Machsupport Forum
Third party software and hardware support forums. => CS-Lab => Topic started by: Dan13 on December 27, 2013, 01:29:18 AM
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Hi,
Had a CSMIO/IP-A module lying around for quite some time, waiting for a retrofit of my mill. Eventually got to retrofit a router for a client and decided to use the module. However, had to purchase a CSMIO/IP-S module as the Panasonic drives on the machine only could take Step/Dir. Anyway, found myself facing some issues which aren't covered in the manuals and the CS-Labs staff seems to be very busy and haven't got a reponse from them since two weeks ago.
First, regarding the MPG module:
1. How do I access inputs of MPG module from Mach3? Which port and which pins? I am using two digital inputs from the MPG module for Start and FeedHold buttons. How do I define it in Maach3? Also my Estop button on the MPG module cuts 24VDC to one of the inputs (not Estop1 Estop2 inputs as I don’t understand them) – how do I configure it in Mach3?
2. I have 3 potentiometers on the Pendant (FRO, SRO and Rapid override). Two of them go through the MPG module and configured in CSMIO software. One of them goes to the CSMIO/IP-S directly. The potentiomters that connect to the MPG mdule have very slow and poor response in Mach3. I have to rotate them very slowly in order for the MAch3 DRO to update correctly. If I rotate a little bit faster then Mach3 DRO doesn’t update well – for instance winding it rapidly from zero to the opposite extreme, it would end up at 260% or so and not 300% . Also it seems that only half of the potentiometer’s travel is utilized – it is only half way to the max and the DRO already shows 300%. When I set the FRO in the CSMIO software to the 3rd potentiometer which is connected directly to the CSMIO/IP-S then it is more responsive and works better. However, still would stop at 290% if winding the pot quickly.
And regarding wiring the CSMIO/IP outputs (got my head around wiring the inputs). Their terminology of the pins is doesn't much the industrial for PLCs and such so a bit confusing! Also documentation lacks fundamental drawings of the internal electronics of the inputs and outputs (optos or transistors or open collector, etc.) like most manufacturers do and which helps understanding the I/O and wire them correctly. There is 24V and 0V on the digital outputs connector for every few outputs - how do you wire them?
Thanks,
Dan
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Dan,
bit rushed at the moment so will answer a few of your questions and if I make it to the workshop today I will have a look regarding the FRO to see if I get the same issue regarding the fast wind.
I found that the MPG module was slightly less responsive than direct connection to the main module for FRO etc however I also found that a log pot gave much better response. BTW what resistance pot are you using? Also if I recall the Analogue on the MPG module is 5v rather than the 10v of the main unit, just in case you are using 10v. I think the manual says analogue 0-10v but unless its been changed that is wrong. You take the feed for your pot from the 5v output.
Regarding the outputs, if I recall they are sourcing only, so you have your power and 0v to provide power for it and the actual output will output the voltage. I dont think you can use them as sinking outputs, I am sure I had to make up wee relays for the Fara drive I have on the wee lathe as its inputs were sourcing.
E-stop, the connections on the main power plug (E-Stop1 &2) I think are meant for connecting an E-Stop string into the MPG module, for example you may have an E-Stop fitted to your panel, if you wished you could connect that into the string to halt the Mach if the E-Stop on the MPG is pushed.To do that the 24v is already going into your E-Stop switch and you then feed the other side of your NC into EStop 1, you then take a wire from EStop2 and put that to 0V (or feed it back in to the external E-stop string to continue it.
So what EStop 1 and 2 are for is to halt the rest of the E-Stop string, I think basically they are acting like a relay, if you halt the MPG modules E-Stop then these contacts will open and thus your main E-Stop string will be open., hope I have not confused the situation as I know what I mean but may not be putting it down in words very well
Regarding the actual E-Stop on your hand held pendant, I think you would use pins 13 and 25 and have a NC contact on the E-Stop button.
Hood
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Dan,
Just tried my FRO and SRO that are connected via the MPG module and they work fine, doesnt matter if I wind fast or slow they respond fast in Machs DROs and they get up to 299 and 248 respectively, no matter if fast or slow.
Also watching the analogue bar in the plugin, it is not until they get to then end that the bar shows full scale. I suspect you are feeding the pots 10v and that is why you get the full bar at mid position, may also account for the unusual response you are getting.
Regarding the I/O and the address, if wanting to use Ports and Pins then it would be the address of the module you would use, you will see that if you look in the plugin (from Plugin Control menu) and then look at the expansion modules page.
If using Brains or Macropump then it would be the ModBus address you would use.
Hood
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Hi Hood,
Thanks for the reply. I AM using 10v for the analogue indeed. The manual clearly says that they are 10V. I'll try to use the 5V and see if it helps. The resistors I am using are 1k, but also tried 5k and 10k.
Do you think there is a reason why they did the outputs so stupidly? If they are only sourcing then why do you have to supply both 24V and 0V...?
You got me a bit confused with the Estop - do you mean that pins 13 and 25 on the DB25 connector are on the control side of a relay which switches Estop1 and Estop2 on the power jack.? So providing continuity between pins 13 and 25 closes the relay and connects Estop1 to Estop2.
Dan
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Dan, yes the manual does mention 0-10v analogue but if you look at the bar in the expansion module diagnostics it says 0-5v, that is how I discovered it as I was previously using a 24v supply and putting a resistor in series to limit to 10v. Now I have it connected to the 5v out.
The main modules however use 0-10v, its just the MPG that is 0-5v
Regarding the way they connect the outputs, I have no idea, you would have to look up the datasheet for the chip they are using. I suspect it may be so you can supply voltages other than 24v for each bank of 4 outs but thats just a guess as I have not looked up the data sheet. I did however look through my old emails and here is what they said.
"CSMIO/IP devices use integrated output chips (VNQ860) and they have sourcing outputs only, so if sinking outputs are needed you must do it on the relay."
Also in that same email I asked about the E-Stops and here is what they said.
"ESTOP on DB25 are for NC push button connection from MPG pendant. ESTOP pins near power connector are for connection with main ESTOP circuit, so ESTOP button on the pendant works independently of CAN logic. Please look on sample diagram on page 11 of MPG module user manual."
Hood
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Just to clarify regards the E-Stop.
What they have done is have pins 13 and 25 for connecting your hand held pendants E-Stop button to and they control the E-Stop 1 and 2 connections on the main plug. That means that as you have your machines main E-Stop string connected through these connections, when you press E-Stop on the pendant it actually just opens the contacts on the main plug and thus interupts your machines main E-Stop string.
It may also send a signal via CANBUS, not sure as I dont actually have any of my E-Stops connected to the MPG module, all I have (if I recall correctly) is pin 25 and 13 shorted together.
Hood
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Thanks, Hood! Will redo the analogue on Sunday when I get to the workshop.
Checked the datasheet for the above chip and it seems to be sourcing only, indeed. And as you guessed, it can take anything from 5.5V to 36V and have it on the outputs. Not the best solution for an industrial controller, though I can see some advantage in being able to output different voltage levels. Also, in a standard application I think you would most likely have common GND, not needing separate GND for every bunch of 4 outputs.
Thanks again. Think I can finish the wiring now.
Dan
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Hi Hood,
Supplying 5V to the pots fixed things indeed. Now facing another issue though. When opening the CSMIO plugin config window I am getting some invalid argument message, see a screenshot attached (msg1). Then if trying to save the settings I am getting an error message, see screenshot attached (msg2). Any idea what it might be? Didn't have this happen when I was playing with the CSMIO/IP-A.
Dan
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Have never seen that Dan, going by the message however it would seem to be related to Index Homing.
Maybe it thinks you have enabled the index homing and is looking for the encoder PPR to be entered. Try enabling that and putting a value in then save then go back and disable and see.
May also be you have set up a spindle axis but have not entered a value for the encoder?
Hood
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OK, have it partly worked out. You are right - it wants me to enter some value in the encoder index homing. After doing it, it continues to pop all sorts of other messages, like wrong slave parameters, wrong spindle parameters, and so on. Entering values for all these, it eventually allows me to do a save, but then after I exit and reload the config, all the settings are erased and back to default. Just can't wok this way. So you're saying you never had seen this... and CS Labs are not answering... Will may be try to call them tomorrow.
Dan
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Dan, no I have never seen anything like that, not even had an error message box ever pop up.
What version of plugin are you using? What version of Mach.
Not sure if I could look and see if I can find the issue if you attached your xml but could give it a go.
Hood
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Hood,
Mach version .062, plugin version 2.1 (latest on the website), but also tried the one that came on the CD with the CSMIO which was version 2.05, I think. Thanks for the offer, will get the XML tomorrow. You have the IP-S on the Connect?
Dan
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Dan, yes its an IP-S on the connect.
Hood
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Hi Hood,
Did a restore to Windows to a point before installing the IP-A software as I had a feeling there were some conflicts, and now those errors are gone :)
However, now have another issue - when trying to jog I am getting this error message. Ever seen this?
Dan
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Have seen that error but only on the IP-A as it is a PID error, ie a following error. You are using the IP-S are you not?
Only thing I can think of is maybe the spindle as it has an encoder, assuming you have the Enc module?
There is a possibility it may have something to do with a slave axis if you have one but cant really see why as there is no encoder feedback with the IP-S.
Hood
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Yes, using the IP-S. So seems I still have something left over from the IP-A installation, though when I did windows restore it deleted everything including Mach3, so not sure where do I delete this.
Dan
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I have had both plugins installed on a computer and it has not caused a problem so not sure how it could be that. Only place it would be would be in the plugin folder and possibly some remnants in the xml. It sounds however as if you have made a new xml so cant see how that could be the case.
Have you got the dotnet installed? Thinking it wont be that either as I dont think you would even get as far as you have if it wasnt.
Hood
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Yes, have fresh Mach3 and XML with a new, different name profile. Will check regarding the .Net.
Dan
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Deleted the XML and created a new profile again. Now this issue is gone. Have no idea how it was getting access to the old XML after I did windows restore.
Now got to the MPG. The way it is, is strange, because it appears that they made all the settings for me and I can't change it. I have a pendant with a momentary enable switch for the resolution select and the axis select (like they show in their example in the manual), but funnily this switch also enables/disables the MPG wheel, although physically they are not linked (like can be seen in their example). Is it the normal way it works? Also pressing this switch activates the two digital outputs on the MPG module as seen on the diagnostics LEDs. Have no idea why it happens.
Dan
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I am wondering if you had the spindle encoder setting inverted or not inverted if it was needed. I tried tested that out this afternoon to see what message I got and sure enough with the encoder the wrong way I got the EPID message.
The MPG unit is all mapped with the exception of 1 Input and 2 Outputs, you can set them to what you want.
If you have an enable then that controls the MPG functions, in other words if you do not have the Enable pressed then the CSMIO turns over to Mach for keyboard jogging. The two inputs you are likely seeing will be the Axis selected and the multiplier selected but thats just a guess as I have never looked.
I do not have an enable button as I am not using a hand held pendant and instead have my MPG module connected to the switches and MPG on my control panel. Because of that I have had to do things slightly differently so that I can jog via keyboard as the only way to be able to do that is disable both the axis and multiplier selection.
Hood
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That was two outputs I was seeing ;)
Are you using the keyboard for jogging?
Dan
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The only time I have ever used the keyboard for jogging was when I was testing out a runaway condition others were seeing with different external controllers. Oh I have also used it once or twice during setup of my soft limits as when on a limit you can only jog off via keyboard, MPG will not work.
Hood
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Any idea how to access the analogue input on the IP-S from a brain? Need to do a rapid override and have no clue how to do it...
Dan
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Sorry Dan, dont know that one.
I have never used other than the pre-set ones and just have my rapid and feed locked.
I know the base units use 90 and 91 for the modbus address (90 for first 16 ins or outs and 91 for the next 16)
Expansion modules use 100 - 115 for the address
Enc module writes to User DROs 1501, 1502, 1503
Hood
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OK, thanks Hood. Will see if I can get an answer from them. You think Mach3 can see the IP-S as a Modbus device?
Dan
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Dan, the IP-M -S- -A have a built in modbus, you dont need to configire anything at all, you just need to choose the correct address and bit. There are details of the calls in the extra I/O modules manual.
I use them in the macropump for things like external RefAll button etc, can also get the access via Brains by using modbus address and bit.
Hood
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Ah.... didn't know that... thanks!
Dan
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Communication is VERY poor with them. Asked them about accessing the I/O from within a brain, but instead got a VB example. Probably could do the rapid override in VB, but think it would be much slower than a brain.
Hood, talking about speed, I was very disappointed with the rather slow response of the feedhold with the IP-S. Also FRO and SRO are pretty slow to respond. Just wanted to confirm it's the same for you. With the SS, for instance, with the controller frequency set to 4Khz, the feedhold and FRO respond almost instantaneously.
Dan
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I would say it is slow to respond on the Chiron, not so slow on the lathe. Two differences, the lathe is using the main modules analogue inputs and the Chiron is using the MPG unit. The Lathe is a lot slower than the Chirons 20m/min so that also makes a difference.
The log pot made a difference on the Chiron, didnt speed the response but allowed the FRO to be more usable as the lower end of the range is over a bigger sweep of the pot.
Regarding the VB, what did they tell you it was for the analogue in?
Hood
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Ah... so it's the MPG module slowing down the response. The Feedhold button is also attached to it so probably that one too.
This is the VB example they sent:
'10V = 4095 / 0V = 0
'IN 0
a = GetInput(80)
SetOEMDro(800, a) 'Dro X
'IN 1
b = GetInput(81)
SetOEMDro(801, b) 'Dro Y
'IN 2
c = GetInput(82)
SetOEMDro(802, c) 'Dro Z
'IN 3
d = GetInput(83)
SetOEMDro(803, d) 'Dro 4
Dan
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Oh... and also got an example VB for an analogue out:
'OUT 0
a = 4095
SetModOutput(80, a) '10V Max DAC
a = 0
SetModOutput(80, a) '0V Min DAC
'OUT 1
b = 4095
SetModOutput(81, b) '10V Max DAC
b = 0
SetModOutput(81, b) '0V Min DAC
Dan
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I wonder if the input would be the same for the Brain over modbus, just need to know the address. Will have a look tomorrow if I remember and see.
However a macropump will work fine, certainly did when I was doing my height checker via the encoder input of the Enc unit, I could slide the scale as fast as I wanted and it would look like any other DRO moving in Mach.
Hood
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OK. Will try a macropump. Besides I am much more fond of VB than Brains anyway ;)
Dan
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Oh sorry also missed the feedhold question, cant really say how slow it is as its not something I use very often, I mainly just use the FRO pot.
Hood