Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: theoldguy on March 24, 2013, 11:26:48 AM
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Not sure if this is the right place for this post, if not then my apologies in advance as I am new to this Forums ways/layouts :)
My issue is that when using the ESS system I can only get the spindle to run constantly at 2200rpm or less, it will run at higher speeds but not for long and it appears that the higher the speed (Max 4000) the quicker that everything "drops out" and goes to "E Stop Condition".
Pressing the on screen Mach3 "Reset" button will reset the system and the spindle can be started again straight away.
There are no "error" or "alarm" messages and no fault lights on the spindle drive.
Setup is :-
Latest Mach3 lockdown 66 version (62 version has also been tried but just the same)
Latest Smoothstepper version ESS_v10h2d1a (Version ESS_v10eb1a has also been tried but same issue)
CNC Doctor isolated spindle step/dir to Analaog converter http://www.cncdoctor.co.uk/b1-vsc-v1_64.html
Motion Control simple BOB, straight through no electronics on board
Smoothstepper ESS board
Spindle motor 4000rpm Brushed DC Servo with Tacho feedback to drive
Sprint Electronics DC Motor drive (New)
Everything looks OK, output to the Sprint DC Motor from the step/dir to analog is correct, eg, set 2000rpm in MDI in Mach3 and the output is 5Volt DC, 3000rpm will output 7.5Volts DC, drive has been adjusted to give the actual correct rpms for these inputs and with a cheap Laser Tacho speed checker speeds are within acceptable tolerances. The "ramp up" has been backed right off so I don`t think it is that.
I am sure it has to be a setting either in Mach3 or the ESS plugin that I have missed/got wrong but for the life of me I can`t find anything that makes any difference. It all works OK on a Parallel port but I am trying to get away from using these due to problems with "pins" going down.
Any/all help no matter how great/small will be much appreciated as this is costing me a fortune in headache pills :) :) :)
Regards
Rob
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Maybe try reducing the pulse width in the ESS plugin for the spindles step/dir signal.
Hood
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Maybe try reducing the pulse width in the ESS plugin for the spindles step/dir signal.
Hood
Hi Hood
Thanks for the reponse, worth a try, if memory serves it is currently 5us, same as Mach3, the machine is at work so I can`t try it till tomorrow, let you know how it goes :) :)
Regards
Rob
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Could also just be noise tripping the ESS, you may want to set a small value in the ESS plugin for the E-Stop filtering.
Hood
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Could also just be noise tripping the ESS, you may want to set a small value in the ESS plugin for the E-Stop filtering.
Hood
Thanks, I`ll have a look at that as well, it is a possibility although the "tipping point" is very specific, spindle will run all day at 2200rpm, at 2250rpm it will go into E stop condition in around 15 minutes run time :) :)
Regards
Rob
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it could be that the spindle produces more noise (electrical) at higher revs.
Hood
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it could be that the spindle produces more noise (electrical) at higher revs.
Hood
I agree, could be possible, the spindle is after all a DC Brushed Servo motor so will be producing some electrical "noise" for sure, why it would manifest itself at that specific point is a mystery though.
I won`t make any of the suggested mods on the PC that is running the machine, right now I have to get some work out the door, I do however have another PC that I have fitted with a new SSD drive and a new clean install of XP Pro, there is nothing elese on the PC only Mach3 with the ESS plugin and the "Configurator" software so I`ll make my changes there and use it for testing :) :)
Regards
Rob
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OK, I did try changing the pulse width from 5us to 3us, didn`t make a difference.
Also tried putting a value in the E Stop noise filter, now it got really weird ???
Spindle would now run at the full max speed of 4000rpm without tripping out, however the E Stop still did, it stopped the axis movement but not the spindle, that just kept running, Mach reset button flashing as it should (Now here is the weird bit) but when pressed the spindle then stops ???
Not had time to try anything else today, trying to get work out ;D ;D
Regards
Rob
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What value did you put in? It should be low, maybe 1.43 or maybe 2.86 but not too high, go over 10 and you may run into delay issues.
Hood
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I did start with the lowest value of 1.43, was thinking of working my way up a level at a time in multiples of the base 1.43, if I get time I`ll try another step today ;D ;D
Thanks again for your input, much appreciated ;D
Regards
Rob
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Update :-
Today I got some work done and also tried a couple of things but nothing changed, still the same issue, everything will run fine at spindle speeds of 2200rpm and below.
Even tried a different PC with a different version of Mach3 and a different Smoothstepper Plugin, I didn`t transfer the XML file from the original PC, instead I opted to do the new one from scratch, still exactly the same.
As for "noise" issues, I even got an old mains drill that the brushes are shot on and ran it inside the mani cabinet with all the electronics, it is so bad that at around 5~6ft from a radio it blanks the radio, didn`t make any difference, should have sent everything haywire in my mind. ??? ??? ???
Regards
Rob
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If you want to attach your xml I will have a look and see if there are any issues in it.
Hood
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OK, will do, it will be later tomorrow as I have some shopping to do in the morning ;D
Regards
Rob
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Hi Hood
XML file attached, thanks for your time looking at this ;D ;D
Regards
Rob
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I thought you were controlling the spindle speed from Mach but looks like you must be doing it externally, is that correct?
Hood
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I thought you were controlling the spindle speed from Mach but looks like you must be doing it externally, is that correct?
Hood
Not as far as I am aware, all speed commands are done in Mach and step pulses are output from Pin 1 via a straight "pass through" BOB to a step pulse to analog 0~10 volts output converter and the 0~10 Volts are fed to the input of the DC Drive unit, that`s all there is.
Regards
Rob
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Thinking about what you said I suppose it is external in a way, as I see it the ESS takes the Mach3 "numbers" ie axis motors, coolant and spindle etc so looking at the system that way then the control will be from the ESS motion control card and not actually from Mach.
Did that make sense ??? Did when I typed but not when I re-read it ::) ::)
Regards
Rob
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Well the attached xml seemed to not have the spindle options set in the plugin, ie you have it set to Relay or None rather than Step/Dir. Maybe I looked at the wrong xml, will look again.
Hood
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Just looked again and you dont have the spindle set up in ESS so possibly you attached the wrong xml?
Hood
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Definitely was set to step/direction, yes I agree that it doesn`t show in the XML file in the ESS section, the setting for the pulse width is there, showing as 5us, all the other settings are as I did them.
Looking like the ESS plugin may not be transferring that setting to the XML file and/or loading it to the ESS card, a "bug" maybe ???
Regards
Rob
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Your xml doesnt have any spindle settings in the ESS plugin, see screensot, no pulse width here but then that is likely because its set to relay or none.
Hood
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The xml should contain all the settings you have entered, even ESS ones. That is of course as long as you have shut Mach down after making the changes as that is the only time the data actually gets saved to the xml.
Hood
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The xml should contain all the settings you have entered, even ESS ones. That is of course as long as you have shut Mach down after making the changes as that is the only time the data actually gets saved to the xml.
Hood
Yes, Mach was shut down and re-opened each and every time I made any changes, done it so many times it is habit now :)
From your observations and my own testing it looks as though it must be that the ESS Plugin is not writing the changes to the XML properly, I`ll do some more testing of making changes in the ESS Plugin and double check what is or is not being written into the XML, would I be correct in thinking that if it isn`t writing correctly to the XML then it probably isn`t writing to the ESS card properly either ???
Regards
Rob
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You would really have to ask Greg about that but any time I have checked someones xml or looked at my own it reflects the settings they have.
Hood
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You would really have to ask Greg about that but any time I have checked someones xml or looked at my own it reflects the settings they have.
Hood
Hmmm, I have looked at the XML again, not well up on what I should be looking at/for but it does seem to me that the changes are there after all !!
The spindle does look to be in step/direction mode, see attached image, it a screen grab of the file I uploaded that I just opened in IE and it looks right to me ???
Regards
Rob
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Ok just wondering, where are you setting Step/Dir spindle mode and also pulse width?
Hood
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Ok just wondering, where are you setting Step/Dir spindle mode and also pulse width?
Hood
Usual Mach3 setup regarding spindle step/dir under "Ports & Pins" plus having to set again both the mode and pulse width in the ESS Plugin, no other settings in the plugin, it is very odd for sure, I ran a program on a small mould today at the 2200rpm for 4 hours 22 minutes, ran faultlessly. When it was finished I changed the spindle speed to 3000rpm and it went to "E Stop condition" in just 26 seconds ???
I have sent a copy of the XML to Greg for his perusal, just waiting to hear back from him ;D ;D
Regards
Rob
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You dont set step/dir in the spindle options in Mach, you do it in the ESS plugin. The Pulse Width on motor tuning page is not used by the ESS, you need to set that in the plugin.
If you do that and it is not sticking then there is definitely a problem.
Hood
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You dont set step/dir in the spindle options in Mach, you do it in the ESS plugin. The Pulse Width on motor tuning page is not used by the ESS, you need to set that in the plugin.
If you do that and it is not sticking then there is definitely a problem.
Hood
The step/dir option is set in the ESS Plugin as is the Pulse Width, if the settings in Mach are ignored by the ESS then it shouldn`t matter what they are set to yes ? ?
I do have them set both the same anyway so there shouldn`t be a problem, as I see it there is no way to not have any spindle settings in Mach unless I disable that by checking the "Relay" checkbox yes ? ?
Regards
Rob
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Thats correct, settings in Mach are ignored. I am wodering why I do not see that you have them set in the xml, could be just I have an older plugin but I still think thats unlikely.
Do they stick for you? ie if you set them and restart Mach then go back into the plugin config are they still set?
Hood
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Thats correct, settings in Mach are ignored. I am wodering why I do not see that you have them set in the xml, could be just I have an older plugin but I still think thats unlikely.
Do they stick for you? ie if you set them and restart Mach then go back into the plugin config are they still set?
Hood
Yes, they are still set in the plugin
Regards
Rob
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Ah ok I misunderstood, can you attach your xml again and I ill see what it looks like this time.
Hood
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OK, here it is again, Ihave had to rename it as the Forum says there a file of the same name currently exists and wouldn`t let me upload ??
Regards
Rob
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Hi Hood
Sorry for the delay, got a bit busy ;D
See image attached of the ESS Plugin Config Dialog, as you can see the settings are "stuck" ;D
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Been a bit busy today but did get a chance to load it on the lathe that has the ESS on it and indeed the spindle options were set so looks like they only load if an ESS is present rather than just chosen when starting.
What are you using to control the spindle? I presume your drive is analogue input so you will be using a controller that converts step signals to a voltage. Reason I ask is the numbers in motor tuning seem a bit strange but that is most likely just because of the way the controller needs set up.
Hood
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Been a bit busy today but did get a chance to load it on the lathe that has the ESS on it and indeed the spindle options were set so looks like they only load if an ESS is present rather than just chosen when starting.
What are you using to control the spindle? I presume your drive is analogue input so you will be using a controller that converts step signals to a voltage. Reason I ask is the numbers in motor tuning seem a bit strange but that is most likely just because of the way the controller needs set up.
Hood
Spindle drive is Analog 0~10Volt input which is derived from a step/direction to Analog converter from CNC Doctor :-
http://www.cncdoctor.co.uk/b1-vsc-v1_64.html
The board works fine and many different spindle option settings will have the board outputting correctly, the numbers in the XML I posted are just what I was asked to try by Greg, they didn`t make any difference to what I already had, if you have any other numbers to try I will give them a shot ;D
The machine is set for 4000rpm Max on the Pulleys in Mach, inputting 2000rpm via G code, MDI or simply typing it into the speed dialog in Mach will produce 5 Volts from the board, similarly 3000rpm input will produce 7.5 Volts, any speed input does produce the correct voltage at the output of the converter, the DC Drive unit has been fine tuned to give the correct actual rpm at the spindle relative to the 0~10 Volts input to the drive.
It all works fine except for the dropping out into "E Stop Condition" above 2200rpm ;D ;D
Regards
Rob
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Ok if the spindle speed is as requested then thats fine. I always did things a different way to the way Greg said but I think the end results were the same. Talking about this has jogged my memory ::)
Step/Dir spindle control from the SS and ESS has never been perfect and Greg always said he would have a look but sadly never did as obviously there were other things that affected more people that he worked on instead. Anyway what that brought to mind was I had similar issues in some plugins and went back to 10a plugin. What would happen is the spindle would be running fine but if there was a heavy load on it all of a sudden it would E-Stop, so kind of sounds like it may be a similar thing to your problem. Maybe try the 10a plugin and see if it helps.
Hood
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Ok if the spindle speed is as requested then thats fine. I always did things a different way to the way Greg said but I think the end results were the same. Talking about this has jogged my memory ::)
Step/Dir spindle control from the SS and ESS has never been perfect and Greg always said he would have a look but sadly never did as obviously there were other things that affected more people that he worked on instead. Anyway what that brought to mind was I had similar issues in some plugins and went back to 10a plugin. What would happen is the spindle would be running fine but if there was a heavy load on it all of a sudden it would E-Stop, so kind of sounds like it may be a similar thing to your problem. Maybe try the 10a plugin and see if it helps.
Hood
Hi Hood
Hmmm, what you say would make sense of what is happening, and FYI I did try the 10a plugin and that didn`t help, there are a couple more plugins between the 10a and the one I am using, maybe I`ll try those as well ;D
Based on your thoughts it may be that the higher the spindle runs the more it would sort of emulate a higher load, I`ve only been cutting light on Aluminium castings with small 3mm end mills so very low loads being generated ;D
If it can`t be fixed then I`ll have to look at using a different motion card for the Mill, I have a small Lathe that would be fine at those rpms so the ESS might be OK for that if I were to look at doing a Mach3 conversion on it, I do have a Galil motion card and I/O unit that I bought for a different project so may go along that road when I have done the current workload ;D ;D
All very interesting stuff for sure, steep learining curve though ;D ;D ;D
You got any reccommendations for motion cards ? ? ?
Regards
Rob
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Well its maybe not the same issue, especially if 10A still has it happen but who knows. I also get the pulses stop every now and then just for an instant, that has been going on for a long time and is also present with the USB SS and the other issue is if using spindle override and its sitting steady at a speed all of a sudden I will hear a loud clunk and then it will be ok, again what that is, is the pulses being dropped for a split second.
I have used the CSMIO/IP-S and the CSMIO/IP-A on the last two retrofits I have done and I am really liking them, especially the A, it is however analogue only so unless your axes have analogue capable servo drives then its not an option but the S or even the smaller brother the M both output Step/dir signals.
Wouldnt give up on the ESS yet though, might be worth waiting to see if Greg can come up with anything
Hood
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Well its maybe not the same issue, especially if 10A still has it happen but who knows. I also get the pulses stop every now and then just for an instant, that has been going on for a long time and is also present with the USB SS and the other issue is if using spindle override and its sitting steady at a speed all of a sudden I will hear a loud clunk and then it will be ok, again what that is, is the pulses being dropped for a split second.
I have used the CSMIO/IP-S and the CSMIO/IP-A on the last two retrofits I have done and I am really liking them, especially the A, it is however analogue only so unless your axes have analogue capable servo drives then its not an option but the S or even the smaller brother the M both output Step/dir signals.
Wouldnt give up on the ESS yet though, might be worth waiting to see if Greg can come up with anything
Hood
Hi Hood
Not about to give up on the ESS by a long way ;D , I do like the card and apart from this spindle issue and not seeing any tool info when running a program (Probably another setting I haven`t done) it runs well and was initially quite easy to set up ;D
Looked at the units you mentioned and they look OK, the small "M" one does appear to be the handiest for the small stepper motor driven machines I have, might try one sometime if/when finances permit, thanks for the info.
Regards
Rob
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Ha ha they are more than "OK" to me, they are basically what I dreamed of in a controller had wanted Greg to produce :)
Hood