Machsupport Forum
Third party software and hardware support forums. => SmoothStepper USB => Topic started by: Pompey Dockyard on January 27, 2015, 05:03:48 AM
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Hi All,
I have been using my mill via the parallel port for years with no problem but recently fired up a laptop, to use a USB SmoothStepper.
All was fine under PP mode, I could enter the required speed and Mach3 would see the spindle index pulse and regulate the spindle speed according to what it was set to with the S command, speed regulation was very good (PWM mode).
On my laptop, I have the SmoothStepper with no BoB using Port 1 only - i.e., nothing connected to port 2 and no other connections.
SmoothStepper is connected directly to a Xylotex XS-3525/8S-4 stepper driver board. A Homann Designs Digispeed XL remains connected to the Xylotex board's break out screw terminals.
I am using Mach3 version 3.043.062 and SmoothStepper version 2.08.24 with V17fe.m3p file. I was using an earlier version of all but upgraded to those when I struck the problem described below - I still have the problem.
I copied my PP XML file to the laptop and set up smooth stepper with the plugin etc.
X, Y, and Z axes work fine and I can fine tune steps and backlash OK.
I can start the spindle and stop the spindle using M3/M4/M5 commands via a Homann Designs Digispeed XL using PWM and Mach3 displays a speed when the spindle is running.
However if I set the speed with an S command, to say 500rpm, when a M3/M4 command is executed the spindle immediately ramps up to top speed (e.g., 1700rpm) and stays at that speed.
It doesn't matter what speed I enter with the S command, the result is the same.
I can see rpm's in Mach3 but they are not stable.
For instance, irrespective of what speed is entered in Mach3 I get a constant spindle speed of 1700rpm (verified with a second spindle sensor/display) and I see the Mach3 display of 1700rpm intermittently fluctuate upwards by as much as 600rpm momentarily, the second rpm display remains constant at 1700rpm.
I have tried two different spindle sensors with Mach3 with the same result.
I've tried different Ports/Pins, Motor settings, and Spindle settings in Mach3 but nothing I do rectifies the problem.
Here are my current settings:
Motor Outputs Ports / Pins
X. 2 / 3
Y. 4 / 5
Z. 6 / 7
Spindle. 14 / 17
Step/Dir Port 1. Dir - active low, Step - active high
Input Signals Ports / Pins
Probe. 1 / 12
Index. 1 / 15
EStop.2 / 2
All active high
Note: I could not get Estop to work on my original PP settings of port 1 and pin (2?) - (I can't remember what it was set to), so why it works on a port 2 setting when I don't have anything connected to it is a mystery!
Output Ports / Pins
#1. 1 / 1
Active low
Encoder/MPG's
MPG #1. 1 / 10 and 1 / 11 counts 4/vel 100
I have not tried using the MPG device with SmoothStepper yet but it worked fine with those settings on PP.
So, can anyone put me out of my misery and tell me what I am doing wrong?
TIA,
Dave.
???
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take a look at the last couple of pages here, it is about spindle set up with the SmoothStepper: http://www.soigeneris.com/Document/Warp9/Installing_and_Configuring_the_SmoothStepper.pdf
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take a look at the last couple of pages here, it is about spindle set up with the SmoothStepper: http://www.soigeneris.com/Document/Warp9/Installing_and_Configuring_the_SmoothStepper.pdf
Hi Jeff,
I had already looked at that document, and all the others referenced in this forum for USB SmoothStepper spindle control, but it (and they) was (were) no help.
However I will re-read the last few pages and have another play, but I'm busy with other stuff at the moment so it might be a while before I can do that and report back.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers,
Dave.
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If you can post a copy of your Mach3 profile I'll have a look.
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If you can post a copy of your Mach3 profile I'll have a look.
Jeff,
I'm having trouble posting the file, don't understand why I get this message when I try to attach my SmoothStepper.xml file:
"Sorry! There is already an attachment with the same filename as the one you tried to upload. Please rename the file and try again."
I tried several times and got the same message.
So... ???
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OK, let's try again with the file re-named.
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Jeff,
Did you get around to looking at the file I posted?
Since then I have tried every combination of ports/pins/settings I can think of, with no fix.
I have followed a couple of suggestions/documents that were posted by others with similar problems but they didn't help at all.
I hooked my mill back up to my old desktop PC parallel port (bypassing SS of course) and it all works fine - total, accurate spindle control at whatever speed I enter.
As mentioned before, I can see Mach3 displaying the spindle speed but it is not stable.
I use Windows XP Pro on two PC's, one a desktop and the other a laptop, the problem I am getting is when I use the laptop. I will try running USB SS from the desktop machine to see what results I get from that.
Please have a look at my uploaded file and let me know if you if it's OK or not.
Thanks,
Dave.
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Did you ever get the USB SmoothStepper to control spindle speed or did you give up on it too?
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Did you ever get the USB SmoothStepper to control spindle speed or did you give up on it too?
Hi Bill,
Not yet, I had to suspend investigations due to my breakout board deciding it didn't want to play ball. I'm waiting for its replacement to arrive before I will be able to get back to it.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Did you ever get a response from Jeff about your configuration xml?
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Did you ever get a response from Jeff about your configuration xml?
Unfortunately, no - for some reason it seems to have been ignored. :(
Through lots of twiddling with settings (which I now cannot remember) I did manage to get the spindle to be somewhere near the correct Mach3 entered speeds for the low speed pulley but speed control was not linear and was way off for the high speed pulley (only two pulleys on my mill) despite me trying everything I could think of.
Note that Mach3 via the PP is always in complete, accurate, control of the spindle speed and I never have to tell it that I have changed pulleys.
It appears to me that (with the SS connected) Mach3 does not have any control over the speed entered whatsoever, despite it receiving and showing the actual spindle speed. I have tried all the suggestions for SS settings but none of them fix the problem.
Why the heck it has to be so arcane is beyond me... ??? Surely someone can give me a complete list of Mach3 and SS versions, and settings for both, that WORK!
I'm seriously thinking of junking the SS and buying one of these (http://cncdrive.com/UC300.html) and maybe buying their software too (http://cncdrive.com/UCCNC.html)
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When trying to set up spindle control there are lots of small parts to consider. How is your spindle controlled? Simple relay or do you have some sort of VFD or speed control. What sort of interface signals does the spindle controller take? What sort of PWM or Steps/Direction converter are you using? There are also a couple of SmoothStepper specific settings to be aware of but mostly spindle control is the same with the parallel port or SmoothStepper.
Take a look at: http://www.soigeneris.com/Document/Warp9/Installing_and_Configuring_the_SmoothStepper.pdf . Toward the end of this PDF I describe the major steps in getting spindle control working. Note that you have to find out what specific settings your PWM or Step/Direction board require. For example a PWM converter will have a base frequency that it is designed to run at and you have to program this in the SmoothStepper configuration. If you have a Step/Direction board then it will have a maximum step frequency that it is designed to work at.
Hope that helps...
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Yeah, I agree, why did he ask for the xml if he was only going to spout off about reading the documentation which we have done a hundred times. I am beginning to think he doesn't have a clue either.
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Guys, please understand I DO NOT work for Warp9. I have a full time job and I run Soigeneris. Even though I have very little free time I still try to pop in on all the forums and help people out. If I miss something every now and then I'm sorry, I'm only human.
I posted the link to the documentation for you Bill as your message did not really say much about what you were working on, what you had tried etc. Since I just added the spindle information to the documentation a few months ago it is possible that when this tread started back in January it was not there.
It is not very encouraging to go out of your way to help other people out and then have them piss and moan because you don't do it fast enough.
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Here is an updated XML for Pompey. In short the problems were that you did not configure the SmoothStepper for spindle control, you have to set the base frequency and spindle type in the SmoothStepper configuration dialog. I also turned off the spindle PID feature in Mach 3 Ports&Pins spindle tab; it does not work with external motion controllers (and does not always work well with the parallel port either.) Also in the SmoothStepper configuration all of the maximum Axis Step frequencies were incorrect for your steps/unit and feed rate. The formula for calculating this setting is in the documentation I linked to above. The Spindle setting in Motor Tuning were also not correct, the information on how to configure the Spindle Motor Tuning is in the documentation I linked to as well.
You also need to set up your pulley settings to match your machine. Since I don't know this information about your machine I could not set it correctly.
I hope this helps. Remember I'm helping here just to be nice...
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Sorry Jeff, you seemed to be the only one providing any type of support for the Smooth Stepper so I thought you worked for them. The same topic has been raised on the warp9 board several times.
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Yes spindle control comes up a lot because it is fairly involved as you have the Mach3, SmoothStepper, BOB, PWM or S/D converter and your VFD/speed control. You have to figure out enough about all of them to wire things up and then to configure each one of them to work together. Programming a by itself itself can be very complex.
Now add in the fact that everyone has a different machine, which is wired differently, and it is not a matter of having a list of settings in a manual as the settings are unique to each machine.
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Hi Jeff, Sorry for the delay, have been busy with other things.
Thanks for looking at my XML and posting a revised version.
However the revised one did not work. Every time I issued an M3 command the spindle immediately ramped up to top speed, irrespective of what S command was issued.
Going into the Pulleys settings caused the spindle to ignore any M3 or M4 commands and refuse to rotate, the only way to get any spindle control back was to reboot the PC and the SS.
That happened every time I changed a pulley setting.
I tried a different PC, a different USB cable and anything else I could swap around or change but still the same result.
I went back to my previous XML (a later one to the one you looked at) that I had had some success with and it still worked OK, I then managed to tailor the pulley settings to get spindle speeds somewhere near to the entered S commands but I'm not happy at all with the way the SS handles spindle speeds - compared with the original PP connection it's a dog's breakfast. :'(
Thanks for your help anyway.
Dave.
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Are you trying use the spindle speed PID in Mach 3? If so turn it off and also delete any file in the Mach 3 folder/macro folder called 'linearity.dat'.
The SmoothStepper just generates pules, just like the parallel port. The only difference is that for a PWM spindle you can set the acceleration. The SmoothStepper and parallel port both adjust the output in a linear fashion, i.e. 50% speed output is a 50% duty cycle square wave output. Any non-linearity is the result of your speed controller/motor. The spindle speed PID Mach 3 is a function of the parallel port driver and it can help with non-linearity problems (sometimes it works OK and sometimes it does not). It does not work with an external device so if you have it turned on or have a linearity .dat file it will screw things up.
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Are you trying use the spindle speed PID in Mach 3? If so turn it off and also delete any file in the Mach 3 folder/macro folder called 'linearity.dat'.
The SmoothStepper just generates pules, just like the parallel port. The only difference is that for a PWM spindle you can set the acceleration. The SmoothStepper and parallel port both adjust the output in a linear fashion, i.e. 50% speed output is a 50% duty cycle square wave output. Any non-linearity is the result of your speed controller/motor. The spindle speed PID Mach 3 is a function of the parallel port driver and it can help with non-linearity problems (sometimes it works OK and sometimes it does not). It does not work with an external device so if you have it turned on or have a linearity .dat file it will screw things up.
Jeff,
You said that you had turned off the PID in the file you posted for me, I haven't checked as I do not know anything about the PID! ???
What is the PID and how do I turn it off if it is set? I know where the settings are for it (I think) but that's all, the numbers in the boxes and the check box combinations are a dark art as far as I am concerned.
What do the letters P I D stand for?
I will check for the presence of a linearity.dat file
As I have said before a few times, my speed controller works consistently and flawlessly under Parallel Port control (and still does if I try it) so there is no question of the speed controller or the motor being at fault.
Thanks,
Dave.
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I have had that runaway with a M3 startup also. I think I fixed it with changing the step/dir active high/low settings. I haven't been playing with that for awhile.
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I have had that runaway with a M3 startup also. I think I fixed it with changing the step/dir active high/low settings. I haven't been playing with that for awhile.
Bill, I'm not using step/dir for my spindle - it is PWM.
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Just about to return the ESS I just bought. Can't get it to operate the spindle at all. Been reading everything I can to try and figure it out, unfortunately most "fixes" are using a Gecko and I am not.
So I can control everything just fine using the parallel port. Problem is I'm having other problems with the parallel port so I figured I'd try the ESS. I have everything working through the ESS except the spindle.
I should Say I tried warp9 support without any reply. Guess he doesn't provide support any better than his documentation.
My setup is mach3 to a Hobbycnc board and a SuperPid for spindle control. I use pin 16 for on/off and 17 for PWM. I'm being told the ESS can only use pin 14 for PWM, so I'm gonna try that but that seems unlikely.
With the settings I have now, I can still control everything through the parallel port. So if I insert the ESS into the mix, I do still get the 5v on the "Run" pin of the SuperPid, and it goes to 0v when mach3 turns on the spindle, but the SuperPid does not turn on the spindle.
In Mach3 spindle setup, I have both M3 and M4 set to output 1. In outputs, output 1 is enabled port 1 pin 16 active low.
Mach3 motor control, "Use Spindle Motor Output" is checked, "PWM Control" is checked with a 50hz base freq.
No other changes to spindle setup tab.
In Motor Outputs, Spindle is enabled, Step port 1 pin 17, Dir port 1 pin 16 Active low.
Motor tuning, spindle set to 1000, 60 and 1 as suggested.
The ESS has all max Step Freq set to 1M as suggested. PWM is checked with a base freq 0f 50Hz.
Anything I'm missing here??
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>>Guess he doesn't provide support any better than his documentation.
There have been 30+ posts on the warp 9 forum in recent weeks. When did you try to get help?
>>I'm being told the ESS can only use pin 14 for PWM,
No true, it can output a PWM signal on any output pin.
>The ESS has all max Step Freq set to 1M as suggested.
As suggest by whom? 1mHz is too high for most systems. Take a look at: http://www.soigeneris.com/Document/Warp9/Installing_and_Configuring_the_Ethernet_SmoothStepper.pdf for the formula for calculating the max step frequency for your machine. This has no impact on your spindle issue most likely.
As I recall a lot of folks use a USB cable from the PC to get 5V for the SuperPID. The ESS is isolated from the PC (Ethernet connections are isolated on both ends), and if you are using a separate 5V power supply for the ESS as Warp9 (and I) recommend then you wind up with no common 'ground' (DC Common) between the SuperPID and the ESS.
I also seem to recall there was someone on the Warp9 forum last year who had issues with a SuperPID...
http://warp9td.com/index.php/kunena/7-general-discussion/5182-mach3-ess-g540-superpid?start=18#7327
I think your PWM base frequency might not be right. From the post above and other related posts it looks like the SuperPID requires a 1000Hz (1kHz) base frequency.
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>>Guess he doesn't provide support any better than his documentation.
There have been 30+ posts on the warp 9 forum in recent weeks. When did you try to get help?
I emailed the support address. No reply.
>>I'm being told the ESS can only use pin 14 for PWM,
No true, it can output a PWM signal on any output pin.
I thought as much, seemed odd to lock it to one pin.
>The ESS has all max Step Freq set to 1M as suggested.
As suggest by whom?
The ESS Manual. The Warp9 website. I guess you can say the developer of the ESS.
1mHz is too high for most systems. Take a look at: http://www.soigeneris.com/Document/Warp9/Installing_and_Configuring_the_Ethernet_SmoothStepper.pdf for the formula for calculating the max step frequency for your machine. This has no impact on your spindle issue most likely.
As I recall a lot of folks use a USB cable from the PC to get 5V for the SuperPID. The ESS is isolated from the PC (Ethernet connections are isolated on both ends), and if you are using a separate 5V power supply for the ESS as Warp9 (and I) recommend then you wind up with no common 'ground' (DC Common) between the SuperPID and the ESS.
I also seem to recall there was someone on the Warp9 forum last year who had issues with a SuperPID...
http://warp9td.com/index.php/kunena/7-general-discussion/5182-mach3-ess-g540-superpid?start=18#7327
I think your PWM base frequency might not be right. From the post above and other related posts it looks like the SuperPID requires a 1000Hz (1kHz) base frequency.
So are you saying it needs a common ground or it doesn't?? I have all components grounded together, can't understand why anyone would suggest otherwise.
As for the base freq, that comes right from the SuperPID manual. 50hz. But I tried 1k as it was the default for the ESS anyway, still no good.
As for the forum post you linked to , I'm not a member of that forum and I doubt I will be joining but the title says Gecko so I don't think it would apply to me anyway as I don't use a Gecko and that changes a lot. My spindle control is coming directly from Mach3, so with the ESS, it would be directly from the ESS to the SuperPID, not going through any other BOB's.
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>>I emailed the support address. No reply.
A manufacturer can get 100+ support emails a day. Your email may also have been caught in a spam filter, the replay to you may have been caught in a spam filter and there may have been email server problems. I have had all of these happen to me when trying to communicate with my customers in the last 5 years.
>>So are you saying it needs a common ground or it doesn't??
>>I have all components grounded together, can't understand why anyone would suggest otherwise
Because you generally don't want everything 'grounded' together. The Ethernet cable provides isolation from PC to ESS. This helps prevent electrical noise from getting back to the PC and also prevent ground loop issues between machine/control and PC. The term 'ground' can mean 'Earth Ground', i.e. the ground rod driven into the Earth that your AC breaker box is tied to and it can also mean 'DC Common', i.e. the negative/return/common side of the DC circuit. Earth Ground and DC Common are different things and should not be intermixed.
>>As for the forum post you linked to , I'm not a member of that forum and I doubt I will be joining
So you won't join the support form for the manufacturer of the equipment you are trying to install. But you will come on here and complain about not getting any support form them? That makes NO sense to be honest with you. If you would bother to read the post I linked to and perhaps even use the forums 'Search' tool you might learn something. It makes no different to the SuperPID where the PWM signal is coming from. Since you are not using a BOB how are you connecting the ESS with the SuperPID?
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>>I emailed the support address. No reply.
A manufacturer can get 100+ support emails a day. Your email may also have been caught in a spam filter, the replay to you may have been caught in a spam filter and there may have been email server problems. I have had all of these happen to me when trying to communicate with my customers in the last 5 years.
Or maybe he just isn't replying. Any of the above is possible.
>>As for the forum post you linked to , I'm not a member of that forum and I doubt I will be joining
So you won't join the support form for the manufacturer of the equipment you are trying to install. But you will come on here and complain about not getting any support form them? That makes NO sense to be honest with you. If you would bother to read the post I linked to and perhaps even use the forums 'Search' tool you might learn something. It makes no different to the SuperPID where the PWM signal is coming from. Since you are not using a BOB how are you connecting the ESS with the SuperPID?
So you're saying emailing for support is not acceptable??Why would I have to join a forum I don't want to join? That makes no sense to me.
As I said, the ESS is connected directly to the SuperPID on the pins being used. So pin 16 from the ESS goes to the RUN input, Pin 17 from ESS goes to the PWM input.
Reading a post from a someone who uses a Gecko will do me no good.
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I am saying that you should avail yourself of multiple avenues when needing help. Support forums are great because chances are if you have a question someone else has already had that same question and had it answered on the forum so you can search the forum and find the answer you need most of the time. Again, it DOES NOT matter if the PWM signal went from the ESS 'through' the G540 to the SuperPID. The SuperPID has no idea, and in either case the ESS is generating the signal and has no idea what is receiving the signal. have you tried to measure that you are getting the PWM signal at the SuperPID?
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As an update for anyone else having problems with the ESS and SuperPID combo, I got on/off to work by powering both units from the same source. I used the USB port on the pc first, worked fine. Now I have them both powered from a 5v 2a power supply and they are still working fine. Came down to the SuperPID manual saying that the Pid MUST be connected to the pc, well, now the ESS sends all teh signals so it needs to be connect to the ESS.
Still didn't have PWM working. So I kept trying things. I got it working but I didn't know why so I tried to undo what I did and redo it to see if it will work again. I don't want some system that works sometimes but no one knows why! So I could not get it going again. Then I changed the Mach3 motor control to Step/Dir. Works every time now. I did notice the data monitoring would not show the spindle checked (in jogging section) even though the actual spindle was working. This was when PWM didn't work. Every time the spindle jogging WAS checked, PWM worked.
This is a very weird device and for the monety he's getting for it, there should be a lot more concrete documentation about it. Goes to show that even the developer can't get the thing to 'just work'.
Oh and the motor tuning part... it's BS. Doesn't make a bit of difference.
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Are you trying use the spindle speed PID in Mach 3? If so turn it off and also delete any file in the Mach 3 folder/macro folder called 'linearity.dat'.
The SmoothStepper just generates pules, just like the parallel port. The only difference is that for a PWM spindle you can set the acceleration. The SmoothStepper and parallel port both adjust the output in a linear fashion, i.e. 50% speed output is a 50% duty cycle square wave output. Any non-linearity is the result of your speed controller/motor. The spindle speed PID Mach 3 is a function of the parallel port driver and it can help with non-linearity problems (sometimes it works OK and sometimes it does not). It does not work with an external device so if you have it turned on or have a linearity .dat file it will screw things up.
Jeff,
You said that you had turned off the PID in the file you posted for me, I haven't checked as I do not know anything about the PID! ???
What is the PID and how do I turn it off if it is set? I know where the settings are for it (I think) but that's all, the numbers in the boxes and the check box combinations are a dark art as far as I am concerned.
What do the letters P I D stand for?
I will check for the presence of a linearity.dat file
As I have said before a few times, my speed controller works consistently and flawlessly under Parallel Port control (and still does if I try it) so there is no question of the speed controller or the motor being at fault.
Thanks,
Dave.
Well,
I didn't get any reply to my last post (above) about PID, or any further information from anyone, so here's the latest.
I checked for a linearity.dat file and deleted it. Tried all sorts of things after that but could not get to the point where the USB SS would control spindle speed any better than I had previously got it, in other words, not acceptable.
Interestingly, no matter what I did, a linearity.dat file always reappeared in the macro folder.
I hinted in an earlier post that I was thinking of buying a UC300 USB controller (http://cncdrive.com/UC300.html) and maybe buying their software too (http://cncdrive.com/UCCNC.html).
I got so disillusioned with the SS I finally recently bought both cncdrive products. I'm still getting to know everything but so far it seems to beat the Mach3/SS combo hands down.
SS was a good concept and market leader but I'm afraid the seeming lack of support (and documentation) has let it down.
Dave.
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Has anyone been able to get a touch probe to work through the ESS?? I can see the "Digitize" input go green in mach diagnostics, and I can see pin 10 activate in ESS diagnostics but the Z isn't stopping as it should. Using the same script I used before the ESS.