Machsupport Forum
General CNC Chat => Show"N"Tell ( Your Machines) => Topic started by: alloy on March 01, 2015, 11:44:53 PM
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I picked this up a couple of weeks ago for $2500. Also bought a VFD from the guy to control the spindle motor.
I'm planning on using a DSMPC controller and Mach3. A friend of mine is helping me. I'm the machinist he's the electrical wizard.
We are going to try and get the tool changer working. Although I'm not counting on that.
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It looks a lot like my Yamazin, but I wish mine had a tool changer.
Vince
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I owned one of those a few years back. That tool changer is called a Quick Draw and if you watch it work it looks like a gunslinger flipping his gun back in its holster. That is actually the first product sold by Fadal! It has its own electronics which can be flukey.
I saw recently that Primopal is offering a 4300 in/oz nema 42 stepper motor with a Leadshine digital drive the runs off 120-240 vac for about $400 an axis. I think that would be a great setup for this size machine. I'd put an axis on the knee too. Changing tools and getting a set of short tooling to work with a quill Z axis is a real pain.
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The mill has Glentech servos on it so we are going to try and use them.
I know the tool changer is iffy at best. I didn't even know this type of tool changer existed until I saw this one. If it works then great, if not I'll rely on the armstrong tool change method.
I'm not planning on putting an axis on the knee, but want to put a scale on it and hopefully I can get Mach3 to have just a readout for K axis. I posted a question about that but no response yet.
I'm planning on a 4th axis later, but have to get it running first.
I just ordered a MPG for it, next I'll get the scales and reader heads, then the motion controller and breakout boards.
And I'm sure will be more I need to buy.
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A member of this forum (mc) has a Matchmaker which is just a rebadged Shizouka and looks identical in almost every way, not sure how far he has got with retrofiitting it. He purchased it from someone I knew and I was actually going to purchase the toolchanger for my Beaver mill but sadly the pullstuds on my mill were too long for things to work out.
I had gone through to the owners place and we got the toolchanger working, it worked well and was a relatively simple affair. I am sure I have a copy of the toolchangers manual somewhere if it would be of any use (assuming I can find it), it may even have been posted on this forum originally.
Hood
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If you have a manual I'd really appreciate it. Everything helps.
I've been looking for manual for the mill itself but no luck on that at all.
I'm going to order my motion controller this week. I picked up an MPG off Ebay yesterday for it.
I run VMC's everyday at work, I can't wait to have a CNC home :-)
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The manual is attached.
BTW in your other thread when I said about a User DRO, that is the CSMIO that uses it, I also have the Beaver Mill that uses the SmoothStepper and it has a similar setup for the Tool Height Setter. I just used one of the Encoder DROs in Mach.
Hood
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Hood would you happen to have a PART manual for the quickdraw ?
(;-) TP
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Thank you Hood. That really helps.
As far as I know the DSMPC has 8 outputs. So X,Y,Z is 3, one for the spindle drive to the VFD, and one for a 4th axis. That leaves 3 left. My friend said we might use two of them for the tool changer and put steppers on it. That still leaves me one outputs left to use. So hopefully it all works out.
I ordered my scale reader heads today. I'm going with these. Got them for $80 each on a best offer. As soon as we get it all figured out I'll order the motion controller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331258687517?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Afraid not TP, thats all I have, just grabbed it when I saw it posted somewhere, you never know when it will come in handy, as has been evidenced here :)
Hood
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I may be able to get you a part manual. When I got the machine I had all the manuals because it came from a fortune 500 company. I still know the guy who has it now. I'll try to find out in a couple of days.
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I may be able to get you a part manual. When I got the machine I had all the manuals because it came from a fortune 500 company. I still know the guy who has it now. I'll try to find out in a couple of days.
Please post it if you can get it.
Thanks,
Vince
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Well change of plans. Vital systems was 2-4 weeks out on shipping the DSMPC so I looked on Ebay and got this for $900. He was local so I picked it up tonight.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f107/alloyspecialties/20150307_173709_zps6lp6qzg5.jpg) (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/alloyspecialties/media/20150307_173709_zps6lp6qzg5.jpg.html)
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I just found a Quick Draw tool changer and would be interested in pictures of how yours is mounted to your mill. Mine is on a pallet and I did not get to see it mounted to the machine.
Thanks,
Vince
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Did you get the one off ebay (;-) ?
(;-) TP
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Did you get the one off ebay (;-) ?
(;-) TP
Yes, but it is a lot bigger than it looks in the picture. It's actually over 5' long.
Vince
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The tool chain system makes it LARGER and harder than it needs to be. Let me know if you decide not to use it I may be interested.
(;-) TP
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The tool chain system makes it LARGER and harder than it needs to be. Let me know if you decide not to use it I may be interested.
(;-) TP
Where are you located?
Vince
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Florida 8)
(;-) TP
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Couple of pics of the one mc now owns, might not be much help but basically it bolts along the length of the ram.
Hood
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Thanks, that helps a lot.
Vince
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Some photos of my Matchmaker can be found at https://www.flickr.com/photos/mc_mtb/sets/72157632396902054/
If you need anything specific, let me know, as I've finally got some spare time again. I would of replied sooner, but work levels have been far too high the past couple months.
It's still not finished, due to various reasons, but it may be up and running this year, as I've got a couple jobs where it would make life a lot easier.
The only thing I really need to buy now to get it up and running, are servos and assorted wiring bits. I've had a KFlop+Kanalog+Konnect for nearly a year now, just not got as far as putting it in the cabinet.
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Any and all pics help believe me.
I've got my power cabinet almost done. I'd post a pic of it but for the life of me can't figure out why I can't. I did it before but for some reason I can't now.
I also have about 98% of the parts I need now. We are finding new things as we go that are needed. I'm away from it for 2 weeks now unfortunately. I wish I could work on it everyday.
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Ok lets see if this works for pics.
http://s46.photobucket.com/user/alloyspecialties/slideshow/shizouka
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Been awhile since posted anything about my build. We have come a long way since I last posted.
This weekend w got the mill motors under power and controlled by the Galil. The tool changer arm and clamp are also working. My friend Jim has built a gear box to move the chain using a stepper motor and new electrics.
When I bought the mill the motors had the wires cut and the servo drives and transformer were in a box and we had no idea if they worked or not. Well thankfully they all work, and work very well. We are using Renishaw linear scales that have 1 micron resolution. We have them on and working and talking to the Galil along with all the limit switches. I found one damaged limit switch from an apparent crash. I was able to repair it. The iron is in pristine condition and not a scratch on any of the ways. We are guessing the the damaged limit switch, burned out out air solenoid were why the machine was taken out of service.
My friend Jim is the brains behind this build. In my entire life no one has ever been so kind as to help me like this. He's an awesome guy. I believe he signed up on here a few days ago.
I've tried to post pics. but I can't for some reason. Also tried to link them to photo bucket but just won't work. Anyone know how I can post some pics?
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There is an "Additional Options" link at the bottom left, when your typing your post. Please resize pictures if needed, so the picture does not fill up three football fields, and so the dial-up users are able to enjoy them as well. Thank you for sharing! We love pics :)
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Well lets see if this works. I did resize them 50% smaller, but I went even smaller yet.
This is the gear box my friend made.
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Here are pics of my control cabinet, the Z axis box with the Renishaw linear reader head and my control pendant. All the switches used are lighted except the rapid travel, spindle sped, and feed rate over ride.
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Looking good.
How are you controlling the toolchanger?
Interfacing to and using the original control boards, or have you replaced the boards with additional Inputs/Outputs(relays) via the Galil/Mach?
I'm in the process of removing all the original control boards from my Shizouka, so I can move the control to the KFlop.
I've been working my way through the Summit manual/wiring diagrams to work out the actual tool cycles (I'm very impressed by how it's managed with minimal components!), and I think I've got it figured out, but would be interested to hear what sequence you're using.
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We ripped out all of the control wiring for the TC (and everything else on the machine for that matter). There are only 2 solenoid valves that control the TC, one for the clamp, and one for the arm. This machine had 2 additional solenoid valves that I think controlled the speed of the arm in various parts of the cycle, those came out also.
The solenoid valves are maintained position valves, and only require a 200ms pulse to shift. Not the best control scheme, but it works. There are 4 switches that are important, the arm in position limit switches (spindle and tool), and the clamp open & closed pressure switches. There is one additional limit switch that reads some mid-position of the arm, not useful in this application.
We used small PLC relays with low current, 24VDC coils to interface with the Galil controller. The relays are also available in a 5VDC coil depending on your needs. All of the control code is in the Galil controller. As soon as I figure out how to do it, Mach3 will send a tool change request to Galil, and Galil will fire back a ''OK, I'm done'' message when the tool change is complete.
I think your KFlop has the same capabilities as the Galil, it just programs in C or C++ rather than DMC code.
The relays are the little black modules on the panel, these are in banks of 4 relays. Only 4 are used for the TC. The red solenoid valves control the TC, the other 3 valves control the spindle brake, the power drawbar, and the one on the lower right dumps the air pressure to the TC manifold on E-stop.
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Thanks for that. Going by your description, and the photo, mine seems to be a different design in terms of how things are controlled.
The TC alone on mine has 7 solenoids - Master Air, Arm In, Arm Out, Air Retard (cushions the arm during tool out), Claw Open, Claw Close, and PDB Engage. The spindle brake solenoid is mounted inside the main casting, along with a Master Air and Hi/Lo gear solenoids. I've not managed to get any details of the TC solenoid valves themselves as they're all shoe horned into where you've mounted the relays, but the solenoid coils are 220V, and everything points to them being a mix of normal 2/3 and 3/5 valves.
I suspect the controls on mine were actually UK sourced/produced, as it has a Made in UK by Sculpture M/C plate with serial number on it, however all the functionality and schematics are an almost perfect match to the Summit manual I have. The PDB control board also has a Ltd company name on it, with the main control board having no company details.
My plan is to mount a bank of DIN rail relays/holders where the original control boards were (underneath/to the rear of the main cylinder - that area on mine is full depth unlike yours), and run everything around to a Konnect (KFlop IO expansion) board in the main control cabinet.
I did consider a PLC (I used one on my lathe ATC as Konnect boards were't available then), but the KFlop with a Konnect board will quite happily handle everything, be a similar cost, and keeps all the programming in one place.
I'd post a photo showing the layout of my TC, however I've just realised I've not got one. I'll try and get one tomorrow, but I've not taken the door and frame of yet.
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The TC alone on mine has 7 solenoids - Master Air, Arm In, Arm Out, Air Retard (cushions the arm during tool out), Claw Open, Claw Close, and PDB Engage. The spindle brake solenoid is mounted inside the main casting, along with a Master Air and Hi/Lo gear solenoids. I've not managed to get any details of the TC solenoid valves themselves as they're all shoe horned into where you've mounted the relays, but the solenoid coils are 220V, and everything points to them being a mix of normal 2/3 and 3/5 valves.
You are spot on. I should have been more clear, my fault. There actually were 7 solenoids as you described. I counted valves rather than solenoids. The Arm and Claw valves both have 2 solenoids. I removed the Air Retard valve, not needed IMHO. The PDB engage, and spindle brake still exist.
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Here is a link to the entire build so far on Hobby Machinist.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/shizouka-an-s-build.33868/
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Thanks for the link alloy. I had a read through the build, and it looks good.
I removed the door and frame from mine today so I could get the valve block pulled out, and the double valves are indeed 5/2 type, so only need a pulse to activate, however the coils are rated for 100% duty cycle, so keeping them active isn't an issue. A photo of my partially stripped TC can be found at https://flic.kr/p/wrjSaX
I've been going through the wiring diagrams, and I'm quite amazed at how the tool change sequences were done with relatively basic components.
Do you have the tool in/out buttons connected via the computer, or just direct to the valves/pdb?
I've been thinking about what switches I'd like to keep, and what ones to remove, so I'd quite like to hear how you've done things.
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The switches are connected to the computer and the outputs are from the computer that drive the valves. I did it this way so the computer can handle the tool change as well as operating manually. When the TC is in manual mode, the buttons are available for use, when the TC is in AUTO control is only by the computer. When in OFF, none of the TC, PDB works. There is a TC Manual subroutine running in thread 0 on the Galil controller. I use thread 0 running in a continuous scan for all of these types of functions, as well as E-stop and other error monitoring. The Auto TC sequence will run in it's own thread when called by Mach3.
The buttons/switches are
Tool In, BP
Tool Out, BP
Spindle Brake On/Off, 2 Pos, Sel Sw, Maintained
Auto/Off/Man, 3 Pos, Sel Sw, Maintained
Claw Open/Close, 3 Pos Sel Sw, Spring return, Center Off
Arm Tool/Spindle, 3 Pos Sel Sw, Spring return, Center Off
Turret CW/CCW, 3 Pos Sel Sw, Spring return, Center Off
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I have the tool changer working in full auto now. All under Galil control. Now I just need to get Mach3 to tell it what tool to grab next, and when.
Here's a YouTube video of it in action https://youtu.be/pHRFHeFeNcY
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Looking good. The stepper on the carousel certainly speeds things up.
How are you getting the holders on position with the stepper?
Just relying on the correct number of steps, or have you added another sensor?
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This is faster than the original? I never saw it run with the original drive.
I tell it how many steps to run, then I double check the position with a prox sensor that reads the sprocket teeth. That way it compensates for any backlash in the system or lost steps. The prox is hiding under the gearbox.
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Here is a pic of the prox sensor.
Well..................that didn't work.
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Lets try it again
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I'd say your stepper system will be quicker if you're moving more than one tool position.
The only vid I'm aware of is this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8opxZLSAvN8
The carousel does seem to reach a higher speed, but with the Geneva mechanism, it essentially stops every tool position, but with the stepper system you should be able to hit max speed until you need to stop for the next tool.
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We got more accomplished on the mill. Other than one very small item all the wiring is finished.
W were working on figuring out mach yesterday and had a problem with the Z axis limit switches. When we homed the quill mach didn't like that much at all. Got that fixed and we were back to running code. Jim had the torque limits set low so we could check things out and not crash and everything worked well.
Then we opened up the torque limits in the Galil and changed the feed rate in the G code and everything stopped working. The program starts and as soon as it gets to a point where it has to move an axis it just stops. Tried changing the Z axis G0 to a feed move but no change.
Any ideas anyone?