Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: garyhlucas on May 25, 2013, 03:06:16 PM

Title: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 25, 2013, 03:06:16 PM
Working with my mill today, trying to teach my grandson how to jog the machine around and pick up edges. He knows how to do it on a manual mill. He was jogging the x axis in rapid and it wouldn't stop, it ran all the way to the end limit!  I looked into it further and here is what i discovered.

Using the jog pendant brought up by the Tab key. Jog mode set to Step. Use Shift to override step mode. Press an axis key and the axis rapids.  The fun starts when you want to stop.  If you happen to release the shift key before releasing the axis button the axis keeps right on going unless you hit E-stop!  This is completely repeatable and works with all axis.  I'm using mach3 version .066. I am wondering if it my logitech wireless keyboard is the problem. The machine is extremely well shielded with metal enclosures and every motor and control cable properly shielded. Haven't seen any glitches at all.

Can someone try duplicating this problem as described above? I'll try a wired keyboard to see if that is different. This is real machine killer!

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 25, 2013, 06:17:33 PM
Works fine here.
I never use wireless devices on my machines although I am simulating here with a wireless logitech keyboard.
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 25, 2013, 07:32:22 PM
Hood,
I replaced the keyboard with a usb keyboard. Put it in step jog mode, hold shift to make it constant then press an axis direction. It jogs fast. Release the shift key while the axis is still moving, then release the axis key. The axis continues moving with no keys pressed! Scary, does this on all axis. Just waiting for a big expensive crash.

Gary H Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 25, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
Just tested again and works fine here but if you attach your xml I will test with it.
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 25, 2013, 10:27:06 PM
Hood,
Here is my XML. I appreciate you taking a look.

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 26, 2013, 03:54:51 AM
Ok tested fine here as well, however I see you are using an external motion controller. I am not familiar with that particular controller but can say with almost certainty that it is the problem. You will need to contact the makers and ask them to look into the problem.
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 26, 2013, 03:31:38 PM
Hood,
I was afraid you were going to say that. After the last test I did I suspected the same thing. It will be interesting to see if I can get help from them. I bought the board early on before I knew much about Mach 3. I may be forced to buy something else.
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 26, 2013, 05:10:30 PM
That is the sad thing about external controllers, unless you can be fairly sure that the support for problems will be there then its a risk.

Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 27, 2013, 08:31:38 PM
Hood,
I emailed the vendor and they say they have not heard of this problem.  Why do I always hear that?  To their credit they offered to take it back and offered me an Ethernet smooth stepper in it's place. That means a fair amount of rewiring and my control panel is pretty tight, I may have trouble getting it to fit.  However this problem is too serious to ignore in my book. So I am going to take them up on it. Also I think it might provide an upgrade path to Mach4, that I am sure doesn't exist right now.

In looking at all the controllers and breakout boards out there, plus looking at all the boards available for 3D printers I am absolutely amazed at how poor the board designs are, and how bad the documentation is!  The board I bought first was actually documented very well.  It had useable mounting holes.  Mounting holes? It actually had mounting holes?  Wow!  The people making these boards need to watch some customers struggling to understand the Chinglish.  They need to try mounting one of their own boards.  4mm holes drilled with a handheld drill is tough to do.  What the heck would be wrong with large holes, and room for washers? It appears that the shelf life of electronics is about 15 minutes too.  The board we sold you is bad? So sorry, we replace with another completely different one, no charge!

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 28, 2013, 03:26:25 AM
That is the main problem with external controllers, especially ones that originate for China, ie the support for problems may not  be there. The ones such as Smoothsteppers, CSMIO, DSPMC, Kflop etc all have a proven track record and are likely to be around and supported for a long time yet. Suppose you never can tell, something could happen to one of these companies tomorrow and thats the end of it but the big advantage is they all have proven track records so likely you know what they are capable of and if support did stop tomorrow then you can still use them.
 Regarding Mach4, if I understand correctly it will be much easier to write the plugin for an external device with Mach4 however I think the companies have to provide some sort of proof that they will be in it for the long haul before they will get the information to allow them to make a plugin. That can be seen as a bad thing in a few cases I suppose but for the vast majority of cases, and more importantly the users of such devices I think it will be a good thing. Also I think Artsoft are a fair company so even if someone wants to make a plugin for their own personal  device that they are not intending to sell then I think Artsoft will accommodate them as long as some guarantees are given.

Now which controller, well the Ethernet Smoothstepper works very well and is a very nice controller, I have one on the big lathe and a USB one on on the Beaver mill. The big disadvantage of them to me however is they are 5v and I like my machines to be 24v for noise immunity, that means I have to convert everything.
 I am now using the CS-Lab products on two of my machines and for me they have huge advantages, 24v I/O analogue I/O etc etc, that however may be a disadvantage for some, especially if just wanting to add to an existing machine as it means rewiring will definitely be needed. Personally I think the advantages of 24v I/O far outweigh any disadvantages of having to rewire but often people do not want to do that and are quite happy with 5v.

Just some of my thoughts ;)

Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: BR549 on May 28, 2013, 03:08:35 PM
HIYA GARY Most keyboards have a repeat function if you hold down the key. It would depend on HOW you have the JOG function set in the popout pendant. Cont ? Step? Step Size?

If you were set up for Step jog and your steps size was 1" then when you held down the jog key it could buffer up a LOT of moves and appear the machine is out of control BUT all it is doing is trying to move as commanded.

Hit {ESC} to stop the buffer from running further. It may be best to set your jog to CONT and reduce the feedrate to a slow % until everyone gets used to the movement.

The Machine will ONLY be a safe as the operator's understanding of it's functions.

(;-) TP
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 28, 2013, 09:08:18 PM
Hood,
I work with PLCs almost every day and everything is 24vdc.  In fact my machine has a PLC in it, and all my I/O is 24vdc.  The inputs to my current breakout card were done using 24vdc and dropping resistors. That should work with the smooth stepper for the input side.  The steppers drives use 5vdc inputs so that should be okay as well.  So the one problem are is the inputs to my PLC originating from the smooth stepper. However the PLC happens to have an analog input card with 4 channels that can be configured for 0-5v input, so I may just use that for the few inputs I actually need right now. It would be nice though if they designed these cards  to work with standard industrial voltages.

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 28, 2013, 09:09:47 PM
I have it set for step mode 0.100", with the shift key override putting it in continuous.
The operator here could be 9 years old!  I am not worried about him getting hurt, he's outside the plexiglas doors. I did try another keyboard and it did the same thing.  However the idea that it could be key repeat is into the keyboard buffer is interesting, I'm going to have to test that.  Years ago my wife kept making mistakes typing on a computer that she never made on a typewriter.  We found out that she could type so fast that she would overrun the keyboard buffer and loose characters!  She had to force herself to slow down.  Man, I wish I could type like that!

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Sam on May 29, 2013, 12:48:03 AM
I believe the smooth stepper had the issue you are describing a while back. I believe that one of the past plugin updates fixed the issue. I recently started using the smooth stepper, and also have a runaway problem. The shift (rapid) does not cause the runaway, but rather the control key. Hold the control key down, then hold one of the arrow keys down, release the control key while still holding the arrow key= runaway. I thought that I most likely had configured something incorrectly, and needed to dig a bit in order to find out my mistake. There is no way this bug could have slipped through I thought, because step jogging (ctrl key) is common place. I was talking with Brett the other day and mentioned the problem, and he too, confirmed the behavior on his machine. I have a USB SS and Brett has the ethernet SS, so it appears with both models. Also, using the ESC key for an E-stop does not always work when the runaway occurs. You must mouse over to the RESET on the screen and click it. Try figuring that one out in the heat of battle. My "fight or flight" senses were tweaked! It would be nice if another person could confirm this bug. Hood? Terry? Please and thanks in advance?
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Tweakie.CNC on May 29, 2013, 04:03:15 AM
Hi Sam,

Same thing happens here with both versions fd and efb of the plugin.

However, I have not determined if this is a USS issue or a Mach3 issue ?? (obviously one or the other is sending out the un-requested series of step pulses).

Tweakie.
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 29, 2013, 04:15:22 AM
I dont think I am seeing that here while testing with the SS.
 What I have tried.
Have setting to Continuous mode and step size to 1, 0.1, 0.01 or 0.001. I then press Ctrl key and then hold an arrow key on my keyboard down then release Ctrl key whilst still holding the arrow. When the axis has reached the increment value it stops.
Am I doing it the way you are meaning?
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 29, 2013, 04:28:03 AM
Ok I have tried all sorts of combinations and can not get that to happen.
I have tried holding Ctrl and then press and hold arrow then release Ctrl whilst arrow is still held, works as expected.
I have tried holding Ctrl then arrow then release arrow and press again then release Ctrl, still fine.
I have tried holding Ctrl then arrow then release Ctrl and press again then release arrow, still fine.
Also tried a few other combinations and all fine.

I have tried 057 and 066 versions of Mach but only have 17d version of SS plugin here so it may an issue with newer plugins or possibly I am not doing the right combination of arrow/ctrl key release?
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Sam on May 29, 2013, 02:45:18 PM
Very strange Hood. You did do the combination correctly. I have the 17d version also. I have also tried several versions of Mach, but not the ones you have.
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 29, 2013, 03:14:41 PM
What version are you using and I will test here with it.
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Sam on May 29, 2013, 03:19:01 PM
50,56,58, and 62. There was a runaway issue with the shift key that was fixed with an earlier SS update, so I just assume the problem lies with the SS, not Mach.
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Chaoticone on May 29, 2013, 03:46:41 PM
I can repeat it here Sam.  I spoke to Greg about this a while back and was supposed to talk to Brain and see if he had any ideas and forgot to..  :-[  If Hood can't repeat it though I think it may be something in our setups.  No idea if this will make any difference or not but what kind of keyboards are we all running?

USB here.

Brett
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Sam on May 29, 2013, 03:48:24 PM
PS2
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Chaoticone on May 29, 2013, 03:51:15 PM
Also, what screen sets are we all running?  I think I tested with the standard 1024 set but will double check.

Brett
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Sam on May 29, 2013, 03:52:06 PM
standard also
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 29, 2013, 05:03:54 PM
OK USB wireless keyboard and standard screenset here.
Can you try changing the name of your plugin folder then creating a new one and only putting the SS plugin in it?
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Chaoticone on May 29, 2013, 07:10:20 PM
Hood tried a few more things and can't get it to show up for him so I'm going to try to do some test in the morning.  If you don't here from me by noon, remind me.

Brett
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: jonny quest on May 29, 2013, 07:45:21 PM
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,19986.0.html

I had this same problem.  I fixed it by messing around with continious or step button highlighted under the pendant flyout controller.

I don't remember exactly what I did to fix it... but I just kept clicking and unclicking until it went away. Works flawless now.
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: jonny quest on May 29, 2013, 07:55:06 PM
I think I found the BUG.

The little flyout pendant in Mach... when you have it in step mode it doesn't stop. When in continous mode it works like it should.


http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,23879.msg168302.html#msg168302
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Sam on May 29, 2013, 08:25:36 PM
Jonny, your input is appreciated! However....I'm always in cont. mode, and still get the runaway.
Hood, I will try that tomorrow when I'm in the shop.
Thanks guys!
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Chaoticone on May 29, 2013, 08:53:09 PM
I think I know whats going on.

I think it is going to be a step mode hot key assignment.  Here is the way to get it to repeat.

Open the MPG fly out so you can see it.
Set your slow jog rate low to start with for safety.
In cont. mode.
Start jogging with an arrow key and hold it down
Press the Ctrl (control) key and hold it down.  You will see step and cont. mode are both now active.
Let off the arrow key
Let of the Ctrl Key, the axis should continue to jog.
Pressing either direction arrow key for that axis will stop it.

My set up uses a pendant that selects velocity only or multi step for the mpg and my (Hoods) screen does not have the MPG fly out.  I never use con't mode and can't even activate it using my (Hoods) screen. So I would have never found it in normal use.


Brett
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Sam on May 29, 2013, 08:56:16 PM
Hood, I did what you said and still get the runaway. Bear with me here, I'll break your machine too, I just need to get the instructions right. I was incorrect on the key press sequence (oops).
You need to.....hold arrow key, then hold ctrl, then release arrow key. Tadaaaa!!!
At any rate, I bet that Brett is getting ready to squash this bug.
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 30, 2013, 02:52:47 AM
Yes that does it.
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 30, 2013, 11:05:02 AM
I have just tested it with the PP as the controller and it doesnt do it so looks like SS/ESS issue.
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 30, 2013, 07:29:32 PM
So just to chime in here. I reported a problem with Shift and arrow keys on a different motion control board, and now you are telling me that the same kind of problem exists with the CTRL key on the smooth stepper that arrived today?  DOH!!!!  Any chance the fix for the Smooth Stepper will also fix my problem?

The smooth stepper board looks very nice! A big +5 just for having large mounting holes!  A -5 for the vendor Automation Technologies for shipping a board without even a single sheet of documentation!  Hey guys, how about crumpling up the documentation and using it for packaging materials? I think I will pay you by check next time.  Only I won't bother signing it.

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Chaoticone on May 30, 2013, 10:29:26 PM
Yes Gary, it will be the same in the SS for now.  We are weighing our options on how best to address it now.

Brett
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Sam on May 30, 2013, 10:59:49 PM
I would be willing to bet if you didn't bother signing the check, they wouldn't bother shipping the product. Yeah I suppose they could add a manual with the shipment, but then it would only be fair to bump up the price to cover the printing cost, and the time to get it printed, etc... Then they would constantly be having to print revised copies because who wants an out of date manual. I will just take the board, and get the latest software on the website. Support is free, too. Can't really ask for more than that. Honestly, when I get a piece of hardware, no matter what it is, the CD almost always never gets opened. First order of business is to go to the website and get latest drivers. I'll keep the bare bones, and minimal price, please. I completely know where your coming from though. It may seem like they are cheaping out, and don't really care after they have your money. i can assure you that is not the case.
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Hood on May 31, 2013, 02:54:48 AM
Quote
Any chance the fix for the Smooth Stepper will also fix my problem?
Gary, if the ESS/SS plugin gets fixed, assuming it is the problem (looks likely from my tests) then it will fix the SS/ESS but it would do nothing for your other board. To get that fixed it would require the makers of them to address the problem in their plugin.
Hood
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 31, 2013, 01:45:55 PM
Sam,
I don't buy the whole out of date and printing cost argument. I had a product of my own 20 years ago and bought a laser printer back then just to print the manuals from the latest WordPerfect file. Producing a manual forces you to think about how your product actually works and reduces your support costs because you can politely say that is covered in the manual. Please have a look and tell me how we could make it clearer.

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 31, 2013, 01:48:54 PM
Yes Gary, it will be the same in the SS for now.  We are weighing our options on how best to address it now.

Brett

Brett,
Are you associated with Mach3 or Warp9?

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Chaoticone on May 31, 2013, 01:58:15 PM
Gary, I work for Newfangled Solutions which are the owners of Mach3.

Brett
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: garyhlucas on May 31, 2013, 10:15:31 PM
Brett,
Okay, it's nice to know who is who when you are new.  By the way, I thought the documentation for Mach3 was excellent. I read all of it.

Gary H. Lucas
Title: Re: SERIOUS jog problem!
Post by: Chaoticone on May 31, 2013, 10:39:03 PM
Thanks Gary,
I can't take any credit for that but I agree they are excellent.

Brett