:16:07 PM
A lot of these ones I think are Chiron only have one notch for some reason instead of two. These are all BT30 basically but with a a bearing on the lower end. The rest of the dimensions are the same if memory serves.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 08:17:49 PM
Certainly look the same or very similar, regarding bidding against me, unless you are in the UK then probably not.

The Chiron ones have special bearings, 12mm thick with a pin sticking out the inner race that fits into a notch in the brass brake. The bearings are over £100 I think but I got 9mm thick ones and just made up thicker brass brakes. I didnt bother about the pins, just made the brass a good tight fit and it does the same job.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 08:21:41 PM
Yes usually have two notches in them but often one is blanked with a screw in plug, that is so they can be held in exactly the same position each time regards orientation to the index mark of the spindles encoder.
The Chiron has only one dog pin and it is spring loaded so that the spindle doesnt need to stop when doing a tool change, heres a close up vid I did for a guy on the forum to show how it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=784P5uA9lro
Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 08:33:34 PM
Think it will hurt anything if I just leave them as one or am I going to need to somehow mill out the other slot? I think mine has two pins, but I am not positive without looking.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 08:38:02 PM
If your mill has two dogs and they are not spring loaded then you will have to have the two slots in the holders or it will not seat in the taper. If the dogs are spring loaded then it probably won't matter if you leave them with just one.
Are they definitely solid?  all mine that have one slot blanked off just have a blank plug screwed in.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2015, 08:45:31 PM
Here is a pic of one of mine with the blank plug, screw has been removed.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 08, 2015, 08:58:27 PM
Looks like it has two and they are spring loaded.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 09, 2015, 03:35:29 AM
Looks like it will be fine leaving the slot blanked off then :)

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 09, 2015, 06:56:05 AM
Just looked at the BT holder and it is longer than the Chiron ones, approx 5mm, see pic.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 09, 2015, 07:08:48 AM
BTW if your machine takes standard length BT30 then you could space out the pullstud on the Chiron holders and they would work.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 09, 2015, 08:01:33 AM
Interesting. I never had a BT30 tool to compare. I believe mine are the same as those Chiron tools I have though. The one I converted to test loads right in and if you flip them and mate them up like you did there I thought they were the same length.
I will double check again tonight and also find a drawing of a BT30 and check. Now you got me curious. I went through all this once before and thought they were the same as a BT30 on the top.
This would knock out my idea of converting some BT30 tools if the need ever arose. I am going to do some measuring when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 09, 2015, 08:24:11 AM
The taper angle is the same just the Chiron ones are shorter.
If yours is the same as the Chiron and you had some BT ones then you should be able to shorten them and they should be fine.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 09, 2015, 08:27:29 AM
I don't have any true BT30 tooling. I just always thought it might be a possibility to convert some somehow......I don't know of anything I need at the moment, but I am still curious. I am going to recheck into this.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 09, 2015, 03:08:21 PM
Made a quick vid to show how the height setter I made works. Afraid the MDI, Pop Up and Tool Table do not show very clear in the vid but hopefully you will get the idea.
As the lowest position on my tool setter is zeroed it effectively becomes my master tool, so I can then call any tool I want and call its offset then touch it off the surface of the material and set that as Z zero and any other tool called will also be correct with regards the Z position.
 As mentioned earlier I have a Haimer 3D Taster that I use for edge and surface finding and as I have it set in the tool table (g43h100) I can use it to set zero and again all tools will be correct.

Anyway here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DAmcLo9IW4

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 09, 2015, 03:42:29 PM
That is a pretty neat way to do it. I have not done anything with tool heights or zeroing the tool or anything yet. I understand the basic idea, but I have not used mach to know anything about how they are entered or stored or anything....yet. I know I won't have time to build anything like that right away though. I will either make due with a feeler or hook up my tool height setter and get it going. Lots to figure out still...
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 09, 2015, 07:36:28 PM
I just did some measuring on my tools and the chiron tools and they are the same. The funny thing is that they do not appear to be SK30 or BT30. Both of those are longer from the specs I can find.

I wonder what the story is behind our two different machines using almost the same tool but being different than all the rest is.
It does look like maybe some Chiron had Fanuc controls. My whole machine was made by Fanuc I believe and just got a P&W nameplate. 
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 10, 2015, 06:25:46 PM
It is not really that difficult to make and it doesn't take long to make either, just a few components. The hardest part would be the taper base holder but easy enough if you have a lathe.


I know Chiron lists it as SK30 but I never bothered looking to see what the specs of that actually were.

I think the later Chirons had/have Fanuc, certainly as an option. The earlyish ones like mine all seemed to have Siemens controls from what I have seen.


Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 10, 2015, 06:39:00 PM
How accurate is measuring them like that vs measuring them when they are in the machine and touching off with an electronic tool touch off device?

For now I have an Econo-probe touch off plate. I might consider something like you have when more time opens up and I know how to make parts on my CNC....working on the CAM learning at the moment.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 10, 2015, 06:43:18 PM
It is very accurate, the glass scale has a resolution of 0.005mm so I suppose it must be about there somewhere, maybe +/- 0.005mm accuracy.

Hood
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: jevs on March 10, 2015, 06:45:49 PM
How do you interface the glass scale to Mach? Is there a thread that you made when doing this or anything?

Also, I was looking at MachStdMill a little today. It says it has some probing functions. Not sure if that is worth getting or not.
Title: Re: Putting tools in tool holders
Post by: Hood on March 10, 2015, 06:58:36 PM
I interface it through the Enc module of the CSMIO/IP-A on the Chiron and use the port 3 Inputs on the SmoothStepper that is on the Beaver mill.
With the CSMIO it writes to a designated user DRO, on the Smoothstepper I just have it writing to one of the encoder DROs.

No don't have a specific thread sas really there is not much too it, the hardware side is simple and all that is really needed in the screen side of things is a button with some VB script in it, for example here is the script for the Chiron, the Beaver is slightly different in that it is a different DRO number, but thats all.
Also made a page up for setting the tools up on my machine, the only relevant parts are really the Zero button, the Set Z button and the offset DRO, all the rest of that screen is specific to my Chiron. (see below)

If GetOemLED(800) Then
MsgBox ("Mach In Reset, Enable and start again")
End
End If

Offset = GetOemDRO(1150)

SetOemDRO(1555,Question("Enter Offset Number"))

Tool = GetOemDRO(1555)

Code "G90" & "G10" & "L1" & "P" & Tool &"Z" & Offset
DoOemButton(121)   


Never used the MSM screens so not sure what is in them but they seem to be good from reports I have seen. Another one that I think has some probing functionality is Ger's 2010 screenset but again have never used it.

Hood