Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: mvoros on July 28, 2013, 09:10:23 AM
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Hi All,
Could anybody tell me what makes my spindle start on closing Mach3. I'm using Ethernet smooth stepper and have spindle control board (C41). Is there a setting in Mach or the ESS that puts out a high signal to the spindle on shut down? By the way, I can run the router other ways.
Mike
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Cant see how it can be a Mach issue if it is closed, sounds more like either the C41 or the VFD are the problem in how they are controlling the spindle :(
Hood
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Hi Hood,
Thanks for replying. This issue with the spindle is going on for about 5 weeks between me and Arturo. He keeps saying to wire it the same as a diagram he sent me, but that doesn't work with my VFD. I found a way that makes my spindle programable and to stop on command, C41's relay led lites up, but it doesn't click as it should. I know this is not right, but will do untill I get a different spindle control board. Can you recomend one? I work around the above problem by shutting the control down first and Mach after.
Mike
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I have just done a search for the manual and I think I found it, is this the diagram in it for your VFD?
Hood
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Yes Hood,
However, on the next page (#10) it shows, 3.5 Wiring of Control Loop Terminal, and that is what I'm showing on my pictures.
Mike
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Ok so what that diag shows is you connect CM and FWD together to enable the forward rotation.
It also shows that AI is your analogue input signal and it seems to be referenced to CM.
So really the way Arturo has said to wire in the second pic you attached should work.
What you have in the third pic is basically you have the VFD's rotation permanently enabled as you have FWD and CM connected at all times. When you shut down there is likely noise on the analogue In sterminal and thus the VFD turns the motor.
I am not sure about the C41, I remember I looked at the manual but it was a bit ambiguous as to what some of the terminals were for and I dont think Arturo actually answered when I asked.
I will have another look at the C41 manual and see if I can figure things out but it does seem the way Arturo said in Diag 2 is what you need to do.
Can you tell me, when you had it connected that way and you said it was constantly cycling, was the relay constantly clicking on/off or was it always on?
Hood
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Yes, the relay kept on clicking on and off. Here is the picture of the C41.
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Ok, can you attach your xml, sounds kind of like the step pin is set to the same as the relay output pin.
Hood
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Which version of the C41 do you have?
Hood
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Hood,
It is Rev. 2.1.
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Ok the manual says it converts a step signal to a PWM but the diagrams are misleading, either that or I am not reading it right.
It says to set the spindle to Step/Dir motor yet the pic shows it set to PWM.
Have you tried it set to Step/Dir motor?
Hood
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No I have not, because Arturo always said to set it to PWM. I'll try that tomorrow.
Thanks Hood.
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That is what I just dont follow, the manual seems all mixed up or at least it reads mixed up to me, maybe I just speak/read a different language :D
Hood
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Hi,
Have you had a chance to look at my xmxl yet. Is there a problem there?
Mike
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Hi Hood,
Here is the email I got from Arturo last week. When I asked him why can't he show me the connections on my vfd's sketch I sent him, well I haven't heard from him since.
Mike
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Never saw anything wrong in the xml, well that depends on how you see things in the manual for the C41, looking at it in the pic you have it similar, if reading the text then it is wrong as it says to set up as a step/dir motor.
Hood
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Basically what Arturo had in pic 2 should work if the C41 is as he says in the manual but again it shows in pics to set as PWM but in text as Step/Dir. So ...... well I can only suggest you ignore the pic and try the text and see. If it still doesnt work when you connect as per pic 2 then afraid I have no idea.
An option would be to use an external relay to connect the Fwd and CM and energise the relays coil from Spindle Relays in Mach rather than via the C41.
Hood
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Thanks Hood. I'll get back to you on that.
Mike
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Or you could use a charge pump to connect Fwd to CM.
Ray
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To continue this spindle saga.
What I have done in the last 30 hours. Removed mach3 and all associated programs, Plugins, Brains. Did a clean up and compression of my drive. Loaded Mach3 R 3.043.066 version up, ESS plug in v 10hd2, MPG Brain. Reconfigured Mach. The saved xml didn't load my previous settings up, so I started from scratch. For the spindle, tried step/dir instead of PWM both on the ports/pins spindle set up page and the ESS's page. By the way, I wired the VFD and The C41 the way Arturo insisted I should connect them. The spindle excepts speed commands, and stops on M5, the Relay doesn't click. However, when I exit from Mach it starts up and keeps cycling, the Relay is clicking on/off. When I open Mach the spindle stops. I went back to setting the everything back to PWM, but the same exact thing happens. I'm attaching my wiring diagram, in the hope, that someone takes a careful look at it and tell me if it is wrong. I had Arturo and Hood look at it and they both say it should work. Go figure. I did find a guy on the forum that had similar problems, but I can't find him any more. The most frustrating thing in all this is, that I can't find anybody to send me back my own drawing with the wiring corrected. Is that such a big deal, I ask? Here is hoping someone’ll get me out of this hole. Please, no fancy technical words, just a simple diagram, or explanation.
Mike
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That wiring is correct for your VFD and how the C41 is supposed to work.
If it is not working then it would seem either your VFD or the C41 is not as described in the respective manuals.
One thing you could do as a test. Remove the wire from the C41 that goes to the Fwd on the VFD. If you have a toggle switch then wire it between the Fwd and CM terminal. Command a speed in Mach then close the switch, your VFD should rotate your motor and the speed should be as you called. Now if you open the switch the VFD should stop the motor rotating.
If that is what you get then I would say that it is almost certain that you either have a faulty C41 or it does not work in the way it is supposed to.
Hood
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Hi Hood,
I had to take a day off for personal reason. Today, I did exactly as you outlined in your previous post, the result does point to the C41. The motor stops when I open the switch, but the Relay's LED stays on. Closing Mach the Relay goes off, and the spindle doesn't start as previously. I'm going to order another C41, I did mention this to Arturo, but haven't heard from him since. It is possible that the board is faulty, but I think he doesn't want to admit it. If the new board doesn't work out, than I might scrap all of his products. I must have this machine working. Six months is a long time screwing around.
Mike
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Hopefully you will get it worked out, you have certainly been through the mill with all the issues :(
Hood
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Just thought I would throw in a possible cause to your spindle problem. I had been running early versions of Mach 3 for a few years with no problems. Then I decided to upgrade to the latest version, whilst still keeping the same config settings. Since then I have had a strange thing happen. If I leave the machine on and close down the Mach on the computer the spindle starts at top speed for a split second then stops. I put this down to electrical noise or a ancient LYNX spindle drive as its been a problem on my machine from the outset. I solved the problem easily but turning off the machine before closing down Mach on the computer, just been down and tried turning Mach off first and yes the spindle starts for a split second. Have you tried earlier version of Mach software, or am I just causing you more headaches.
Jim
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My view is that the machine should always be shut down, or put into a safe mode, before closing Mach.
Obviously there are exceptions but if, for example, you are using the parallel port for machine control then the state of the port pins, when Mach is closed, reverts to Windows control and can be a total unknown quantity.
Tweakie.
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Thank you Both,
Yes Jim, I have tried 3 earlier versions of Mach, the same thing with all of them. The only thing that comes to mind is that I use Ethernet Smoothstepper. Greg from Warp9 says it can't be his board. Arturo from CNC4PC also says it is not his board. The version I use now is R3.043.066. Now, the cycle time doesn't count. Is there a setting in Mach to make it work?
Tweakie, that is what I do now, I shut the machine down before closing Mach. But how else would I put the machine into safe mode? The windows is XP, that I made as lean as it can be. Using the ESS is still somewhat like the parallel port. Isn't it?
Mike
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The ESS is different from the parallel port in that it theoretically needs Mach running and needs to be in constant communication with Mach for anything to work. Now that is not to say it can never go wrong but it is unlikely and windows being able to toggle I/O when Mach is not open, like can happen with the PP, is very slim.
Hood
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Thank you Hood. I'm going to risk another C41 spindle control board from CNC4PC.
Mike
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Save your money and get another brand of board from another manufacturer. Personally, I saved (after months of hairpulling with cnc4pc's non user friendly drawings, poor documentation and a complete hassle for technical support) and plunged for a Gecko 540. Haven't looked back.
I know there are other boards available that may be as good as a Gecko or better, but that's what I went with.
NO PROBLEMS since.
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Hi Guys,
I thank you All for your help on this spindle problem. I think I solved it, it was a setting in Mach's Output page. I enabled the charge pump, set it to Port1, Pin16 (my step signal for the spindle), active low. I may add that there is no physical charge pump in my system.
Mike
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Hi All who helped me,
It's been 3 months since my last post regarding this problem, and I'm happy to report I haven't had problems with the spindle. Since the implementation of the ethernet smooth stepper, there were no more crashes. The longest cycle time was 11 hrs on a job.
Merry Cristmas to All
Mike V.
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Good to hear you eventually got things sorted :)
Hood