Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: escowizard on February 21, 2007, 08:10:50 PM
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Weird problem.
I have 4 axis BP all Geckos and Breakout board. Mach 2.
Now I mainly cut screw machine cams on my machine using the rotary table. I have cut several hundred of em so I know all works great normally.
Now last night, I was milling away on my last cam of the set and when she got up to the larger radius it started "taking off". By that I mean its like someone put in a F200 or almost G0. There went that carbide end mill.
Since then, I have not been able to figure out why. The arc rises all work perfect and the dwell cuts (rotary A cuts without an X rise or fall) run smoothly.
Its only when the A axis movement is bigger like 15° rotation and the X axis movement is like .0025".
Now these movements are very common in my line of work. Just generation on the screw machine parts. I have cut hundreds of these.
Prog below..........
(S1038 )
( TOOL 5 Cam )
(STAR SJ-8R)
G90
G1 Z0 F100
G1 A20. F200
G1 A0 X 1.112 F80
G1 Z-2.5 F100
G1 Z-2.650 F5
M01
Z-2.800 F3
Z -2.960 F2
Z -3.020 F1
G91
G1 F40
N 99 A 25 X 1.0685
N 518 A 19.42 X 0.0024
N 520 A 15.76 X 0.0048
N 522 A 12.75 X 0.0843
N 524 A 47.42
N 88 A 20 X -1.16
N 599 A 219.65
G90
G1 Z0 F100
G1A380X3.5F200
G0 A360
G92 A0
M30
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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You know, its like the feed rate is following the rotary only and ignors the X axis......
Yes, I am in G94 feed per min.
I did the Dia setting in "Settings" under A but it did not make a bit of diff and I shouldnt have to do that. I never use that unless I am in
CV mode.
Hmmmmm still playing with it....
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More info...............
I go in MDI
I do a G91
G1 A 20 X .020 F40---all moves like I am used to and looks fine.
then
G1 A20 X .010 F40-----All moves faster, kind of pushing it for my work
then
G1 A20 X.005 40------And now she takes off like G00
So the smaller the increment in X the faster the feed moves. So its like .......well, I dunno
I can't find any settings that refere to this. I sure as hell didn't change anything. If it aint broke.....well you guys know.
I understand that Mach 3 is a little more sympathetic to those of us that use 4 axis setups. Is that true?
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Hi, Escowizard
I don't understand why, if you haven't changed anything this would happen, is this a larger dia. than before.
Try putting F-speeds in the lines of code giving you problems.
I think A-axis takes over F-speed, maybe reducing your A-axis Vel setting and adjusting your F-speed will solve this.
Just some thought's, Chip
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You may be on to something Chip.
I have two machines, One at day job and one at home. The home machine is much more robust and can handle faster feeds without missing steps and the one at day job is tired and easily misses steps so I do have the velocity slowed up quite a bit on that one.
This particular configuration of movements may not have run very often or may not have been as close in dims on my home machine or may have been in such a small area that it was not noticed. Having two or more movements that small on the X and the degs of 15 or so is not overly common.
I will tweak the velocity down on my rotary and try it. I really appreciate your input.
Art had told me a year or so ago that Mach 3 would be a little more 4 axis (Rotary) friendly and the graphics would be more accurate on the rotary side. Has that evolved in Mach 3 ?
I am thinking about upgrading if it would be a benefit in my cam cutting.
I just started playing around with the demo on an off line PC.
Your thoughts?
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Update
Nope, didn't work.
I tweaked the Vel to almost flatline @ 1.344 and thats down from 9.128
I also pulled back the Accel to 22.12 and that was @ 106.68
Ran it through the prog and I cant see any noticeable diff. hmmmm
Its only when I am making very small X movements and several or a dozen or do degrees.
If it was one or two degs then you don't have it burst out in a race. lol
I have always had problems with herky jerky movements when doing a very fine generation on the cam. Like making a cam that would give me a .010 radius on a .020 dia screw machine part.
Its like 15 steps so you can see it is like 15 incremental movements of a degree or so or less and X movements in the tenths.
I cut the cam as normal and then run CV with a 300. dia setting in "settings" and this usually slows it down enough so I don't get steps on the cam. Like mini stairs. I even have to take a pass without removing anything to clean up vibration mark. All very fine.
The problem with doing CV is it does it on the whole cam. Takes an hour or so just to do 360° Normally its a 20 minute cut.
I tried in the past to just put in the CV G code where I wanted it to be used but the prog reads the whole thing ahead of time so it jumps right into CV from the beginning.
Hmmmmm
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I have 4 axis BP all Geckos and Breakout board. Mach 2.
Why haven't you updated to Mach 3?
Brett
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Hi, Escowizard
Sorry should have commented on Mach3, while I haven't used Mach2 other than fire-it-up to help others, still haven't figured out activation
of 4th axis go figure!
I think you would like Mach3 allot as Art stated, Rotational view is really nice.
Need a computer around 1000 Mhz, have run it on a 600 Mhz though.
Ive got a 4th axis running also, havent done mutch with it except "air cut" some gear teath.
If I can Help let me now.
Thanks, Chip
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The only reason I haven't upgraded is "if it ain't broke" well you know.
It was not available when I got into Mach 2.
I am not one to have the latest, fastest or newest. I do what I need or think I need.........I think I need Mach 3. lol
I will try it out this weekend. Maybe this prob is trying to tell me something.
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Hi, Escowizard
Thy will co-exist and the license is good for both, I understand the If it ain't broke, for sure.
Thanks, Chip
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Hey Escowizard,
I don't know if you are aware of this or not, you can't copy and paste a Mach 2 XML into Mach3. The first time you set up Mach 3 you will have to enter everything manually. I would back up my XML and any screensets you use before installing Mach 3. There shouldn't be any problems, just some quick, cheap insurance.
Brett
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I am working on it now..............upgrading to Mach3
License good for both???
Really? I thought I would need to pay $159 for the Mach3 licence.
wow
How is Art going to make any money this way? lol
Really? same licence?
I did some playing with it this afternoon and I like the error warnings about prog errors. I had nested errors, too many ( ( ) in the same lines. It warned me! cool.
Mach 2 used to just mess up real bad and move the table god knows where.
Kept me honest though. lol
Really? same licence huh?
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Hi, Escowizard
Yes same license, Got it all figured out yet.?
Have Fun, Chip
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Love it
I will for sure...................... ;-)
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Did it.........installed and did some air cuts and it works great!
I absolutely love the 4th axis tool path! Art really did what he said he wanted to do. Its great!!!!
I did screen shots of all my old settings (everything) so it would be easier for me to input all the ports and pins and motor settings and such but there are so many diffs on the new screens that it took me a while.
Even the motor tuning was diff and I used the same vel and accel rates but it showed flatline. Weird but got it eventually.
I did get it to see my limit (homing) switches but still have not been able to get it to home to the switches even though it sees them in the diag page.
I think I have most all set right but obviously not yet. Still working on it.
You guys were right though..........it is better. MUCH.
Thanks for the push.
Love the 4th pos screen!!!! its what I allways needed with screw machine cam cutting.
I dint think I will be able to use Mach3 at dayjob cause its a 400 MHz machine running there. I have a 2.5MHz at home shop.
Thanks to all again.
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Hi, Escowizard
If you Hit "Ref All" and it Homes in the Wrong Direction, under Config, Home Limits Page, you can change the Direction, click on Home Neg Box for that axis.
It may work on your 400 Mhz machine being it prob. cuts slower any way cutting profiles, Get it working good at home first.
New you'd Like It, Chip
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I will spend some time with it. I did get the homing direction reversed but still messing with it.
I feel as I did when FINALLY switched to XP. A little lost but extremely happy.
I absolutely love what Art did with the rotational control! It is so smooth compared to Mach 2. I used to have to go to CV in order to get the small increments not t leave a movement step. Its just wonderful! (think I am happy ? ) lol
Question
In Mach 2 I used on a regular basis the "Z inhibit" function of multipass that was on the program page. I needed this to make 3 passes each a little deeper than the last and then a final cleanup pass.
All I see is the "Z inhibit" button. Thats it, just a button. No settings for how much of a depth or how many passes.
I thought I saw the settings in a page somewhere but after two hours of hunting and not finding it, I figured I had better ask.
Art really really did a good job on the 4th axis toolpath.
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Hi, Escowizard
It's on a old screen.set hears one I modified you might like it, The feature is on the first page bottom Right.
Ill dig up an original if you like just have to look a little.
Give it a try, Chip
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All I see is the "Z inhibit" button. Thats it, just a button. No settings for how much of a depth or how many passes.
I thought I saw the settings in a page somewhere but after two hours of hunting and not finding it, I figured I had better ask.
Art really really did a good job on the 4th axis toolpath.
There is a multi pass wizard that will make a new file with the Passes at the right depths
It worked well last time I tested it...
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Wow Chip! thats great!
It should work perfect when I dump it in Mach3 as it is? You must have already linked it to do what it needs to do then.
Thank you very much.
I did check out the Multi pass Brian, but I was hoping to be able to use the multipass as simply as I used to in Mach2.
Chip, cant I modify the Program page to show the stuff I use and not the stuff I dint use?
You should see the cam I cut last night, it came out just perfect! And not having to use CV, I saved about 45 minutes of machine time.
Thats very important at home cause I run a Ronk style phase converter and with that, and the BP and CNC controller and the PC, never mind the lights, well it all adds up.
My electric this month was $290 and we have gas stove and heat 90% with wood stove. lol
I only have been running the camcuting system for 20 or so hours per week.
Mach3 is definitely the best! Thanks for the push.
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Hi, Escowizard
Make a backup/copy of the 1024chip32sv1.5Q.set, Download Screen4 install it in your Mach3 folder.
If you haven't used it before, it will take some time to get up to speed.
When you start it up, I like to move the Workspace Window to the Right, click on workspace move it off the screen then back on, then
narrow it up .
Before doing anything click on the None Icon bottom of workspace window, If you don't you'll put DRO's all over the place, should default
to this, have asked "No-Joy" .
Best to run it by-it's-self, Mach3 not running, it ask's confusing Questions other wise when you save the file.
I usually use the save-as option and ver # so you can go back if its messed-up.
Give it a try, Chip
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"download screen 4" ??
I don't see a screenshot called "screen4". I am prob having a brain fade but..........now I am at the "download page".
ahh, ok, under Screen Designer. Sorry........on a brain fade for sure lol
I will work on it and follow your suggestions, thanks.
This could be a "How to for dummies". I think we have gotton off of the original post / question but if no one minds I will keep going.
I do have the "homing / limit"switches to the point that they activate the lights on my Bob Campells breakout board and the printer port pin notification icon on the Diagnostics page. I am only using X andZ.
I will be dammed if I can get the switches to do a homing or overtravel. I even did the auto setup in the ports and pins page but it said the correct port and the correct pin but still did not do anything.
Is Mach3 finicy on this?
If the setting screens were not so diff from Mach 2 it might be easier to setup but I haven't changed anything and when I run Mach2, all work and home as normal.
I must be missing some setting in the ports and pins. Got to be. I will find it .....but the camcutting works perfect, the screen you sent works way cool and the "Multipass" is just the balls.
If it never homes again I will still be a very happy camper for sure.
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Hi, Escowizard
Under Config, Ports & Pin's, check to see if the Enabled are Checked and Emulated are Un-checked X.
You may also need to change the state of Low Active also.
If thy Home to the wrong Direction, Under Config, Home & limits, Check the Home Neg as needed, Auto Zero can be selected hear also.
Give it a Try, Chip
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We have a winner!!!!
It appeared to be the "emulation" needed to be unchecked. I had "emulation" and "low active" both checked cause my original settings in Mach2 were set the same or as close to as I could figure out. lol
Going from Mach2 to Mach3 was difficult because I took screen shots of ALL settings and figured I had it made, just plug them all in.
I did not think that I would really have to think. lol
I really appreciate your help. Homing works great now. I am going out to take screenshots of all of Mach 3 settings for future Oops and helping me set it up at day job. I love the extra "tool path" screen. Real nice.
I am going to work on the screen customiser tonight if I get time.
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Copy your xml to a floppy, cd, pin drive and take it to work and load it. It would also be good to have it for an external back up for yours.
Brett
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Oh what a great idea!
Now that should save me a lot of inputs, right? All 3 of our controllers were all built about the same except mine at home is the only 4 axis.
Mine was the first for r&d. We tested it at Day job for like 6 months to prove it out. We loved it. It was so way better than Flashcut and from what we spent $8k less this time around.
For under a grand, we had controller,steppers and better control with more options. Most all of our cam progs are like 40-70 lines but I figured eventually, at home anyway, I would be doing more so I purchased a licence. I still haven't hit 1,000 lines of code but the support and quality is worth 10 times (or more) than what I paid.
We used the old Bandit controllers (Allen Bradly) for power supplies and the case. Then Geckos and Campbell's breakout board and a lot of dubbing around.
Some call it R&D but lets face it, trial and error is dubbing around. lol
At least going through the conversion at home will help me make it more smoothly at day job. Thanks to all the help you guys have given me.
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Yes, that shouid save you a lot of set up time if they are the same. Just be careful. It all depends on how each is wired. I would load the mach 3 xml. from the home PC to the one at work and then compare the ports and pins in the new Mach 3 profile verses the old Mach 2 profile.
Brett
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sounds good.
The same tech that helped wire mine did all the same. He is very anal that way and very meticulous.
He could wire one up ten years from now and he wont change. Good for now, not necessarily in ten years though. lol
I will check (screen shot) all the settings at work with mine at home anyway.
I did screen shot all settings a year or two ago at work but will do updates. I am always tweaking and making stuff better. ITs the big leaps I move slow on.
I did a full cam tonight and it did the multipass and homed to perfection.
My next will be modifying the screens to remove what I don't use, I.E. spindle speeds etc.
Thanks
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All I can say is WOW!
That Screen editor is great! I am just playing around with it and I love it! I can get rid of what I don't use and as I get better at it, add what I would like to use.
Thanks a bunch guys.
I could prob do a dam commercial for Mach3 lol
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;D It is addictive isn't it. ;D
Brett
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Addictive for sure...lol So neat being able to tweak the buttons to what you need.
I put Mach 3 on my day job machine today and got all working, limit & homing perfect.
Can jog smoothly and homes smoothly and everyone is in awe of the toolpath screen that actually shows a whole cam!!! I know, its stupid but we like it.
I think the processor cant handle Mach 3 though cause under MDI or running a prog, it is real "steppy" in all axis. You know, like instead of smooth flow of movement, they step,step step.
I will dub with it some more but I think the 400 just cant handle it.
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Hi, Escowizard
I would try setting the Kernal speed up to 35K under config, Ports and pins, first screen.
You need a Licenc Mach3 to do it and reboot, re-tune the Motor tuning vel and accl setings may help.
Ive got one ill try it on if I get a chance.
It's worth a shot, Chip
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But if you do a 35 kernel, isn't that telling Mach3 your PC is faster than what it is?
I thought the 25 kernel would make Mach3 run slower to match the pc better. Kind of a safety zone.
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Hi, Escowizard
It seems to me with my slow computer it smoothed out the step output some, gotta dig out the slower computer and see.
If you copy your xml and then rename it, set it up to doo some tests, wont change any of your other settings on your original
Mach3Mill.XML File.
Thanks, Chip
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Well,,, kept dubbing with it on Dayjob cam cutter but still got "steppy" motors. Slowed the accel and vel from nothing up to missing steps.
I may bring in my 500 mhz to see if its better than the 400. If that don't cure it, I might bring in my 2.4 from home shop and try that.
If that works, then I will just build a 1 ghz or so for the Day job cam cutter. Cant find any settings that would affect the pulsing of all three steppers.
It runs great under Mach2.
Other than that>>>>>........................Life is good.
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a 400 mhz machine is really pushing the limits of mach3, it should be over a gig. How much ram does it have? I would recommend just building the 1+ gig machine with 512 of ram. You should be able to build one for ~$300 or so. I am sure you have spent at least that much in time messing around with the system.
Chad
Well,,, kept dubbing with it on Dayjob cam cutter but still got "steppy" motors. Slowed the accel and vel from nothing up to missing steps.
I may bring in my 500 mhz to see if its better than the 400. If that don't cure it, I might bring in my 2.4 from home shop and try that.
If that works, then I will just build a 1 ghz or so for the Day job cam cutter. Cant find any settings that would affect the pulsing of all three steppers.
It runs great under Mach2.
Other than that>>>>>........................Life is good.
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Ya, you guys are right of course.
I will put that project on hold for a couple of weeks while I play with Mach3 at home.
Did another cam tonight at home shop and this version is some wonderful.
Its getting hard to leave the screen editor alone though. I keep tweaking. Not normal for me. lol
Should have a faster processor on the day job machine anyway. Been getting away with the discards from corporate out of Mass.
They keep sending up anything broke and say you can have it if you can fix it. Keeps my costs down. lol