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General CNC Chat => Show"N"Tell ( Your Machines) => Topic started by: Telco on January 30, 2013, 12:34:58 PM

Title: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on January 30, 2013, 12:34:58 PM
Hello all, we are converting a 1981 south bend fourteen , using the mach3 lathe kit, 750oz teco servo motors. This machine Is in good condition,  we painted it right after we bought it, and have been running it on a regular basis..as far as the conversion, we have the servos mounted On aluminum plates , and will drive the lead screw and crosslide with timing belts. the lathe has a vari- drive, but speed will be controlled by  a 3HP Mitsubishi VFD .it should be here tomorrow, and I think all we will will lack are limit switches and a box for the motion control and drivers. After this is done, the lathe will get flood coolant, and a custom aluminum enclosure .I'll post more current pics asap. The front drive will eventually be moved to the back of machine, for now faster is better.All input and advice is greatly appreciated.
I'll update pics soon
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on January 31, 2013, 01:23:34 AM
(http://)
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: DICKEYBIRD on January 31, 2013, 10:46:54 AM
Nice!  Looks like a solid piece of iron to work with.  That long slide'll be nice if you go for gang tooling.  Keep the posts & pics coming!

I like the custom infinitely-adjustable handle on the front. ;D
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: GRAYHIL on January 31, 2013, 01:25:35 PM
I converted a Colchester Master and the thing that made the most differance on power/torque/accuracy was the fitting of ball screws instead of leadscrews and nuts.
Graham
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on February 01, 2013, 01:59:26 AM
Thanks Dickie, It is a good running machine. We have made much progress in last few days, I will post pics tomorrow.  Ball screws will be one of the next things to be replaced, but its going to have to wait  a few weeks. The variable speed reeves drive that came on this machine is only in the way now, im thinking it should be completely removed. Any Thoughts on this guys?  The handle has been there since the first time i ran this machine, and is quite reliable...
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: jeep534 on February 03, 2013, 09:47:48 AM
I have a SB 14 as well and have contemplated doing just this.  did some work on the vari drive (mine did not work) what I did was lock the discs in one place with a plastic spacer. which keeps the gearbox in place and allows you to tweak the speed by machining a new spacer I suspect that what I have is going to be fine. I have ran it on low and high but have not purchased a vfd as of yet. I will be watching this with much interest. let me know if you need more information on the vari drive I have pictures. also i am the list owner of the SB14 yahoo group.

archie =) =) =)
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on February 26, 2013, 03:03:19 PM
Everything is coming along.  i had been having problems getting the computer configured properly, and with a little tech support i found out i cooked somthing in the motion controller. :o.machmotion has been great, and ive sent the controller to them to be repaired. Should have it back aroud the end of the week. mechanically everything looks as if its going to work out fine. Going by the rule of tuning the motors to "sound good" , 80 IPM is the upper limit of how fast the carridge wil travel. Before i sent the motion controller to machmotion, i had both axis accurate to .001, maybe better...I removed the vari drive completely, and used the origional pullies locked in place to maintain the hi/lo range in the gearbox. This thing runs much smoother and quieter with the gears for the lead screw bypassed and the VFD contolling the spindle. Ill make a video when i get the controller back and working..This has been one heck of a project. i really had no idea what i was getting into, and mach3 is a bit more complex thn i anticipated, but when all is done i think this is going to work out well.

cant get pics to post...ill try again later
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: jeep534 on February 26, 2013, 08:05:46 PM
pictures may be too large. there is a size limit I have forgotten what it is but i think the last ones I posted were at the upper limit.
This all sounds awsum I cannot wait for the photo's


archie =) =) =)
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on March 14, 2013, 02:23:48 PM
Im in deep here fellas, i have not had this thing to run correctly yet. The mechanical is all fine, but the computer has been nothing but problems from the beginning. I understood this was going to be a steep learning curve, but somthing is not right. if i follow the instructions sent by mach motion, it wont run. they are sick of me calling im sure. I have a nearly 10,000 $ pile of computer that is useless after two months of troubleshooting. Im no cpu genius, but ive studied more than enough and havent made a part yet. The problem with the the motion controller i was told was blown motion control chips, and that they have never seen that before...??? Was it my fault ??? it was my cost...  i set everything up according to their instructions from day 1, and with the tech support troubleshooting  once ththey found the blown motion control chips, i thought i would be in the clear.... so here i am, troubleshooting again all day today...basically i feel as soon as purchase was made i was patted on back as i was pushed out the door.... ??? somthing has to give..
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: DICKEYBIRD on March 14, 2013, 02:37:41 PM
I'm definitely no expert and haven't slept in a Holiday Inn Express but I'll bet'cha if you can describe what's going on (or not going on) succinctly, you will get it working with the help of the great guys here.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: jeep534 on March 14, 2013, 03:31:10 PM
OK Ill bite. first what system did you purchase.  Does  it have separate drives for each axis and a breakout board. did it come as a complete unit or did you supply the computer ect...
were the motion control chips in the drives ??????
archie =) =) =)
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on March 14, 2013, 05:37:41 PM
Thanks for the replies guys, i just decided i would make more progress reading than tlooking for problems i do not know the answers to..i purchased their medium lathe conversion kit, it came as complete unit..i knew that in the long run i could have probably have put one together myself for cheaper, but needed to be running asap...hindsight 20/20..it came with a computer and mount, HiCON motion controller (they call it the apollo3) , Teco 750 watt servos & teco servo drives. this is my first cnc setup. the motion control chips are in the Hicon..if i were to go through and set up ports & pins etc. up as specified in the manual , the relay & contactor wouldnt activate. everything is wired up EXACTLY as specified in the diagrams sent with the cpu.  I have been through everything the last few days and have got to the point where everything works, but when i try to home/set home i get an error..im going to re-read and take notes from the manual again to see what i can get. one thing that would help me now is if someone can tell me how to get a backup re installed....i did it a few days ago ,but with everything ive read in the past few weeks it escapes me now. thank you to any and everyone who replies, i desprately need help, and aside from the initial cost ive ive lost more money than you would believe from the extended time being down.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: jeep534 on March 15, 2013, 10:05:28 AM
i am not sure if this will help
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,17023.0.html
as far as computer help if you post those in the general section it will get more eyeballs  LOL.

Good luck
archie =) =) =)
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: mrprecise44 on March 16, 2013, 05:29:21 PM
Hi Telco:
You might try posting in the HiCON section. Your post regarding this controller is only the second one I have seen in the forum, the other one being by Mike in the HiCON section. One possible cause of computer/board communication could be the Ethernet cable. On my dspmc controller, the other board made by Vital Systems, before they produced the HiCON, the cable must be a "Crossover" type, versus the standard 1:1 correspondence.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: MachMotion on March 22, 2013, 01:10:50 PM
Hello Telco,

Matt here with MachMotion.  I hate to hear you are having trouble with our control system.  Please call us and we will help you with any problems you are experiencing.  We pride ourselves on second to none support. 
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 11, 2013, 03:49:45 AM
Hi guys , thank you all for the replies. I have made good progress since last post, but do have a few hiccups to work out. And before I say anything else I do want to thank mach motion, all in all they have been a huge help, and the tech support has been great. The problems I've had are more related to mach3 than anything machmotion has done.  The thing is , I don't want to just get things working, I would like to understand why and how,  so i  can troubleshoot any problems myself. When I thread using the wizard , or with the G32 coded line by line, the pitch of the threads is off. It will cut uniform good threads , but if I command a 24 tpi (.04167) I get around a 20 tpi..have tried numerous spindle speeds, always same result. The steps per rev is correct. The encoder on my spindle gives 1000 pulses per rev, is a 1:1 ratio, and maintains stable speed when threading indicator is lit. If I set to thread at a certain rpm, and the true speed is different, should I plug this number in for the speed? I've read the thread titled G76 threading issues, and experienced the same issue of the very slow movement at the end of a pass,  and added G95 to the initialization string, and it solved that problem. I occasionally get an error that farces the program to close, and i have seen a blue screen several times , but the computer recovered quickly. Also, when i open mach 3, i get one of 3 load screens that come up, a blue/ white mach3 , a red / grey  art soft, or a screen that says mach 3 professional etc etc, has some graphics, and appears to be the one i should get...oh yea, I also want a partridge & a pear tree!
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: jeep534 on April 11, 2013, 09:47:51 AM
do you have an encoder on the spindle
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 11, 2013, 10:53:20 AM
Yessir, the forward/ neutral/ reverse gearbox for the leadscrew turns at a 1:1 ratio with the spindle, and with the gears removed that would run the leadscrew i was left with the perfect location to mount said encoder. I've attached a pic, if it doesn't post I'll get one up in a few min.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 11, 2013, 11:03:31 AM
Here are some pics of where I'm at..
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 11, 2013, 11:04:40 AM
All clean..
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 11, 2013, 11:30:18 AM
For you  "fourteen" owners, The aluminium tool holder "shelf"  hanging on the front of the machine consists of the two pieces of aluminum flat bar that hang onto edge, two pieces of alum angle drilled and tapped  for the flat bar to attach to,   and the back of the aluminum plate rests against the side..I'm going to finish it out with 1"x 1/2" tube around the edge to perty it up a bit. It will lift off with all the tools on it and is plenty stiff as is, although the tube will make it rigid...No welder required. Has worked out great so far.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: jeep534 on April 11, 2013, 11:33:43 AM
I think you may end up putting a trigger directly on the spindle there is "play" in this desighn  "hood" on this message board could probably help with this problem you might send him a private message.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: jeep534 on April 11, 2013, 11:36:24 AM
For you  "fourteen" owners, The aluminium tool holder "shelf"  hanging on the front of the machine consists of the two pieces of aluminum flat bar that hang onto edge, two pieces of alum angle drilled and tapped  for the flat bar to attach to,   and the back of the aluminum plate rests against the side..I'm going to finish it out with 1"x 1/2" tube around the edge to perty it up a bit. It will lift off with all the tools on it and is plenty stiff as is, although the tube will make it rigid...No welder required. Has worked out great so far.
   actually the toolholders will hang on the front of the chip pan with no modifications   which is kind of funny we end up with tons of tool holders
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 11, 2013, 11:55:16 AM
The lower "apron" I suppose its called, is now dead weight.. only held o by a few bolts, from what i can tell its only job is an attachment point for the half nut..I have some 1" Alcoa plate ( 7075 ) , and was debating replacing the apron with this..and possibly adding another half nut or machining a bronze nut for minimizing backlash. Would this be a mistake?
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 11, 2013, 11:55:58 AM
Pic
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 11, 2013, 01:02:45 PM
 thank you very much jeep, I will message hood about this, but there is virtually no play in the system i can feel. The only detectable play is in the spindle itself, which I suspect is virtually the same as it was 20 yrs ago. the only wait to feel it is to turn the spindle back and forth and you can you feel a tiny amount of play. I just opened up the cover under the original electronic control to ensure the spindle bearings were being lubricated properly, and all the gears look good as new.  I'll take a video and post a link to it in a few minutes. this is what I need though.. there has to be something I've overlooked somewhere.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Hood on April 12, 2013, 02:42:41 PM
Looks like a nice project and always good to see another lathe using Mach :)
Regarding the encoder, I am not sure if that will work or not. I think the kit you bought uses the parallel port and unless the breakout board sretches the index pulse then it will almost certainle be too fast for the parallel port to see.
Hood
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: jeep534 on April 12, 2013, 04:28:52 PM
The lower "apron" I suppose its called, is now dead weight.. only held o by a few bolts, from what i can tell its only job is an attachment point for the half nut..I have some 1" Alcoa plate ( 7075 ) , and was debating replacing the apron with this..and possibly adding another half nut or machining a bronze nut for minimizing backlash. Would this be a mistake?
I would be looking here or similar
http://rockfordballscrew.com/
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 13, 2013, 01:57:41 AM
Thanks hood, the motion control and encoder both came from machmotion, so I assumed they would play nice together. But I have thought that this may be a problem..my biggest concern at this point is to get this thing threading properly. It cuts beautiful threads, but the pitch is larger than commanded. In a threading cycle, the true s dro will jump to 600 if it is command is 500, the higher the speed, the greater the jump..Im stumped on this one..thanks for the link jeep, i will be adding balls screws, just need to get the thing running right first...
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Hood on April 13, 2013, 05:44:38 AM
Ok the breakout you have must be widening the Index pulse of the encoder :)

The spindle not doing as commanded should not be a problem as far as threading is concerned as long as your feedback is reporting the RPM correctly. It sounds like it may not be however. The pitch being larger seems to confirm  this as what it sounds like is Mach is seeing the spindle faster than it actually is so is moving the Z axis at a speed to correspond to this faster RPM and thus if your spindle is actually rotating slower then your pitch will be larger.
 One thing that may be causing the RPM to read higher than actual is you may have a ratio set up in spindle pulleys, another is your encoder is not connected 1:1 to the spindle.
Hood
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: BR549 on April 13, 2013, 11:53:01 AM
Hood I believe the Hycon is a Motion control board not just a breakout board. It is feed with eithernet.  SO most of all motion is done from the board not mach ??

Just a thought, (;-) TP
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Hood on April 13, 2013, 12:05:55 PM
Ah OK Terry, I looked at Machmotions siye and downloaded the manual that it says is for the Teco kit and it said
"The Apollo I Breakout Board provides a flexible, plug-in-play interface for the Mach3 CNC software using
standard computer parallel ports. "
I see now, reading back, that Telco says it is the Apollo 3 he has. Looks like the site is a bit out of date or I am looking at the wrong product page.
Hood
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 13, 2013, 01:07:07 PM
Guys, I am very gracious for your time and insight. I am  pretty sure I have a 1:1 ratio on the encoder ..id bet a Franklin on it for what its worth. I don't want to waste your time asking questions I can answer by reading the manuals, but I've read it over time and time again..setting up this computer has been by far and above the most difficult part of this project for me no question.I believe you may be correct about the problem lying in the pulley settings..mach motion Tech help set up some of this stuff remotely, but I have been through almost all of it several times myself trying to get everything working properly.pulley settings are :  #1 50-300 rpm, #2 305-1800 .( I have a gearbox with high and low range). the place where you input the ratio is set at 1 for both. if you go into configure plugins and configuration for the hicon, there are some settings that I am unsure of.I'm about 2 minutes away from the shop and I am heading directly out there, will take some pictures of the screens showing the settings. will post picks up within 15 minutes or so.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: BR549 on April 13, 2013, 01:35:08 PM
You do realize that the Hicon config is NOT a part of the normal Mach3 setup. It is unique to the hicon motion controller. The people that sold you the Hicon setup are going to be your best shot at getting this straightened out.

Or the Manf of the hicon unit as THEY are the ones that wrote the HICON / Mach3 interface plugin.

Simple test for the 1:1 of the encoder. Watch the index LED as you slowly by hand turn the spindle. Make a mark to show when you have turned 360 deg on the spindle.

Rotate the spindle by hand until the led comes on. Mark the spindle as a reference. Slowly rotate the spindle and the LED should turn OFF keep rotating until the led comes back on . Do the marks line up again ?

(;-) TP
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on April 13, 2013, 04:29:46 PM
Hi BR, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I need to talk to the hicon guys..I have never seen the index light on...
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Hood on April 14, 2013, 05:28:34 AM
The fact that the Apollo is a motion controller changes the whole scenario, it will depend how the encoder is handled in it.
For example if they are using the full encoder signals and the index only for thread start timing then you will also have to tell the plugin what the encoder counts are, if you have them wrong then the rpm could be wrong. If it is using the Index only for RPM and threading start timing then there should be no setup required. Not sure if I can download the Hicon plugin and have a look but will see if I can.
Hood
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on May 26, 2013, 11:38:51 PM
Hello guys, i figured id give you all an update on the machine...The key to my understanding the proper setup was looking at the vital systems website,where i found a manual for the hicon. The machine has exceeded my expectations, and is running great.  I am still running the original leadscrews, and at the moment cannot justify changing to ballscrews. It threads wonderfully as is, and rapids at 40 IPM without any sense of being pushed too hard. I have a sump underneath the pan and a coolant system setup where the reeves drives was. Ive found i do not use the low range gear at all, so  ill try removing the gearbox, turning the motor around and running a belt directly from the motor to the spindle..It already runs much quieter and smoother than it did stock, and i imagine it will only get better without having to run the gearbox and big belt and pulleys that run between the motor/gearbox. Other than that, i think a tool turret or some type of auto tool changer would be the next improvement. Id love to hear you guys input on weather you think a hydraulic or pneumatic toolchanger would be a worthwile investment of time/money. Ive done a few searches but haven't seen much.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Hood on May 27, 2013, 02:00:48 PM
Sounds good :)
Regards a turret, it is definitely a good thing to have, makes a CNC lathe really useful as you can leave it to do its thing and only have to come back to change the parts rather than having to change tools.
I made a 12 position turret up for my big lathe to replace the two 6 position ones that were on it, you will see it here.
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,1234.msg142938.html#msg142938

Hood
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: donm319 on August 18, 2013, 12:44:32 PM
Hi;
Could not help noticing the threading dial on your machine. Will you be using it with your conversion? I would truly like to purchase it from you if you do not need it. Will pay top dollar. I bought a fourteen for my 16 year old son and the threading dial was missing.
Thanks for your consideration;
Donm319
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: Telco on August 29, 2013, 03:34:37 AM
I think that is great donm319, perfect machine to learn on, wish I had one when I was 16. The threading dial is a must manually...I have no idea what they are worth, if you still need it im sure we can figure something out. I Have a gearbox, reeves drive and a bunch of other stuff ive pulled off as well. ill check back tomorrow.
Title: Re: South Bend Fourteen Lathe conversion
Post by: donm319 on August 29, 2013, 08:02:19 PM
Hi;
I would be interested in any and all parts and attachments you are not going to use. I would like to have a better steady rest also. Could you give me some contact info.? My info. is donmc@mepotelco.net email,cell: 319-750-0841; home: 319-394-9224.
Thank you for your help;
Don