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Third party software and hardware support forums. => CS-Lab => Topic started by: pitchblack on December 10, 2014, 04:08:48 AM

Title: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: pitchblack on December 10, 2014, 04:08:48 AM
Ok guys getting ready to dive into my first cnc build.
The machine is a supermax ycm 30. With a old dynapath system 10. Servo are good but 1 of the drives are bad.
So to use ip/a I know I need the drives to be analog. That's were the problem starts I'm Having trouble finding drives for my motors. And will work with the ip/a.
Motor are Baldor. With encoders
100vdc.(but 1 says 150 max v) it was a replacement
Motor. The Baldor site says 100 vdc)
Current cont. 6.13
Peak current 24.7
Anyone have known of drives that will work?
Thanks
Title: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Alan XR8 on December 10, 2014, 05:58:05 AM
Check out Granite devices.


Alan
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on December 10, 2014, 05:35:45 PM
AMC will also likely have suitable drives.
Then there is also Axor

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: pitchblack on December 10, 2014, 07:40:33 PM
Thanks guys will check them out.
 question how critical is the output vdc does it have to mach the motor (100vdc)
And the same for current cont. And the peak current.
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on December 11, 2014, 03:59:37 AM
Voltage gives   RPM and current the torque, so the drives want to be a reasonable match but its not an exact thing.
For example if your motors are 6 amps continuous then you want to get a drive that is capable of at least 6amps continuous output, having one that can produce more is ok as the motor will only draw what it requires.
With the voltage then that is basically controlled by your +/-10v scaling, you would set the drive to have the max voltage you want at 10v. Obviously the drive would have to be capable of at least the voltage you require at full scale.
Most drives can take a range of input voltage and whatever you put in will be near the max the drive can output (minus losses).
Some drives can take AC mains in but the output again will be determined by the scaling of your +/-10v.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: pitchblack on December 18, 2014, 04:43:32 AM
Thanks hood.
 questions for the ip/a  should it be set up in torque mode?
Or velocity mode?
In torque mode the the feed back (encoders) go's to the ip/a
And not the drive is that right? And no tach is used
So in velocity mode encoders and the tach go's to the drives?
Little lost but trying to get my head rapped around it
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on December 18, 2014, 05:04:29 AM
Debate is open as to whether torque or speed mode is best, I think the consensus falls more to speed mode.
Regarding the encoder/tach issue, it will all depend on the drive, for example most AC servo drives take encoder input for commutation and velocity feedback and they have a pass through output for feeding the encoder signal on to the control.
If your drive only takes tach input then you will take the motor encoder to the IP-A but it will not matter whether you use speed or torque mode you will need to feed the encoder back to the IP-A as that is what it uses to close the loop. You could of course fit a separate encoder or even use glass scales for the IP-A feedback but usually you will just use the motors encoder or the drives encoder output.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: pitchblack on December 18, 2014, 05:39:50 AM
The drives I was considering are AMC 25A20.
Think it can take both encoder and the tach.
So if I get this right I only have to run the encoder back to the ip/a And not use the tach at all.
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on December 18, 2014, 05:51:50 AM
Your drive and the IP-A both need feedback.
I would have to look at the specs of the drive but it will need feedback of some sort, whether that is encoder or tach/halls  I am not sure.

Hood


Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on December 18, 2014, 05:53:51 AM
Ok just had a look, they require tach feedback, so if your motors have a tach and encoder then you would take the tach to the drive and the encoder to the IP-A.
Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: pitchblack on December 18, 2014, 06:04:44 AM
Thanks starting to make sense.
Need to order drives and didn't
Want to make a big $ mistake.
Thanks for your help again. I
Will have plenty more questions
I'll sure.
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on December 18, 2014, 06:07:48 AM
Best bet is to ask AMC, tell them what motors you have and they will confirm whether they are suitable or not.
Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 09, 2015, 10:13:09 AM
hello hood;
I want to retrofit a machine with CSMIO/P-A.

I have some questions:

how to read a specific Input using the GETOEMLED or GETUserLET??
how I can activate a digital Output??
is it the same like the dspmc ip of vital??
I know that vital already mapped the oemled to match their plugin, so how I can do this in the CSMIO??

if my VFD is +/-10V how I can set it up ??
thank you
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: TPS on March 09, 2015, 10:36:48 AM
Hi,

http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/upload/pdf/User_Manual_CSMIOIPA_1.1_EN.pdf

how to read a specific Input using the GETOEMLED or GETUserLET??

chapter 4.13.3

how I can activate a digital Output??

chapter 4.7.3

if my VFD is +/-10V how I can set it up ??

chapter 4.13.4

come on Ghantos, the CSMIO manuals are realy good.
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 09, 2015, 12:28:15 PM
Also a good resource on using the I/O

http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/index.php?m=article&show&aid=128&uinfo=Digital_and_analog_IOs__configuration__its_easy#IPA


Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: TPS on March 09, 2015, 04:03:01 PM
Hi Hood,

never meet you, but i think we are on the same road.
CSLAB is IMHO one of the most not "experiemental" controlers on this road.
(rest over PM)


Also a good resource on using the I/O

http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/index.php?m=article&show&aid=128&uinfo=Digital_and_analog_IOs__configuration__its_easy#IPA


Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 10, 2015, 06:20:56 PM
Caertainly the most thought out controller I have used, only one thing I wish for is a M76 macro to replace the G76 threading.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 13, 2015, 03:59:27 PM
Hi friends,
Regarding the CSMIO-A , what is the function and the usage of the index homing!
What about the pin out mapping for this?

I noted at the user manual that when we use the index homing the pin become "dead" not active?
Could you please explain?

Sorry but this is my first retrofitting project and I have no good experience   

Regards,
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 13, 2015, 06:33:31 PM
Index homing is a way of very accurately homing. It uses a switch and also the Index pulse of the encoder, it is the way all the industrial machines do homing.
What happens is the axis moves towards your home switch, it triggers the switch and then reverses until the switch is again closed, it then seeks out the Index pulse of the encoder and when that is seen it sets that as home position.

Because it is just using the switch as a trigger to start looking for the Index pulse then it means the switches accuracy does not matter.

To set it up you need to have separate home switch for each axis and you just tell the plugin which input it is connected to and enable the Index Homing in the plugin.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 14, 2015, 03:14:59 AM
Thank you hood
But what do you mean by "tell the plug in"
Do you mean in mach3 ports and pins?

I see in the manual that when we activate the index homing the pin become "dead" not active.
Please let me know
Regards
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: TPS on March 14, 2015, 03:52:38 AM
Hi Ghantos,

no it is not done in Mach3 itselv.
you have to go to config -> configure plugins -> then select the CSLAB pluging -> config.
in the window wicht is showing up you can configure the index input for every axis.

Thomas
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 14, 2015, 04:44:42 AM
Thanks a lot !
I know that, but my question where to map the input for the homing ?
Is it in mach3?

From your experience , which controller better
Dspmc of vital or the csmio-a from CS-lab??

Please let me know
Basim
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: TPS on March 14, 2015, 07:31:21 AM
Hi,

the home limit switch input is mapped in mach3 ports&pins.

Sorry i do not have any experience with Dspmc ,
but my CSMIO is working very well.

Thomas
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 14, 2015, 01:28:08 PM
Sorry I misspoke, I was thinking of the Fault signal inputs, you have to tell the plugin which pin they are connected to.
As Thomas has said the home switches need set in Ports and Pins and you then enable Index Homing in the plugin and enter the count of each axes encoder there as well.

Like Thomas I have never used the DSPMC so can not say how it compares to the CSMIO/IP-A but I can say the IP-A is an excellent controller and definitely the best I have used.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 14, 2015, 01:46:27 PM
Thanks Hood and Thomas ,
Really I ask a lot because up to now I did not get the controller to start the project.

And I want yo get as much as I can information yo ease the getting started with hje job.

Q:
What is the "step per" in mach and the encoder counts in the plugin !

Should both be the same?

Regards,
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 14, 2015, 03:20:17 PM
No they will not be the same.
The encoder counts is what the encoder outputs in one revolution, for example if it is a 2500 line encoder then that would be 10,000 pulses per rev, if its a 2000 line encoder then it would be 8000 pulses per rev.

The steps per unit in Mach will be determined by the encoder pulses per rev, what gearing you have between motor and screw and what the pitch of the screw is.
For example if you have a 5mm pitch screw and the gearing is 2:1 between motor and screw and the encoder is 2500 line (10000 ppr) then the steps per unit would be
10000 x 2 /5 = 4000steps per mm


Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 14, 2015, 04:03:39 PM
Dear hood and all friends,
Thank you a lot at this time.
I hope to get the controller soon and start to analyse the job.
Regards,
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 25, 2015, 05:10:59 PM
Dear hood ,
My machine has a servo DC motors with tachometer.
 
Now, I Ask if the csmio-A supports this kind of servos

And if the setting the PID of this servo is different than the ac servo.

Today I got the kit and I want to start with the axes.
Regards,
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: TPS on March 25, 2015, 05:34:45 PM
Hi Ghantos,

if your servo controllers do not support a Encoder Simulation, you have to
install seperate Encoders/glas linear guides or thomething like this.

post some more Information about yor drives.

Thomas
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 26, 2015, 02:34:12 AM
dear Hood;
 my machine that i need to retrofit has Bosch CC100 controller.
it has  DC servo Dirves Bosch of SM- 10/20
servo motors has Encoder that connected to the CNC controller Not to the Servo Drive.

with DSPMC of vital no problem, i think they have the same property so i also think that it should not be a problem.

please let me know

Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 26, 2015, 06:10:59 AM
If the encoders are 5v square wave differential then it will not be a problem. If they are single ended then it would be best to get a line driver to make them differential.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 26, 2015, 06:13:54 AM
Yes hood it's bidirectional 5v square wave.
Regards ,
Basim
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 26, 2015, 06:17:26 AM
It should work fine then as it will basically be the same as the original control, motors Tachs to drives for speed feedback and encoders to control (IP-A in this case) for position feedback. :)


Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 26, 2015, 06:28:33 AM
Hood,
is it mean that the settinng the PID could be easier than AC servos without Tachometer??

i want to start my job with the axes!!

please advice,
ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 26, 2015, 06:40:06 AM
It should just be the same, the AC servos normally use the encoder for speed feedback although some use resolvers but essentially the tuning of a DC will be the same as an AC as far as the IP-A is concerned.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 26, 2015, 06:55:05 AM
Thanks Alot Hood,

Now, i want to start with the axes motions and later to pin out the Inputs And Outputs.....

from your experience, whitch importand switches i need to pin out in Mach3 for begining??
is the Estop is enught at this level.

the problem that in the manual we have good information, but the sequnce and the order of telling the information is not good.
sometimes explaining the I/O then GO to Encoder after that return back to I/O.
its really confusing me.

i will install the mach3 at first then installing the plugin and then wiring then tunning.
what do you thing?
 Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 26, 2015, 09:13:46 AM
Really wiring  will be dependant on your machine but definitely an E-Stop is a must and preferably it should work on the hardware side of things as well, ie drop out contactors or similar so that the drives are powered down. You want to keep the encoders power connected though as it will mean the IP-A and Mach will still know where the axes are even after an E-Stop.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 26, 2015, 02:21:19 PM
Hello hood,
I have rade that the firmware version of the csmio/A and the plugin from mach 3 must be the same !!
My newest firmware of the controller is 2.063 and the last version of the plug in on mach3 website is 1.65.

No new versions their !!!
How we can match between !!
Regards
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 26, 2015, 02:31:56 PM
The plugin comes from CS-Lab and not Mach.
When you download the installer from CS-Lab it updates the firmware and at the same time installs the correct plugin. So if you have the latest firmware you should also already have the correct plugin.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: TPS on March 26, 2015, 02:34:19 PM
if you install this:

http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/upload/firmware/setup_CSMIO-IP-A-2.603.zip

you get all you Need.

Thomas
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 28, 2015, 04:52:13 AM
Hello hood,
I installed the wirefirm 2.603 and i could see some changes in my controller.
I.e emergency stop moving axes .....I can see that the LEDs are change status.

But in the manual , I can see that in the configuration window we have a let that says "connection ok" and Temp, power 24v

But in my case I can't see this!!!
Could be another version??

Please let me know!!
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on March 29, 2015, 01:00:26 AM
Hello Hood,
sorry for my last post, i can see the connection status , TEMP, Voltage  its in the "Pluin Control".

But now, i have another question:
really i dont know what is the type of my VFD for the spindle.(+/-10Vdc or 0-10Vdc)

what is the difference between??
is the +/-10Vdc is respnsible for the CW and CCW rotation with one digital outpout configration.??
what my trials  indicate that i have No contactor ro reverse the rotaion.

Sorry, but i have  no Electrical Docs for the machine and i want to retrofit by "Trials and Errors".

regards;
Ghantos,
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on March 31, 2015, 06:02:25 AM
It will all depend on the VFD, some Industrial ones can accept +/- 10v commands, the more normal command on the lower end VFD's is 0-10v.

If it can accept +/- 10v then it will not need Fwd/Rev relays or signals as the polarity of the command will determine the direction.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on April 02, 2015, 12:25:15 AM
thank you Hood!!
today, i started to do setup and tunning the axes X,Y,Z.

in the cs-lab manual we have some instruction of how to tunning the PID. But, the explaination is described generally.

it has no enught techniqe of how to do that. No explaniation for how to "read and analyse" the trajictory Graph of the tunning..

so i need to understand how much i need to "play" untel i get the best result.??,

also, how much i can trust the automatic tunning?? and have you use it before??..

best regards;
Ghantos


Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on April 07, 2015, 01:55:59 PM
I used the Auto Tuning to get close then just altered  settings a bit at a time until I got the best response I could.
Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on April 17, 2015, 12:15:10 PM
Hello Hood,
I am trying to tune the Y axis .
I have played a lot with the parameters of the PID to get 30000mm/min max speed.
All the time I get ePID error when I run the machine with max speed.

In the end I adjusted the max following error to 35000 to avoid this error.
Now I have a problem that when I run the machine with automatic mode like this program:

G90 G0 Y-500
G90 G0 Z-100
It seems that the Z axis go down little bit before the Y reach the final position.
What could be the problem??
Is it PID bad tuning?
Is it because the max following error.

Please let md know.
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on April 17, 2015, 05:27:28 PM
It does sound like a tuning issue and is likely your problem.
30M/min is rapid, what kind of machine is it?
35,000 may be quite a large following error, it will depend on your resolution, what are the steps per unit set to for the Y axis?

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on April 18, 2015, 12:39:22 AM
Dear Hood,
I will check once again the machine motors spec. And let you know.

By the way , I thing my servo motors max rpm is 3000
Rev/min. And so with a simple calculation with the transmition ratio and ball screw the max rapid speed I can reach is 20000mm/min. But my internal felling us thang the machine is running faster.

Sorry, but I have no docs for this machine and this is the problem.
Please let me know your idea,
Regards,
Ghantos
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on April 20, 2015, 04:11:04 PM
You need to know the encoder count and the gearing to then set the correct steps per unit.

Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on April 21, 2015, 01:02:44 AM
Dear Hood,
my checking results are that the Servo Motor is really 3000rpm Max and has no mechnical gearing. it has only trasmistion poly 2:1 to reduce the RPM. not to increase the RPM.
my encoder phisical resolution is 500PPR.
the ball screw is 10mm petch.

according to the above data what i need to set in the CSMIO-A plugin and in the "STEP Per" in mach3.
please note that the my encoder is 500pulse per minute; not lines.

sholuld i multiply 500X4 at the pulg in Encoder setting or not????

and so what is the maximum rapid speed i can reach with the above data.
thank you in advanced.
basim
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Hood on April 22, 2015, 08:47:21 AM
At 3000rpm and a 10mm pitch and 2:1 reduction then you would get a max of 15,000mm/min.
That is of course if the motor can spin at 3,000, if it is a DC servo then it may not reach that rpm, it will depend on whether your power supply to the drives is full motor voltage , usually it is a bit less.

I would personally set the Velocity in Mach at 10,000mm/min and see how it goes.


Not sure what you mean by pulse per minute for the encoder, presume you mean pulses per rev?
I will also assume that it is actually the line count as 500 was a common line count of an encoder.

So for Steps per unit  it would be
500 x 4 for encoder x 2 for reduction then divide by 10 for pitch = 400 steps per mm.


Hood
Title: Re: Csmio/IP-A drives
Post by: Ghantos on June 08, 2015, 10:48:27 AM
Hello Hood;
i tried to activate the "Home index" in the CSMIO-A but every time i got an error like"index home not found....."(i dont  remember exactly the the syntax". when i send the machine for homing.

what could be the problem???
is setting thr PPR for the encoder from all the edges  (i.e. 500X4) important for the "home index" only??.

or i should to set it correctlly anyway even if i dont activate the "home index"???

please let me know!!.
regards;
Ghantos