Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: jevs on January 27, 2013, 08:08:56 PM
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So, I lost interest in my CNC conversion awhile back because the computer kept crashing and when I finally got it working decent, it went to do an update and it killed it.
This computer has never been stable it seem like. Now I am tired of messing with it and want to just build a new computer, or update every part of this one. The problem is being stuck with Windows XP Home.
I don't want to try and piece together an old junker appropriate for XP and I also do not want to load a crappy 32 bit version of XP on a newer fast computer.
So, what do I do? I spent my whole day trying to get XP loaded on this computer from 2004 and had no luck, just one crash or error, or blue screen after another. I am not going to waste more time on it because even if I get it running, it will end up crashing again anyway.
I do have a couple brand new versions of Windows 8 sitting here that I could use on a new computer, but I am guessing that will leave me worse off than trying to get Mach3 to run on Windows 7 (which I have no unused copies of).
I basically want to upgrade this old computer with a new MB, CPU, Memory, Power Supply, and possibly a solid state drive. I just want a reliable and stable computer so I can actually get to using this CNC I have had for about a decade now instead of being aggravated by old junk computers.
I am using a Machmotion I/O board with two parallel ports from the computer connected to it at the moment. My understanding is that the only way I can keep this setup is to use a 32 bit version of Windows 7 (silly slower version that I would never put on a computer I built today).
The other option seems to be a motion controller of some sort and then connect that to my Machmotion I/O board??
And then can I use a proper 64 bit Windows 7 or Windows 8??
Need some advice here. I hate to have to add another board to my system, but I am also not going to deal with old junk computers any more. Looking for advice.
By the way my maching is a Pratt and Whitney Tapemate C that I gutted and redid all the electronics including motors. I am using Teco drives and motors from Machmotion.
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The speed of a 32 bit and 64 bit system depends on what you're running on it. We have CAD/CAM software on both and when it comes to high end 3D modeling and rendering, 64 bit is a little faster. For things that are not so processor intensive, there is hardly a difference, if any at all. I doubt you'd see any difference in Mach3 between the two. All it's doing is pulsing the PP and it doesn't need a super computer to do that. We have Mach3 running on an old 800MHZ PC with 1G ram and on a newer 2.8GHZ with 8G ram. Other than the newer PC possibly being a little faster oping files, there is no difference as far as Mach3 is concerned.
Google industrial PC's. You can buy a brick PC with Win7 32 bit installed for around $400.
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The speed of a 32 bit and 64 bit system depends on what you're running on it. We have CAD/CAM software on both and when it comes to high end 3D modeling and rendering, 64 bit is a little faster. For things that are not so processor intensive, there is hardly a difference, if any at all. I doubt you'd see any difference in Mach3 between the two. All it's doing is pulsing the PP and it doesn't need a super computer to do that. We have Mach3 running on an old 800MHZ PC with 1G ram and on a newer 2.8GHZ with 8G ram. Other than the newer PC possibly being a little faster oping files, there is no difference as far as Mach3 is concerned.
Google industrial PC's. You can buy a brick PC with Win7 32 bit installed that would fit right inside your control cabinet for around $400.
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I know Mach 3 wont run any faster and I know an old junker will run it, but I am tired of dealing with problems of old hardware, no longer supported drivers, etc.
I hate to pay $100 for a 32 bit version of Windows 7 too :(
I want to use the case I have, as it is already integrated into the machine.
So is the consensus that the best thing to do if you want to use a new or newer computer is to use Windows 7 32 bit? Or is it worth it to just get a motion controller that should work with anything and no longer be constrained by having to use old operating systems?
My understanding is that a motion controller would be better and more stable than the computer directly running things anyway?
I also would like the benefit of faster boot ups and faster operation of other things (besides the actual running of Mach3).
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So is the consensus that the best thing to do if you want to use a new or newer computer is to use Windows 7 32 bit?
If you want to keep using the PP, that's your only option.
My understanding is that a motion controller would be better and more stable than the computer directly running things anyway?
That depends on the motion controller. We're experimenting with the Ethernet smoothstepper now, but didn't have much luck with the USB version. Just keep in mind that when you use an external motion controller, it's software handles most of the things that Mach3 does for you now...and not everything Mach3 does may be supported by the external motion controller.
I also would like the benefit of faster boot ups and faster operation of other things (besides the actual running of Mach3).
Of the 6 PC's we have running here on a daily basis, the one that boots the fastest (under 30 seconds) is the 2.8GHZ machine running Mach3 in the shop. Part of that could be the disk image we burn on the machine PC's. It's a stripped down, lean and mean version of XP. All that's there is what it needs to run Windows and Mach3.
every machine we have that runs Win7, which is most of them, take 5 minutes or longer to boot. The exception is an industrial PC that we put Win7 (32) Embedded on. It is lighting fast.
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Will Windows 7 32 Bit run as good or better than XP? Or, is there still a good reason to stick with XP?
There is a chance just switching to Win 7 with no hardware upgrades might work on my computer. It will have newer drivers and stuff on the disc to recognize my hardware so maybe workarounds to get it to load the first time would not be necessary. The computer is not that bad. It is one of the faster P4's, 1 Gig RAM, AGP 256MB Geforce Video Card, 400Gig HD, Wireless network card, and of course the extra Parallel ports card.
Maybe I should just pay up and get the Win 7 32 bit and try to load it? If it loads at least then I can run some diagnostics to test the memory, hard drive, etc. and pin point a problem (if there still is one). Right now I cannot even get Win XP to fully load. It seams like it is giving a BSOD when it starts loading the drivers for stuff. Maybe Win 7 would load everything and at least get it bootable.
I like Windows 7 much better than XP. Some of the little things like the snipping tool come in so handy. Windows 8 does nothing for me (always just use the regular desktop screen), but it does run faster and boot faster.
I just hesitate on the 32 bit version, because that is all you get. If this limitation ever goes away, then you will be buying a new OS to get 64 bit.
As far as boot time Windows 8 kills everything :) especially on SSD drive. It's fast! In reality as far as bloat crap, Win 8 is the best. It's just that all that new "metro" screen crap stinks and just makes you click more stuff to do anything. Slide to bottom right, click settings, click power, click shut down...just to power off = annoying.
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XP is the prefered OS for Mach3. You can still buy a new computer and load your version of XP on it. Then you have new hardware.
OR go to Tormach and buy a brand new computer with an embedded version of XP already installed.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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I have two Windows 8 Pro upgrades sitting here still in the shrink wrap. The good thing about these is they come with a 32 bit and a 64 bit system on separate discs.
The only problem is, I may have to have a working OS already on the computer to install it and XP will not install. The sucky thing is, this all happened when a Windows update was being done.
Anyone tried this on Windows 8 Pro 32 bit?
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SO you are tired of all the problems with the old stuff BUT want to jump right into the fire with a version not proven to run mach3 correctly???
Have you tried reloading the XP you have as a clean install Reformatting the drive??
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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SO you are tired of all the problems with the old stuff BUT want to jump right into the fire with a version not proven to run mach3 correctly???
Have you tried reloading the XP you have as a clean install Reformatting the drive??
Just a thought, (;-) TP
No, hence the part where I am asking questions first ;) Ultimately I just want to stop wasting my valuable time and get the machine to cut something. Right now it is dead in the water because of the PC. Windows XP will not load period. I am going to have to update something and with that comes questions of updating the OS. I would never use XP on any computer again, except Mach 3 is a problem...
I deleted the partition and reformatted a new one. Win XP will not load. I can get it past the input of the CD key and the time/date/time zone stuff, and after that I get a BSOD. I had a lot of errors to battle just getting it that far, but had no success with the BSOD every time I try. The only thing I can try next is taking out hardware until I find a way that it lets it load without a BSOD or other error. Or, I can try a different OS....
Right now I think some piece of hardware is not liking drivers or something as it is installing. But this is just an educated guess based on where it is stopping during the install.
This is Windows XP Home Premium. Unfortunately, this is all I have available except Windows 8. So I will have to buy something to try anything else.
So if I have to buy a new OS I guess Win 7 32 bit is the way to go? I was only asking about Win 8 because I have it now at $0 dollars to spend and it has 32 bit.....not saying It is a good idea, just asking...
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We have an industrial PC here with parallel port running Win7 Embedded 32 bit and so far it's working well. It still needs more testing before it hits the shop floor, but it looks good.
We have a local shop that refurbishes Dell PC's. I can get a 2.8MHZ tower with a fresh install of XP Pro for $80. There may be something similar in your area. Something like that will run Mach3 just fine.
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How much are those?
What is the advantage of having it embedded over just using a solid state drive so you can change it later if needed?
I can basically replace all the guts of this case for $500 or less and have a pretty fast computer with SSD etc. Most of the ones people sell for CNC seem to cost a couple thousand plus??
Will Mach 4 Hobby have these same OS constraints? Hate to gimp the computer if it won't be an issue in the future. I have not bought the full version of Mach 3 yet, because I have not been able to cut a part yet to need more lines of code. By then maybe Mach 4 will be out?
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Embedded is just a stripped down version of Win7 designed to be used in machinery applications. It has all of the core functionality without any of the garbage that comes on the typical store bought PC. It's usually faster because there is not as much going on. You won't find a desktop PC in an industrial CNC application. That's where the small industrial PC's come into play. If you open up a ProMotion or Burny controller, you'll find a small brick PC inside, probably running Win7.
Prices on industrial PC's can range from $400 to just over $1000. Depends on what you want with it. The cheap ones work fine. Tons of ram and huge hard drives are not necessary. We've been running them for years with XP. Just now started experimenting with Win7. I really don't see any difference between XP and Win7 as far as Mach is concerned. The main reason for going to Win7 is so we can offer the "latest" OS. I don't think we're going to mess with Win8.
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Makes sense, but sounds like it is getting a little too proprietary for me. I like to be able to upgrade, swap parts, upgrade or change OS, etc. without buying from one source.
It also sounds like these may not be available now? I want to get this going ASAP. I sold my little mill, so if I need to mill something, this is all I have. I want to start building my router and possibly a 3D printer soon, and need to get past this and learn how to use it properly.
Based on what I have read so far, I think my cheapest course of action is to just find a Win 7 32 bit disc as cheep as I can. Install it and see if I can get a bootable computer. If so then run it a bit and see if it has issues still. If not, then I am done. If it still acts up I can at least do some diagnostics to narrow it down. If it will not load even with Win 7, then at least I have a new OS for when I change components in the PC. Since nothing is going to work above 32 bit, I guess that is all I can do since Win 8 seems to not be an option (or at least no one has said they have tried it).
So, tomorrow my mission will be to find Win 7 32 Bit as cheep as possible and go from there.
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Looking around and is even more discouraging. I am going to spend more getting this computer to run than just buying a new computer :(
I can find a new computer for under $300 (non-proprietary) with Windows 7, but they all have the 64 bit version :( I guess I could ask them for one with 32 bit on it.
Will the 32 bit even work right on a 64 bit machine?
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You can run a 32 OS bit on a 64 bit CPU.
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You might want to try wiping the old hard drive and then installing. I am a Systems Administrator and also have a degree in Computer Forensics. Computer Forensics relies heavily on file structures and how the operating systems works with files. I have had a few instances of re-installing Windows XP over a copy that had issues and at times have ran into problems. After wiping the hard drive using DBAN (Dariks Boot and Nuke) or Active Killdisk, XP installed perfectly. My 'educated' guess tells me that when re-installing an OS, some of the old files are re-used and not write new ones over them. Wiping a drive will write all 0's to the drive, basically resetting it to unused condition.
Can't say for sure that it will fix your problem but worth a try. FWIW - XP is arguably the most reliable operating system Microsoft has produced. Windows 7 has been very good also.
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Hmm, I deleted the partition more than once and even selected the slow formatting version when creating the new partition (not the quick format one). How could it not have wiped it enough that it would still be using old files? I am doubting all that extra work will do anything for me.....you still think so based on this?
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Formatting and deleting partitions is not the same as wiping a drive. Re-formatting a drive does not delete the old files, only the pointers that show where the files are. Think of it as a book. The Master File Table is the index of the book. When you delete a file it only erases the 'index' entry and lists it as being available to write to, but the page of the book is still there and still has all of the data. This is where computer forensics comes in :o. Formatting a drive only re-writes the Master File Table and readies it for use.
Wiping a hard drive has fixed installation issues about 3 or 4 times now for me. The two software solutions I mentioned (Active Killdisk and DBAN) are both free downloads. You will have to burn them to a CD and boot to the CD and follow the prompts. I have only used DBAN a few times but have used Active Killdisk probably over 100 times. When conducting a forensic examination we must forensically wipe our destination drive prior to loading our evidentiary image to it. Formatting doesn't cut it.
Headed to bed now but let me know if you have any questions and I will try to answer them in the morning.
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Makes sense, but sounds like it is getting a little too proprietary for me. I like to be able to upgrade, swap parts, upgrade or change OS, etc. without buying from one source.
If you like to tinker with the guts of the PC, the industrial route isn't for you. They are small and designed to be embedded inside a machine controller. Most of the cheaper ones run the Atom processor and are a fanless design. The fanless design means that there are no cooling fans circulating shop dust through the PC.
You probably won't find 32 bit off the shelf. When we order the industrial PC's we can choose between XP, Win7 or Win8...32 or 64 bit.
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Well, I bought all the parts to build a new computer......
So, I wanted to go ahead and get this old one fixed so I could sell it. It turns out I found a bad memory stick. I used memtest and it crapped out right away. So I pulled a stick, ran the full test and it was fine. I then swapped the other stick in and it failed right away.
Down to 512k of memory, but windows xp is back up and running. Working on getting all the updates now....
I wonder if this memory stick has been intermittent causing me headaches for years. I actually went through all the memory tests once before and had no errors.
This could be a good Mach3 computer now....for someone that wants a decent old old XP computer.
Its a P4 3.06 Ghz, 256MB Geforce 6800, 400Gig HD, EMSI MB...just needs more memory now.
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Cool. Glsd you figured it out.
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I have been reading the threads and plain and simple Mach3 will NOT run in 64bit OS. The driver was written to use either APIC timer or take over interrupts in the uP in which case the architecture differs greatly in a 64 bit system. I heard someone mention the bricks or embedded systems which we use on a regular basis. I buy a nice little micro ITX MOBO(D5255MW Atom) and integrate it into the controller. The drivers, BOB and PC all live in a suitcase sized box and Mach 3 runs on a 32 bit version of W7. The Atom MOBO is less than $100 and I use a small 64G SSD with it. Boots in less than 30 sec and is entirely dedicated to Mach3 and SheetCAM in case people want to edit tool paths. I had a friend put together an install package for W7 the disables useless bloat services in the install. It is increasingly difficult to find nice boards w/ parallel ports but this one seems to be fast, cheap and reliable.
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cheeta,
Mach itself will not be a problem on a 64bit OS, where the problem is if you want to use a parallel port for your control, then you need a 32bit OS.
Hood
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Hood,
You are correct. I have successfully run on 64bit OS in simulator mode and not installing the driver. I do that when writing code or building screen sets. I have even experimented with VMware and Virtual Box and had no luck with trying to use the parallel port. I finally stopped trying to update everything and came to the conclusion that many people are tossing perfectly good XP desktops in their efforts to upgrade and with a little work, they run perfectly with Mach3. I have a never ending stream of old desktops that I can "convert" to controllers :). I have found that even old laptops with a P3 and W2K are sufficient in some apps. I keep telling my youngsters that old isn't necessarily trash...just depends on what the job is.
Cheeta
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I use atoms a pico mobos in my machines but I dont use the parallel port on any. I still however prefer XP to any of the newer OS's but suppose one day I may have to upgrade when drivers for new mobos are not available for XP, hopefully that will be quite a few years away.
Hood
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I like this thread,
I'm interested in 'industrial' computer and/or 'embedded' OS.
Can anyone tell me where I might find info to start some research?
Microsft say find a partner which I take to mean 'have someone else build your OS' and probably pay thru the nose for it!
Rather defeats the purpose of do-it-yourself CNC building.
Is there some list or similar which outlines those OS components that Mach3 requires and would it be feasible for me to construct my own
embedded OS, I'm reasonably geeky and as patient as a rock when it suits me.