Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: rwf71 on May 15, 2013, 08:20:06 PM
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(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa27/rwf71/bth_DSCI0532.jpg?t=1368613968)My barely used, 20 some year old Rotozip and original box.
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(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa27/rwf71/bth_DSCI0534.jpg?t=1368613927)
My Christmas present to me, super PID, fresh out of the box.
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Didn't take pics of the IR sensor install but went very well, ended up with a solid,dustproof durable mount.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa27/rwf71/bth_DSCI0535.jpg?t=1368613853)
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(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa27/rwf71/bth_DSCI0537.jpg?t=1368613795)
Zip tied to a table leg.
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Super PID mounted on mock up panel and wired for manual control. Not running, spindle view mode.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa27/rwf71/bth_DSCI0538.jpg?t=1368613732)
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And finally running under manual control at 5000 rpm, (5006 rpm)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa27/rwf71/bth_DSCI0539.jpg?t=1368613678)
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Ok, so far so good. My BOB has 3 relays, I each at output 14,16 & 17. I went to config>ports and pins>spindle set-up, took the check from "disable spindle relays", set both M03 & M04 to output 1.
Then go to outputs tab, enable output 1 ,port 1. pin 14. Save and apply as needed along the way. Ran the PID start circuit through a set of N.O. contacts on the relay at output 14 on the BOB and PRESTO ! Router turns on and off through Mach 3 commands, Pretty cool. 8)
Now here's where I'm stuck, I want to control speed through Mach 3 as well but the only 2 outputs I see left on my BOB are both connected to relays just like 14 that I'm using for spindle ON/OFF control, How do I get the PWM signal from Mach 3 through or around this BOB and get it to the Super PID ?
thanks, Rick
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa27/rwf71/bth_BufferBoarddd.jpg?t=1368658884)
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Don't know how I only got half a BOB in that last post ?
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa27/rwf71/BufferBoarddd.jpg)
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It looks like you may need to interupt the signal before it gets to the bob or replace the bob with something else that does what you need. If you get really creative you might be able to remove one of the relays but the optioisolator may not be fast enough for your needs,
Mike
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Hey TOTALLYRC,
I haven't posted anymore because it didn't look like this thread had any interest. I had to "map out" the BOB on my own as no info is to be had. I found pp pins 2-9 as step/direction for 4 axises, and 14,16 &17 are the relay outputs that are seen at top of BOB. PP pin 1 is in the db25 header on the BOB and soldered on backside of BOB, but I looked at the BOB with a bright light, through the BOB from both sides, and there are no traces at db25 pin 1 on the BOB. It is a unused and therefore Wasted possible output pin from Mach 3. >:(
I soldered a wire on pin 1 under BOB and used that as the pwm output from Mach 3 to the Super PID. The Super PID instructions say it can take input directly from the pp because it has optoisolation separating the control and mains. I now have Mach 3 totally controlling the Rotozip like a "real" machine tool spindle, M3 or M4 turns it on, M5 turns it off, add in an S(insert rpm here) and the Super PID & Rotozip deliver commanded rpm. ;D
I'm a pretty happy camper, :D, I do have one small problem to work out though. If I turn the zip on manually with the toggle and use the pot for speed control I get 5,000 - 30,020 or sometimes a little more (30,200). But when under Mach 3 speed control the zip maxes out at 24,200 no matter what numbers I put in the spindle pulley config of Mach 3. :-\ I started with 0 and 30,000 , tried dozens of other upper end numbers and never got above 24,200 rpm on the rotozip. I finally setteled for now on 0 and 23,350 because that gives the best correlation between commanded and actual rpm, pretty good actually right up to 24,000 rpm but any commanded rpm above only gets 24,200.
I more than likely won't want to run my spindle above 24,200 anyhow so I don't really see it as big deal because Mach3 speed control works great from 5,000 to 24,000 rpm. I have just sent an email to Super PID tech support explaining my set up and results. Time will tell if they have any idea what's going on.
I thought this post might be helpful to someone else as I SURLEY can't be the only one who ever got one of these oddball BOB's. Maybe I'm just the only one stubborn enough,(dumb) to find a way to use it. ::)
Rick
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Hi Rick,
It may have something to do with how the super PID interacts with Mach3. It could even be a limitation based on your Kernel speed but I am not sure.
Glad to see that you got it (mostly) sorted.
Mike
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Post away Rick! Just because others aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't looking.
Brett
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Thanks Brett,
My funky BOB got helped/improved a bunch thanks to the Scorpion differential output board, ;). Now I think I've found a way to get the pwm signal from Mach 3 through the BOB and still have the remaining 2 relay outs for vacuum , coolant , etc.
Rick
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For a fellow that claims to know little of electronics.......... you have done real good. :)
Brett
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Thanks Brett,
I can assure you it isn't a false claim, but I'm trying to soak up as much as I can. :) Val from Super PID has responded and Roman wants me to check voltage on the pwm output and report back, I will do so as soon as I get the time. They also suggested maybe a Mach 3 setting limiting rpm? They aren't Mach guys so I'm asking here. I'm still using Mach 3 in demo mode because my machine isn't finished yet, does demo limit rpm ?
Rick
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Hey Rick,
Cant remember, are you running the parallel port or something else? As Mike said, it could be your Kernel speed. Demo mode does lock this to 25KHz.
Brett
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Yes Brett,
Just one pp in my set-up and 25khz kernel speed.
Rick
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Ok folks,
I have some new info to post. When checking voltage as Val & Roman of Super PID asked, here is what I found. When the S-PID is under manual control via the speed pot, (where it works perfect), the voltage is 0 -4.8 vdc. When under Mach 3 control via pwm output the voltage is 0 - 3.7 vdc. Obviously the S-PID isn't the problem, it's Mach 3 or the computer running it.
I'm thinking the computer. When I was sorting out getting my Panasonic servo drives and Mach 3 to play together I found the direction signal from the computer was this same 0 or 3.7 vdc. But this signal was good enough for the drives after feeding it to the Scorpion differential output board which outputs both 0 and 5 vdc from a separate 5 vdc power supply.
Before I checked & found direction signal at 3.7 I was told by Hood I should get either 0 or 5 vdc depending on direction command from the computer. As I said, the 3.7 seems to be fine for direction thanks to the Scorpion but it isn't fine for the pwm input to the Super PID.
Anyone have any ideas or suggestions as to why my computer only puts out 3.7 vdc instead of the expected 5 vdc ? ???
Thanks in advance, Rick
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Many of the newer PPorts are on the 3.3v standard not the 5v as in days gone by.
One of the reasons that we run a BOB is to buffer and isolate the signal. Many also give a full 5.0v on the output.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
If my pc is 3.3 on the pp I understand that the output to the S-PID would be low because I'm bypassing the BOB to get it there. But the 3.7 I found on the direction out from BOB was after going through the BOB. So are you thinking my BOB not "boosting" the dir out to 5 vdc is just another sign this BOB is crap?
The computer I'm using isn't newish by any means. Is there a way to go to "my computer" or something like that in Windos XP and see the pp output voltage?
Thanks for your help. Rick
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The only way to check voltages that I know of is with a volt meter. While I won't say that your BOB is crap, The better ones give you a full 5v.
Mike
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Kinda seems I did check voltage when on the S-PID because the 3.7 vdc was coming directly from the P port and 0 vcc (ground) was directly from the computer case. Still seems strange to me though, I thought computer power supplies were pretty tightly regulated. My very limited knowledge would make me think I should have found either 5v or 3.3v Is it a "low" 5v or a "hi" 3.3x ? I thought most pp outputs basically have 2 voltages, so makes for an out with 2 states, on/off , hi/low. But this pwm output is a variable voltage signal if I'm understanding this right, Would that make a difference in it's max voltage out ?
I guess my next question is, is there a way to convert / transform or amplify this 3.7v max to 5v max variable voltage ? Come on computer and electronics guys/gals, I need help Please !
Thanks, Rick
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PWM is still just on and off but the time on vs the time off is what gives the differing voltages.
My suggestion would be to buy a high quality BOB.
Notice what my tag line says.
Somebody much smarter than me may know of a good way to up the voltage.
Mike
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There are pp buffers out there. I would probably follow mikes advice and get a good BOB though.
Brett
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BINGO !! Go It.
Well I found the problem, Had nothing to do with Mach 3, the computer, the Super PID, or the BOB. Problem turned out to be the BOOB that hooked things up. :-[
I was reading through/searching the Super PID thread over on the cnc zone. Read about computers using pwm output and only outputting 3.3v being a problem with S-PID version 1. So Roman came up with a converter to fix the problem that could be purchased from S-PID for 5 bucks.
For S-PID version 2 (which is what I have), the converter circuit is built into the S-PID. Sounds like the problem I have has been found & fixed a long time ago, wonder why it isn't working for me? Then I read a post where a guy was using pwm & a switch to use the pot as an option, (which is what I'm attempting to do as well), and he posted a pic of his wiring. Something about it looked different than mine so I looked closer. Well when I checked my wiring I found I had wired for switching between pot and 0 -5v instead of wiring for switching between pot and pwm as I should have, DUH ! ::)
Both set ups are shown on the same page of the Super PID "advanced connections" docs and I musta had a brain fart and followed the wrong one. I rewired the Super-PID correctly and I must say , it is SUPER. Mach 3 spindle pulleys at 0 min and 30,000 max and the commanded speed and actual speed are less than 50 rpm apart anywhere in the 5,000 to 30,000 range. Why that's SUPER ! ;D
This isn't my first mistake and surely not the last. Thought I needed to post this so folks would know Mach3 and the Super - PID work together GREAT,,,,,,,,if ya hook'em up right. ;)
Rick
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:) Glad you got it sorted Rick. And don't feel bad, we all do things like that. Thanks for posting as it may well help others.
Brett
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Hi Rick,
Glad to see it fixed as well. It takes a real man to stand up and say I did it incorrectly on a public forum.
Thanks for the update.
Mikr
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Well, stuff happens, ya know?
I'm pretty sure it's Brett's fault for commenting on how well I'm doing with this electronics stuff,,,,,,,,,jinxed me I think. ::) Na, just kidding. Like I said, not my first and surely not my last mistake. I figure people who don't make mistakes either aren't doing anything or they lie. ;) I wanted anyone who might be thinking of going the Super PID route to know my difficulties were of my own making.
I think it's pretty great to take a cheap run of the mill router and transform it into a computer controlled machine tool spindle for the price of the Super PID.
Rick