Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: BR549 on January 01, 2013, 06:45:59 PM
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HOW about when a USERS requests help on a issue that they STATE what setup and equipment they have UP FRONT on the first post.
many times I see a 20 questions game JUST to find out what the user has as far as equipment. IF you have a Cancnc plasma system say so, If you have a USB Smooth stepper say so.
Post your XML as well . It saves having someone to ASK for it
It would SAVE so much time and effort.
Thanks and HAPPY NEWYEAR to all , (;-) TP
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Would be good but unlikely ;D
A lot of new people dont even know what they have as they have bought, a supposedly, ready to run machine.
Hood
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Man oh man have i thought about the same thing Terry.
Even considered providing a check list of info to provide, but as Hood said, some don't have a clue.
What kills me is that i have to spend time hunting down info just to find what they have.
I surely would like to hear suggestions on the matter.
Hey Hey.....for each time Hood asks for an xml file I put a penny in the jar towards his retirement. For each time one is not posted or it's asked where to find it i remove a penny. So far he will need to work till year 3013. :D
RICH
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BUT if you don't start training poeple as to what you need you will always be asking the 20 questions. When people start working WITH you other new people will get the idea and fall in line.
A NICE BIG sticky list of help requirements lets them KNOW what it expected and IF you point them to the list and they don't respond good luck to ya. Better for them to hunt and scratch than you to pull out your hair. (;-) FORCE the OEMs to do more on their part instead of sending them to the Machsite.
IF you do not get a grip on it NOW think what it will be like when Mach4 hits the street (;-)
I would hope that MACH4 gets a NEW totally seperate website .
Just a thought, (;-)
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Maybe a short sticky form at the top where they can fill in the blanks then Copy and paste into their request ????
SHort and sweet, (;-) TP
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Hey Hey.....for each time Hood asks for an xml file I put a penny in the jar towards his retirement. For each time one is not posted or it's asked where to find it i remove a penny. So far he will need to work till year 3013.
Nice one Rich ;D ;D ;D
Tweakie.
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Geez, Terry! What are you going to suggest next? People should RTFM?? :-)
Regards,
Ray L.
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I really don’t think that ‘RTFM’ is a reasonable response to questions asked on this forum.
Yes, they should do that but it is not their fault if they are unable to fully understand the terminology used, after all, many new members are starting at ground zero - they are here and using this forum because they wish to learn.
Anything that can make the task of helping others easier, quicker or more effective has to be good.
Just my opinion. :)
Tweakie.
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I can remember what I was like when I started out, made a lot of mistakes which cost me money. The guy that sold me the hardware said he would help me out until I had it running, once he had my money he wasnt so keen ::) Thankfully Art gave me some help but John Prentice spent a lot of time helping me out, so I have them to thank, especially John and I am really grateful he put up with my stupid questions.
I do see where you are coming from Terry and it definitely would be a good thing to happen but I just cant see it really working as sweetly as you envision unfounately.
Having said that it does annoy me when I ask for info or xml or whatever and it seems like the person I am trying to help deliberately does not want to comply. There can be several reasons for that, one is they dont really understand what I am asking for. In that case I just wish they would say so and it could then be explained a bit better, we are all guilty of speaking in the CNC lingo and forget that a few years back we would also have not had a clue what was being asked.
There are others however that seem to have an attitude and that they know best and why should they supply info requested, after all they are only here to ask for help not supply us with help to help them ::).
Then there are others who think we are mind readers ;)
Yes the more info provided can help but too much makes me skim through whats been written and probably miss some pertinent info.
If it would be possible to do as you say, a list of hardware, short or concise and supply the xml, then yes that would be great but as mentioned for someone new to this that in itself will be a major task.
No harm in trying to get it that way though so I suppose we can only wait and see what the new year brings.
Hood
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I understand exactly the newbie syndrome. BUT the way to be an expert is first RTFM and then supply what info you have so at least we know you are using mach3 (;-). That is not too much to ask.
(;-) TP
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I guess I like the old saying " GIVE a man a fish and you have feed him for the day . TEACH a man to fish and he can feed himself for life"
Most times PART of teach is FORCING them to engage their brain.
(;-) TP
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Even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!
Tweakie.
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Sometimes, it seems to boil down to just plain laziness. I'm constantly amazed that people will go to all the trouble to make a post, and ask others to provide information that could be had by a 2-second Google search. About once a week I see someone make a post like "Where is the website for XYZ?", when simply Googling "XYZ" will bring it up as the very first hit.
Then there are the guys that make a post asking a question, when they've already made up their minds what they're going to do, and seem to be just looking for like-minded souls. If you point out the flaws in their thinking, or recommend a clearly more "correct", or even simpler/cheaper way of doing it, they throw up a smoke-screen justifying why they're stocking to their clearly flawed approach.
I remember when I first came across this, when I was in high school. I worked after school at a hardware store, and we'd get people coming in all the time saying basically "I don't know anything about XYZ. Can you tell me how to do this?". I'd explain to them the right way to do it, and they'd listen, then say "No, you're wrong.", and walk away! Of course, as often as not, they'd be back the next week, to ask for help in undoing the mess they'd made by doing it their own way. Or, they'd blame it on defective parts, despite the obvious evidence the part had been majorly abused in installation....
Regards,
Ray L.
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That is about the same as them asking for advice on BOBs and Drives. You give them you best lecture on quality KNOWING they have already made up their mind on getting the lowest cost chinese stuff on ebay regaurdless of the warnings on if it works or not. Most times they have already ordered it
I don't even go there much anymore as I already know most times it is as Rays says they have already made up their minds and are just looking for like souls.
(;-) TP
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Would be nice though IF all the docs were on ONE page. even I don';t know where they ALL hide.
(;-) TP
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I think some of the problem with RTFM is they aren't even right/updated with each updated version.
In regards to documentation, lets hope it's kept updated with Mach 3-V4?
Dave
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Manuals are a real challenge. The usual problem is one must read the whole manual to get the big picture and then go back
and bisect it to get specifics. Then if one is looking for understanding, each little part becomes a topic by itself, and, don't forget the practical application of the information. Good grief should you get real techie about something.
If I combined all my reference manuals and info, which are in binders, it would easily be 6 linear feet on a shelf.
For the LazyTurn manual I had over 500 pages of text to be rewritten and put into some sort of context.
In nut shell, it's very difficult to do a manual that will satisfy every question or need.
What more can one say.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Below is a list one could use to make ia generic fill in the blank paragraph which could be posted.
COMPUTER:
- LAPTOP - TOWER - OTHER
- ON BOARD GRAPHICS
- OPERATING SYSTEM - XP, VISTA, W7, W8
- USING PP OF EXTERNAL MOTION DEVICE- SS, OTHER
- DEDICATED OR MUTI USE
CONTROLLING PROGRAM:
- MACH3- LINCENSE, UNLICENSED / DEMO, PIRATED COPY ( WHAT THE HECK MAY AS WELL ASK!)
- POST XML
- STANDARD OR CUSTOM SCREEN SET
- MACHINE TYPE- MILL, ROUTER, LATHE, PLASMA, OTHER
EXTERNAL DEVICES:
- SS, OTHER
- BREAKOUT BOARD
- VFD
- INDEX BOARD
- PENDANT, X BOX360, OTHER
CONTROLLER:
- DRIVE MANUFACTURER AND MODEL
- POWER SUPPLY
- NUMBER OF AXES
MACHINE SPECIFICS FOR THE FOLLOWING:
- MILL
- LATHE
Feel free to build on the above .........,
RICH
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The main idea about manuals to to present all the facts. It is up to the reader to educate himself up to the point he understands the Words then learns the technology. MOST people today through LACK of proper education do not know how to learn. They were just taught the answers to the questions in order to get out of school.
As a tech writer you are responsible for the reasonable content up to a point . THEN it is UP to the reader to follow through with the learning process. IF they do not understand a word then THEY should look it up and LEARN what it means.
As long as teachers do not teach students to LEARN and then if needed FORCE them into the process then We will continue the long sloped slide to the bottom of the educated heap.
MOST can learn but MOST do not want to waste THEIR time when they can find someone to do it for them.
(;-) TP
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MOST can learn but MOST do not want to waste THEIR time when they can find someone to do it for them.
Ahh.....That's why they are the managers and we now work for them ??? ;D ;D ;D
RICH
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The main idea about manuals to to present all the facts.
EXACTLY! Therein lies the issue. If you're reading what you believe are facts in the manual, and then go ask a forum some questions based on (what SHOULD be) facts, and then are told:" that manual hasn't been right for years", it then get's a little frustrating to learn that all you studied won't even apply..... No wonder some are frustrated ;)
Dave
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In some parts of the MANUAL it was wrong from DAY one.
(;-) TP
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The main idea about manuals to to present all the facts.
EXACTLY! Therein lies the issue. If you're reading what you believe are facts in the manual, and then go ask a forum some questions based on (what SHOULD be) facts, and then are told:" that manual hasn't been right for years", it then get's a little frustrating to learn that all you studied won't even apply..... No wonder some are frustrated ;)
Dave
BINGO Dave ! It's quite dis heartining to search and read all you can, only to eventually yield to posting only to find out that you've wasted hours ... if not more . Been there and done that several times. One popular response is "What V are you using ... OH, it wont work in that one". I'll admit, I still dig, but not as deeply as I used to.
Thanks Dave, good response.
Russ :)
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So the question one may ask...
Just what is incorrect or not current and have that summary posted along with the manual.
Also a link addressing the issue would be helpfull.
Is the above worth the effort?
RICH
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So the question one may ask...
Just what is incorrect or not current and have that summary posted along with the manual.
Also a link addressing the issue would be helpfull.
Is the above worth the effort?
RICH
Good question, Rich, I think the only way to do that now is to start making notes starting now. Unfortunately I'm not sure the effort would be worth it with the new version coming out.
Now a person could have there own manual and make corrections in it (according to their own needs) but that obviously wouldn't be universal for everyone. Not only that, but as that same persons needs change, such as changing versions, their own manual has now become "wrong" and will need updated once again.
It's a nightmare, lol!
Dave
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Probably not to you or I BUT for the newbie it could be the difference Between success in getting the machine ONLINE or junking it out.
The Magazine people and OEMs try to make it all out as Plug and Play. AND with some setups and controller it can be BUT with Mach3 it is FAR to Flexable and open to be be so. AND yes that can be a BAD thing
Other controllers have gone to great depth to make sure their manuals are correct and up to date . Where Artsoft and OEMs still depend on the original manual as reference.
So it really depends on the volunteers here and IF they want to put forth the effort to fix it OR just lets it ride. I hope that the new Mach3V4 will have its OWN website to keep the help needs separated. I can not imagine dumping a new mach3V4 on top of all this (;-)
Next would be the issue of copyrights to the various manuals already in print. I personnelly do not have any problem with anything I have placed on this site as to being copied or modified. That is the reason I wrote it for others to use.
SOME are not so easy going with that part. They do not want ANYONE to copy anything they posted.
(;-) TP
(;-) TP
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All in all though, the current docs are probably 90 ish % right ? ? ?
Might be best to make users aware of this and also encourage to use the Forum Search (make it more friendly/easy to nav).
Still, seems the majority of posts are pertaining items that are correct in the docs. but display very little effort to seek the solutions before posting.
The bigger and more complex/complete you make a manual, the less it is likely to be used by many. I personally prefer a very large manual with a great index .... but really feel for the cat that writes it. (Thanks Rich for your contributions).
Russ
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One fellows signature on another forum I visit says:
"It's only a stupid question if you didn't Google it first".
I'm with Himy on that one with one partial exception ... a 24Kbs dialup connection.
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Thanks to all the document writers of Mach3 over the years, and then ART said (;-)
(;-) TP
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There is only one thread that i am aware of for the lathe that users posted what is wrong or should be fixed.
When I worte the LC manual i deliberatly put a page of bugs or known problems list in it so that the user would be aware of them and for that matter i wouldn't forget what they were. Frankly i see nothing wrong with something like that.
Terry "hits the nail on the head", Mach is very configurable. The more complex the system or what a user wants to do the more likely they will run into problems and the problem can be PC, electrical, programming, configuration, a bug .....how do you address it all.....
As far as rights to whatever was written, here is my approx. responses to those that wanted my originals for there owne use and rewrite. "You can have the originals but you they must be used strictly for your owne use and never published. Anything you change or enhance must be shared with me and the community of users here since that is why it was written in the first place. The only recognized manual will be what is posted here and you must share whatever you have written so the original can be enhanced. If you can't agree to that then you don't get the originals." For the approx 10 times that they have been asked for not one has said yes. ;)
RICH
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BTW,
My New Years resolution is that wealth, happiness, good health, and good pillowing is wished on everyone and not necessarily in that order. All things will only be expressed in terms of good and positive thoughts.
Folks at work keep telling me to go get a check-up! :)
Told an rather large gal she looked nice....she cursed me!
Gave the bum on the corner a quarter....gave me back a buck and said i needed it more than he!
Gave a freindly smile to the dog on the street and he bit me!
Wished my boss happiness and was told not to be a smart ask!
Wished my neighbor good health and was he told me he was dying and that my time would come also!
Wished my meighbor good pillowing and she said it will cost more than the 20 spot i have in my wallet!
It's been a rough few days of the new year.............
RICH
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I am a newbie and very green. I never thought of most of this. I will try to do better but I have no idea what questions will be ask or what information you might need.
I understand exactly the newbie syndrome. BUT the way to be an expert is first RTFM and then supply what info you have so at least we know you are using mach3 (;-). That is not too much to ask
There was no manual supplied with my ShopMaster and the manual for the VFD was the wrong model. If it wasn't for help that machine would be on E-Bay and I wouldlick my wounds. I can't say enough how I am indebted to you guys for thehelp
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I agree with Johnny RTFM.
I started my project 6 or seven years ago. I download Mach and played with it on a computer.
I read the forum, and the manual. I used the brains of the suppliers of my parts, Gecko, stepper motor supplier,
Bob supplier, and finally here. I got 90% to the finish line and used the talent here to get to 98%.
I don't think I will ever get to 100% but I enjoy my machine and more over the challenge it has given
me.
I have a fair bit of experience in electronics, and mechanical work, so that was a big plus.
I think many are over their head from the software setup, and electronics, but have great talent
in the design and vision of the end product. All of which is a good thing.
I think a questionaire on some basic information is much needed and would help the
forum members to guide individuals to success.
I visit other forums for various processes and all have dumb (no ofense intended) questions asked.
I love this place and hope I can help people solve some of their problems like other have helped me.
Just my two cents.
olf20 / Bob
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BOB that is the very spirit of the MachSupport Forum (;-) From Unknowing to learning to helping others.
(;-) TP