Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: GTM-S on February 23, 2014, 07:44:13 AM
-
Hello All
I have been reading on this forum quite alot, and got alot of inspiration.
I live in Sweden.
I like challanges and building things, everything from cars, boats to houses, cnc technics etc. I upposed I could say I am a self learned engineer:-)
I have a CNC Mill a Syil X6 and have had the mill since 2008 and back then they did not have PDB or ATC, so during the years since I have built a PDB with Air/Hydraulic release, and 20mm TTS type tooling in a MT3 Spindle.
I have also made a Automatic Tool Length measure Switch and macro.
I am just are in the finishing stadges of my 10 tool carousel ATC, I have basically all the mechanics finished and have completed the VB macro with safety sensors and it works, I am on my way to make a screenset for the ATC in Mach3.
But I have noticed that the MT3 taper has the tendency to get stuck from time to time, So I have got a Tormach R8 spindle insted with 3/4" straight shank tooling, and are on my way to install it and then I tought of changing the spindle motor and drive to get more torque and spindle speed, for now I have 3500 rpm and would like to come up to 6000 rpm and was thinking a Servo as spindle motor 2,2 Kw 3Phase.
I have found a Taiwan company www.Adlee.com that had a BLDC Motor with 2.2 Kw 6000Rpm, and as I understand it can be controlled from mach3, but they no longer have that available and I have been looking at their Match servo motor and drive, but it is not the same types of controll it is +- 0-10V and no Step/Dir, it has RS485 interface, but I have no experience with that.
So my question is: Does anyone have any recomendation of a company that sells something that could work or what I should be looking for? Or is the match servo a good way to?
On Ebay there are alot of servos and drives, but I cant seem to find anyone that has 6000 rpm, Step/Dir and 2,2 Kw (1.5Kw could be enough)
What I want to achive is: To be able to do Tapping with a tension/compression tapping head and maybe if it is achivable RigidTapping, Get Rpms up to 6000, and not have the motor reducing rpm when plunging into the material.
My existing configuration is this
Stepper motors for X Y Z A B(Carousel)
BLDC motor 1.5 Kw from Syil Driver is 1Phase
My goal is:
Ethernet Smoot stepper, to get more inputs/outputs for sensors and ATC
Servo motor as Spindle Motor, Driver needs to be 380V or 230V, 3Phase to spred the amps, I have 3x 16Amps available.
R8 spindle with Tormach TTS tooling
ATC 10 Tools
Thanks in advance.
Thomas
-
If wanting true rigid tapping then really you want to look at one of the controllers that support it, the CSMIO/IP-S and IP-A do but the IP-S is the one you would want if your axes use Step/Dir. The K-fLOP may also support it as possibly the DSPMC.
If you have a sTep/Dir servo fro the spindle you can use SwapAxis() command with the ESS or USB SS and achieve rigid tapping as well but it is more convoluted than with the CSMIO.
If you are stuck with an analogue drive you can still likely use it, you may find you can use it in 0-10v and a Dir signal and in that case you would just need a means of getting 0-10v, with the ESS or USB SS that would mean an additional spindle controller, with the CSMIO (and possibly the others) that is built in.
Even if you only have +/-10v option in the drive you can still use that if you use some relays to invert the 0-10v on reversal of direction, this would also require that you can have a signal to tell your drive to stop the spindle as if not it may creep when supposed to be off.
With that method and the CSMIO rigid tapping would still be possible but with the ESS/USBSS then it would not be possible and you would need a floating holder.
Hood
-
Thanks for your reply Hood
That driver looks very good, even if I have the ESS it is mayby better to change to the CSMIO/IP-S,and yes my XYZ is step/Direction. (I can use the ESS for the plasma table I am planning)
I don not have any servo or servo drive yet, that is basically the question, if I go with your suggestion, any inputs on what servo and drive to use?
Is the one I found a good sulution or should I look elsevere.
The problem seems to to find a servo that has 6000 rpm.
But as I understand it if I go with the CSMIO I am not limited to set/dir or pwm, but can also use +-0-10V, since the CSMIO unit converts to that? have I understod it right?
Thanks for any ideas
Thomas
-
If using the CSMIO/IP-S then preferrably a Step/Dir capable servo would be the one you want. If it was +/- 10v then you could still use. The IP-S can put out a 0-10v analogue voltage which you could feed through two double pole relays and you could switch the relays via the Realy Outputs in Mach. What that would do is reverse the polarity of the voltage and thus you would have 0-10v for M3 and -10 to 0v for M4.
I did that on my wee lathe when I fist fitted it out with the IP-S because at that time they did not have Step/Dir for a spindle, they have since added that so I now use that.
If wanting rigid tapping you will also require the Enc Module.
Hood
-
Hood
I need to try to understand this, why is the reason I need these two units, and how is the treading handled from mach3 and my cam program? (Bobcad V24)
Is it that the ENC module syncs the rpm and Z movement with the encoder on the motor?
Any sugestions on a suitable servo?
Is the one I have found at adlee a good canidate? http://www.adlee.com/matchservo_motor_with_driver.htm
Or should I insted look for a "real" servo?
-
The CSMIO sync's the Z axis to the rpm of the spindle whilst doing tapping and thus requires encoder feedback from the spindle to do that.
The Code for doing rigid tapping is normally G84 but as Mach itself only supports a pseaudo rigid tapping routine then the CSMIO does it external to Mach and you call it with a M84. It should be easy enough to edit the post processor for BobCAD to issue a M84 instead of a G84.
The motors you linked to should work well enough as they are servos. Just had a quick look but it seems 3000rpm is the max though. You could possibly get a larger servo and gear it via belt/pulley to give you the RPM, that is what I will be doing on my Chiron, currently the motor I have is only 3800rpm but I am gearing it 1:2.25 and thus will get 8550rpm.
Hood
-
Hi Hood
Thanks so much for your explanation.
Adlee also has that motor in a 6000 rpm version so that is fine, the only issue was that it is not awailable in step/dir mode nor PWM, but +10-+10 CW, and -10--10V CCW, but with the driver you suggested then it will work out, and still have the XYZ and B as step/dir
Is there also possibilities to have multiple inputs and outputs for sensors, limitswitches, toollength sensor, Flood pump, air cylinder valves etc or do I need to have somthing extra for that (I have a relaycard for the outputs).
Thomas
-
The CSMIO has lots of I/O, it has 32 Inputs and 16 outputs which are 24v as is normal practice with more Industrial rated devices as that helps greatly with noise immunity, so as long as all your sensors can handle 24v you should be able to connect them up directly. You also have 6 axis worth of differential Step/Dir signals (again noise immune) You also have 4 Analogue inputs for things such as Feed Override and spindle override pots and there are 2 analogue outputs one of which you would use for Spindle Control.
Another nice thing about the CSMIO is, assuming you are using servos, is you can home to the Index pulse of the servos encoder. With the CAMIO/IP-A nothing extra is required as the encoders already feed back to the CSMIO (and Mach) but with the CSMIO/IP-S there is no encoder feedback so you may need to make up a small circuit to allow you to do Index homing, it will depend on your servo drives as to whether that is required or not.
Hood
-
Hi
Adlle canot supply any 3 Phase drivers, so I have to scrap that route.
It turns out that a neighbour companay has this motor awailable REXROTH MKD071B-061-KG0-KN, and it revs 6000 rpm, 8 Nm, dont say anything about how many Kw it is but Do you think it will work.
What kind of driver is needed, and what is a resonable price I should offer the selle for the motor?
Thomas
-
This is apparently the driver I need DKC02.3-040-7-FW
-
Unless you can get a compatible drive for a reasonable price then really the motor is not much use. I think all the MKD motors have resolver feedback but often they have a piggyback encoder for feeding the control. If it had been encoder with commutation you could possibly have used one of the Allen Bradly DSD drives and set up a custom motor profile but if it is indeed a resolver then afraid the DSD drives do not accept them.
You could use an encoder without commutation however but you would have to set it up as Self Sensing, that would mean each time you powered up the drive it would rotate 1/4 turn or so to work out the commutation required, for a spindle that might not be too much of an issue.
Hood
-
Hi Hood
I have read in the documents that the KG0 in the articel no. means K=Resolver feedback with integrated multiturn absolute encoder, G=straight axel without keyway, 0= No Brake.
Thomas
-
Do you know the output of the encoder? Does it have Hall signals?
Hood
-
Hi
I dont know if there is a hall sensor and what the difference is from a encoder
Attached is the documents on the motor
-
It looks like it is an intelligent encoder similar to the Sick Stegmann Hiperface type but it doesnt really say. If it is then it should work with the DSD drives but it would be a risk.
Hood
-
I have talked to Rexroth about what drive to use and they have sent me a manual for that drive, witch can be found on ebay.
I got the motor really cheap and it would be nice to use it
But not sure how to hook it up to Mach3.
Attached is the indramat manual.
Thanks
Thomas
-
I want to see video of it up and running with the 10 tool changer!
-
You would need to use a double pole relay and you would switch the relays from the M4 signal from the CSMIO for going CCW.
So 0-10v connects to the relay as in pic below and the outputs of the relay connect to the drives analogue input signals. When commanding M3 the positive will flow out the top wire and 0v the bottom. If you command M4 then the relay will shift over and the polarity will be reversed.
You will also require a signal so that when M3/4 are not called (ie M5 or spindle stopped) the spindle is not allowed to move, you may be able to have the limit inputs of the drive connected to that signal, so if you had another relay you could use that to control things. ie you have the M3 and M4 outputs controlling that relay and have the NC contacts of the relay to the digital inputs for the limits on the drive. So what happens is when no M3/M4 command is present the limit inputs on the drive get a signal and thus the drive will not move the spindle.
When you command M3 the relay will get switches and that will remove the limit inputs to the drive and allow it to follow the 0-10v signal.
When you command M4 then the double pole relay will get switched and the polarity will reverse.
Hope you follow as it is quite hard to put down in words what is essentially very simple.
Hood
-
Okay I think I follow, and this is for a drive that not acceps step/dir, and to reverse the ploarity of the 0-10 to 0-(-10)V, I will try alittle more to find a step/dir drive before I go this route.
I have opened the feedback and it is a absolute encoder with a battey attached to it, and a Resolver with this label on it "LTN Servotechnik GmBH, RE-15-4-D01, S/N 11654343, se attached pictures.
I found a company in the US that might have a driver I am looking form but they have not yet answered, they are Advanced Motion Controllers, www.a-m-c.com.
The sign on the motor say 70V/1000 Rpm, so I guess I need 400V to get to 6000 Rpm
I have not yet got a film of the ATC, and I am redoing some parts to make it operate smoother, and installing the new spindle and motor, when I have it working I will post a film.
Thomas
-
Hello
I have been doing some work on the mill.
Installed the tormach spindle with HTD belt and pulleys.
Ordered a new enclosure (it will arrive next week)
Untill then I have put all the electronics on the wall for easy access
Then I finally got a Rexroth Ecodrive that works with Step/dir, from a company in germany that works with used servos and drives.
they set it upp for me to with a max speed of 6400 rpms, steps per turn is 1200.
Installed everything temporarily to the ESS with BOB (without optocuplers), the servo drive works and I can start/stop Rev the spindle with M3/M5/M4, the spindle speed settings work from 0-5500 rpm, but when I try to go to 5600 the servo driver shuts off with the error code F228: Excessiv deviation.
I have the tried to change a lot of the parameters in the drive with the Drivetop software from indramat, according to the german companys instructions, nothing helps, still the same problem.
I also have tried with different resolution from 300 -3000, still the same issue.
I have tried with quadrature signat insted of ste/dir, no difference.
The cable to the servo motor is the indramat original with shielding.
The cable from the BoB to the connector that has step/dir signals are shielded
I am not sure if this is a problem with the servo drive or the ESS or something in Mach3.
I think I remember something I read somewhere about some issues with the ESS step/dir spindle control, dont know if that is still an issue?
Any suggestions?