Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: mvoros on June 04, 2013, 02:11:22 PM

Title: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 04, 2013, 02:11:22 PM
 ::) Hi All,
New ESS installation. Router axis and homing work, the spindle doesn't. It's connected from BOB to C41 spindle control board and to Sunfar 300 VFD. Speed/direction command goes to C41 (relay comes on) VFD says it's running, but no RPM. Measured for dc volt across the analog out pins, no voltage. I tried every settings  nothing brings the spindle alive. It worked before the retrofit. Desperately need help.
Mike  :-\
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 04, 2013, 02:39:01 PM
Have you set the ESS config to the correct spindle output method?
Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 04, 2013, 03:29:35 PM
I don't know any more Hood. I tried every combination there is, accept probably the right ones. Please see the screenshut and the latest XML file
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 04, 2013, 03:57:05 PM
Just had a quick look at the C41 and it is PWM, your SS config above is not PWM, you have it set Step/Dir.
Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 04, 2013, 04:29:34 PM
Now I'm confused. I do have it set for Step/Dir. What about setting the Spindle in Ports and Pins? Do I have to set that also to Step/Dir?
I have the C41 jumper on international mode, because the VFD only has a FWD terminal only, no REV. I would like you to tell me if the C41 and the VFD is wired correctly. I'm attaching a jpg on how I wired it, and a picture of the C41 card.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 04, 2013, 04:37:54 PM
The C41 manual seems to contradict itself, one minute is saying to set Mach Spindle Setup page to Step/Dir then right below that it shows a screenshot of it set as PWM and it shows a base frequency being set of 200.

What I would try is go to the ESS config, set the Spindle control method to PWM and set a base frequ of 200 in there and see if you get anything.
Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hermie on June 04, 2013, 04:52:50 PM
sorry to interject, and correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like he has it set for analog speed control PWM output is kitty corner on the board
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 04, 2013, 04:57:08 PM
Not really sure what you are meaning, never used any CNC4PC stuff but I would imagine all spindle controllers output 0-10v or similar. The input method can be different. This board uses a PWM signal which it gets from Mach, some boards use a step signal but all I think convert that to an analogue output voltage.
Maybe I am seeing things wrong however :)
Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 04, 2013, 05:35:15 PM
I think I see what you are saying now :) By "kitty corner" I presume that is USA parlance for opposite corner :)
The PWM at the opposite corner is the Input signal, ie the signal that it gets from Mach, that signal is then converted to an analogue voltage which is output at the opp... wait a second, the kitty corner :)

Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hermie on June 04, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 04, 2013, 05:55:22 PM
Hi Guys,
Thank you for that. Anyway Hood, I went to the shop and marked the PWM, put in 200Hz for base Hz. No spindle rpm at S2000M3 command. The Relay1 LED lights up and surprisingly Relay2 next to it it also. It shouldn't light up, since there is nothing connected to Relay2, but it does. If you don't mind I'll leave it for tomorrow, I got a splitting headache. Have a nice evening.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 04, 2013, 05:59:28 PM
Mike
that manual is very contradictory and confusing and I can understand why you have a headache, I have one from the few minutes I have looked at it.
 In your diagram you dont seem to have any power to the connector on the top right of the C41, according to the manual it says you should have a power supply voltage there which is compatible with the VFD. What that is meant to mean is a bit ambiguous but I take it that it is meant to mean you take a +v and 0v from your VFD to power the output stage of the C41.

hOOD
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 05, 2013, 07:26:56 AM
Good morning Hood,
The diagram I sent you is showing only the connections of the VFD to the C41. It gets the 5V from the power supply. I'm attaching the whole diagram, also a link to to my Sunfar 300 VFD manual. I still don't understand why  there is no volt across the analog terminals. I read somewhere that the connecting wires to boards should not be soldered. Is that so?
Mike

http://www.kunaimpex.com/admin/images/gallery/pdf/806263833.pdf
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: TOTALLYRC on June 05, 2013, 09:44:45 AM
The C41 board and most other boards that give an analog out need a separate power supply to generate the 10v analog output. In this case it needs to be connected to the connector in the top right corner of the C41 board, marked analog output power on the drawing.
It may be possible to take power from the VFD but I advise caution. It looks like you can use the CM terminal for analog output power ground and the 10v terminal on the VFD connected to the 12v/24 volt terminal of the analog output power supply terminal. I would suggest a separate 12v power supply. If you use the 10v from the vfd you may not get a full 10v for the analog out since there is always some "overhead" required.
HTH,
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 05, 2013, 10:10:05 AM
Hi TOTALLYRC,
What you write is a contradiction to the C41's manual. It (the manual) says the board needs the 5 volt from a 5 volt power supply. It doesn't say it needs a dedicated one. Before I purchased the components, I read the info on everything that I needed, and not fully understanding the manuals, as a precaution I bought a 12 volt PWR supply too. I also have the original 24 PWR supply that the Chinese people put into it ( I took that out). But Arturo said to use only the 5 volt one. You Guys can see what creates the confusion for me.
Mike
Ps.  I don't have anything set in Mach's output page. Could that be why I don't get a voltage reading on the analog output of the C41?
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 05, 2013, 10:26:29 AM
The big problem is the manual is , well to be frank, crap. I mentioned a few posts ago that there is a power connector to the right of the analogue out, the manual mentions it but is not clear what it is for. It says its for an external power supply to enable the VFD, I presume it is meant to power the   analogue output signal but......
 I think you should ask Arturo what gets connected to that power input.
Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 05, 2013, 11:01:49 AM
He is probably pissed of with me, did not respond to yesterday's email. He said 67 emails were exchanged between us. I guess that is too many for a supplier. I'm looking for other spindle control boards now. I wish I could find someone out there who used one of his board.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 05, 2013, 11:34:15 AM
Well all I can say is, TO ME,  the manual is contradictory and confusing so he should be expecting plenty of questions.

I have only ever use one spindle control board and that was a Step/Dir one that Peter Homman  in Australia sold, it was easy to set up and instructions were good. He doesnt do that particular one now but he does to PWM ones.
I also have a friend that has used one from PMDX  and he found it straightforward to set up as far as I know.

Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: TOTALLYRC on June 05, 2013, 12:14:37 PM
The problem with manuals is that they are many times written by somebody who understands the ins and outs of the product. If the manufacturer keeps getting questions it would make sense that they rewrite the manual so it can be understood by those of use who don't have engineering degrees.

IMHO any manual that has contradictions needs to be rewritten.

MVOROS,
If you were close by I would be willing to stop over and help.
Are you anywhere near CT?
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 05, 2013, 01:16:27 PM
Unfortunately no. I'm in Windsor Ontario Canada, just across the river from Detroit. Thank you for offering.
Even Mach3's manual is not clear on this subject. Now all I want to know is, should there be anything set for the spindle in Outputs? This spindle did work before I did the retrofit. It was a usb control card no other boards at all. Of course, I can't use any of those XML settings now.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: TOTALLYRC on June 05, 2013, 03:53:48 PM
I believe that yo need to make sure that the spindle in enable or checked under outputs.
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: arturod on June 05, 2013, 04:12:10 PM
Mike,

Some called my attention to this thread (thanks)....

I understand you have the board clicking the relays like it should, but you are unsure if you are getting an analog output that is proportional to the commanded speed.  You need to measure this at the terminal marked 0-10vdc using as reference the analog output that is next to it.

The fact that the relay is clicking when you command the spindle to turns tells us that you wired the power and the step (PWM) signal OK, and that you did configure mach3 to do spindle control with PWM on the pin you wired.

Remember that the next step is to set tune the spindle to max velocity and max acceleration and set the spindles speed that you spindle will use under pulley settings.

I will be monitoring this thread if you have further questions.

Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 05, 2013, 05:00:20 PM
Hi Arturo,
I thank you for monitoring this tread, and to respond to my recent emails. I think that you're the only one that can pull me out of this hole, because you just got a machine going a few days ago with the same VFD. I read the forums a lot, but every spindle/vfd tread is different. Everything that you told me so far I did to the letter.
This is what is happening:
when I MDI a speed command the LED for relay1 lights up, the fan on the VFD starts to run, and the RUN small LED on the VFD lights up also. But the spindle doesn't run. When I MDI M5 the LED goes out and a few seconds later the fan stops. This tells me that the command goes thru the C41 into the VFD. I just went out to shop to check something. I commanded 10000 rpm, and only 0.02 vdc shows across the 0-10 analog output. I'm buffled as to why the spindle is not running. I could send you my XML file if that helps.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: arturod on June 05, 2013, 06:01:59 PM
Mike,

You need to verify the voltage on the 0-10vdc terminal.  You should get a voltage that is proportional to the commanded speed. Make sure you set spindle under motor tuning to max velocity and max acceleration and that you set the spindle min and max speeds under pulley setting.

Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: arturod on June 05, 2013, 06:11:42 PM
Mike,

I think the relay is configure ok, it is the analog output that is not getting there.  So the VFD tries to start, but it receives no speed command.

Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 06, 2013, 07:41:40 AM
Arturo,
Does the C41 need a second power source to get an analog signal out and if so what pins should be connected to it?
I have a 12v pwr supply from you and have the original 24v one also. Originally the router had 24 v in it.
Can you send your xml file that you had on the machine with the same VFD as mine? I just like to compare it to the one I have. I think, something in Mach is not set right, that's why there is no analog signal.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: arturod on June 06, 2013, 11:02:31 AM
Mike,

No, the C41 does not require an external +12vdc power supply.  We already went through wiring.  It is ok, and you are getting action on the relay, so there are no issues around this.

Please refer to the configuration of the analog output and testing that I have been saying.  The idea is that we confirm the relays and analog output are working like they should before connecting it to the VFD.

I will email you an XML that should work for that, but you will still need to set the pins how you wired it.

I may not monitor this thread any more, please email me.

Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 06, 2013, 06:25:01 PM
What is that power input for?
Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: arturod on June 07, 2013, 05:54:09 AM
Hood,

The C41 is powered with +5vdc.  It has an DC-DC converter built in that generates the isolated +12 that powers the analog circuit.

When using this board with our boards with RJ45 connectors, you just run one CAT5 cable from the breakout board to the board that delivers step, direction and power to the board.  So in these cases an external power supply is not required.

Another thing that can be confusing about these boards is how the relays work, as you do not need to configure relays in mach3, just step and direction.  The board automatically drives the relays based on the step (PWM) and direction signals and the operation mode (International or US).

So for most people this setup is simpler as they have less issues to deal with.  It is just a matter of one CAT5 cable to the breakout board and wiring the VFD, and as far as configuring Mach3, it just a matter of enabling PWM spindle speed control and tuning the spindle axis.

In Mike's case, he is wiring using the terminals.  But the problems he has had wiring this particular board, as there is a wiring diagram for his setup:

http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/JINAN2ESS.pdf

His problem is with setting PWM spindle speed control.  I understand from his last email that he configured it successful, but there were still some issues with the relays.  I think he has some pin conflicts.

Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 07, 2013, 01:53:41 PM
Hi Guys,
I checked the voltage across the analog output terminals, this what happens:
MDI-ing 24000 RPM, relay 1's LED light up, multi meter shows 10.02 volt.
At 12000 RPM it is 5.18 volt.
At 6000 RPM it is 2.97 volt.
MDI-ing M05, stops the spindle command LED goes off ( all this is done with those wires disconnected).
After reconnecting the wires to C41 and powering back up. MDI-ed spindle command, spindle starts up VFD is running also, MDI-ing M5, spindle tries to stop but can't, does this on off until I power off the system. Reset doesn't stop it eather. The machine is not under power at this stage, and when I exit Mach, the spindle spins up, than shuts off. >:(
Mike

Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Chaoticone on June 07, 2013, 04:12:49 PM
Arturo, Should the vfd be configured so that it uses only the analog for direction and speed?  At mid voltage (5V) it would be stopped. 5-0 would be varying reverse speed, 5-10 would be varying forward speed.  

Mike, hook your meter to the analog outs that would go to the vfd with things configured so you get 10 volts at full speed and 5 volts for half speed as you described.  With the meter hooked up see what the analog voltage goes to when you close mach.

Brett
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 07, 2013, 05:43:06 PM
Hi Guys,
So, here is the result of what I did at Brett's request:

Hooked the meter to the analog out terminals, powered  the router only up. Read 0.85-0.9 volt.
Than opened Mach, MDI-ed 24000 RPM, read 9.8 - 10.05 volts.
MDI-ed M5, the spindle stopped.
Tried it again, spindle started, pressed reset, spindle stopped.
OK I said, problem solved. Not quite, when I close Mach, spindle starts up, voltage rapidly fluctuates between 0.0 and 1.5 volt.
However, disconnecting the meter, spindle went back to it's old trick, didn't stop again, tries to stop, but keeps repeating this on-off cycle until I power off. Very strange behavior. Thru out all this both relay LEDs are lit on the C41, there should only be one on.
I hope this tell you Guys something.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: arturod on June 08, 2013, 06:28:51 AM
Brett/Mike,

The VFD you are using does not support direction, just start/stop.  The C41 clicks the relay to start when there is a valid PWM present. The relay will close the contact to start the relay.

Here are some thoughts on what could be going on:

- It is important to clarify that when you say the spindle starts, you are confirming if the relay is clicking, that the LED for the relay lights.  so we can see if that the activation does come from the C41, not from a faulty connection.

- Check the wiring: http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/JINAN2ESS.pdf. Make sure it is exactly like that.  My thinking is that you are using a different common for the connection of step and dir signals or the VFD connections, that is why you see that behavior when you use the multimeter, which closes the contact.  This would also explain why the spindle will start when you close mach3.

Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com

Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 12, 2013, 03:09:30 PM
Hi Guys,
Happy to report that spindle is working now the way it should. At least for now. I talked to Arturo on the phone this morning ( He is a nice Guy too), came to the conclusion that noise may be preventing the spindle from stopping. I used shielded wires for the limits, and also shielded the spindle cable (what the Chinese people didn't do) to the star ground. Well in my wisdom, I disconnected the spindle shielding from the system. And this seamed to solve the problem. Go figure. Now comes the next step in this retrofit saga, implementing the MPG. But that's tomorrow's problem.
Thank you All for helping me.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Chaoticone on June 12, 2013, 04:13:51 PM
 :)

Brett
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 12, 2013, 07:03:37 PM
Good to hear you got it working, noise can be a nightmare and it sometimes seems like curing it needs a bit of black magic.
 VFD's can produce a lot of noise and the cheaper brands can be very bad.
Hood
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: mvoros on June 13, 2013, 09:33:21 AM
Hi Hood,
It looks like I spoke too soon. It was working yesterday, the spindle stopped on M5 command and on reset too. This morning it is the same as before. I have a question: When the system is on, C41 board is on, VFD is on and showing 0 on its display, should I be seeing 0.88 volt across the analog output terminals when the relay LED is not lit?
I put his question to Arturo too, waiting for his replay. I believe this VFD must be the cheapest one they could find in China, the strange thing is that it worked good before the retrofit. I think my ex wife put a curse on me.
Mike
Title: Re: Can't get 2.2KW spindle to work
Post by: Hood on June 13, 2013, 11:01:37 AM
Afraid I know nothing about how the C41 works, you will have to wait for Arturo to reply I think.


Hood