Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Mike1000 on December 14, 2012, 10:15:34 AM
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Hi. I am new on this forum.
I have almost completed a new X2 mini mill CNC conversion. The ballscrews and steppers on all three axes are mounted. The machine has been stripped down completely, cleaned, lubricated, and built up again.
I have a 48V SMPSU (switch mode power supply) wired up, the stop button is connected, and a Geckodrive with a parallell port connection is set up. I have been able to get at least one of the axes running via the LPT port on my old Windows XP machine. This looks good so far.
However, I want to go to 64 bit Windows 7 in the near future. On that Windows installation I use new hardware: there is no LPT (Parllell port). As I understand: on 64 bits system I am required to use an external motion controller.
So to the question: What external motion controller do I choose?
Here are some criteria for selection the external motion controller that I can think of:
Should work under Win 7, 64bits
Should have a standard interface ( probably USB or Ethernet )
Should be fast enought to run hobby mills like the X2, X3. Should also be usable for a future CNC'ed lathe project
Should work with Gecko drives with no issues
Should be able to handle 4 axes, possibly 5 for future expansion
Should have a reasonable user base, so support is available
Should not be a beta version
Should be fairly easy to get up and running
I/O ports should have proper connectors and be reasonably buffered
No need for closed loop control at the moment, stepper control is fine
Should not be a very old design that will go end of life anytime soon
Should sell at a reasonable price
Should be possible to use on Mach 4 in the future
Question: what external motion controller you suggest that I acquire?
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Pretty much ANY of the existing motion controllers will do everything you suggest. But I have to wonder why on earth you'd choose 64-bit Win7 as the OS for a machine controller? There is absolutely no advantage whatsoever. And if you're planning to use the same machine for other purposes, that's really not a great idea. When running Mach3, you really do NOT want to be doing ANYTHING else with the machine if you want the machine to operate reliably.
Most people would use a dedicated PC with WinXP. If you don't have one, they are readily available for next to nothing, as there is no need for a particularly fast machine, nor for a lot of memory. And with XP, you can simply use the parallel port, which is MORE than adequate for running any X2. I ran for several years on a PC I got for free - 544MHz, 512M of RAM. Never had a single problem that could be blamed on the machines performance. And that was running a servo-driven machine that is FAR more demanding than any X2. My next machine was a use Dell bought on EBay for $80 delivered to my door - 2GHz, 1Gb RAM. My current machine is an HP I paid $100 for - 2.5GHz, 3Gb RAM, dual-monitor video. ALL came with XP-Pro pre-installed. ANY motion controller will cost you considerably more than simply buying a dedicated PC running XP, and will give you absolutely no functional benefits whatsoever.
Regards,
Ray L.
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Hello Mike, and welcome to the group !
This is a topic that has been discussed to great length.
The SEARCH engine on this forum will reveal gads of info on the subject.
Place this "External Motion Controller" into the SEARCH box( be sure to use the " 's) and check out the latest pertinent posts.
Any further questions will be addressed by very knowledgeable folks here.
Kind regards,
Russ
:)
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Hi Ray. Thanks for answering. There are several reasons for transitioning to 64 bit:
I want one OS platform for all machines
I want to phase out legacy platforms
Win XP will be end of support in few years from MS. That means no service packs, no security fixes, no .NET upgrades, less and less support for new mainboards
You can no longer purchase win XP
I do not wat to use pirated versions of xp as the trouble is not worth it
Vista is no option
Windows 7 or Windows 8 is the future os'es from Microsoft to go for. Those are the only ones you can buy at the moment if I am correct
Finally, most users are going to 64 bit when going to Windows 7 or 8. 32 bit Windows 7 is a "strange" platform many people say.
Tnx Overloaded, will try the search!
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Not sure why XP support should be and issue at all. It is the most stable OS for this application at present, and, as I said, if you're planning on using the same PC for other purposes, you're asking for trouble anyway. Not being able to "buy" XP is a non-issue, as you can easily buy a machine that has it pre-installed, which gives you a valid license, so why would you ever need to buy it? 64-bit offers nothing of value in this application. Again, you're more likely to create problems for yourself, and there's nothing to gain to offset that risk, so why do it? "Most users are going to 64 bit...."?? On what do you base this? I know very few people who've gone 64-bit, and those few are using big-memory applications - PhotoShop, commercial CAD programs, and other things where it's needed. There's absolutely no need for it here. You'll be one of a VERY small number of people using the setup you're suggesting, which almost certainly means you'll have problems that nobody else has, and fixing them will be a low priority for the developers. Makes no sense to me, when XP is cheap, stable, available, and has been proven to work well by 99% of the Mach3 user base.
Regards,
Ray L.
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"Most users are going to 64 bit...."?? On what do you base this?
Probably the fact that 99% of new PC's come with a 64bit OS.
The biggest issue with motion controllers is support of the plugin. Because Mach3 is so complex, I'd be willing to bet that no plugins support all of Mach3's features 100%. Most users will probably never notice this, though. The question is how good are the developers at fixing issues when bugs arise.
From what I read, I'd say that the Smoothstepper is the only device with what you might consider a "reasonable user base". It's hands down the most popular by a huge margin.
I/O ports should have proper connectors and be reasonably buffered
Not sure what you mean by proper connectors, but most of these devices still require the use of breakout boards, often connected with ribbon cables.
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"Most users are going to 64 bit...."?? On what do you base this?
Probably the fact that 99% of new PC's come with a 64bit OS.
Yes, but he's not talking about a new PC, he's talking about an existing Win7 PC. And, among Mach3 users, Win7 is a tiny minority of the installed base. The VAST majority are running XP. I can't understand people who want to add some "Gee Whiz" feature, just because it's the feature du jour in the rest of the world, even though it has ZERO benefit in this application, AND it puts then well outside the mainstream of users. As finicky as Mach3 is, and as many problem as users have when they keep within the mainstream, it just makes no sense to virtually "blaze a new trail" when there is no benefit, and no need, to do so. This means when they do run into problems (and they pretty much always do....), there will likely be nobody to help them solve those problems, because nobody else will be running the some configuration, and the developers will have little interest in spending their very limited time helping someone resolve a problem that will only affect a tiny number of users.
Regards,
Ray L.
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While there are more existing Mach installations using WinXP at this time, about 95% of new installations I see now are using Win7-64 (a few Win7-32). Some problems are that for newer PC hardware you may not find WinXP drivers and if your manufacturing a machine you want to make sure that the OS you install now will have support for as long a time frame as possible. From this long term support perspective XP is dead.
I've been running Win7-64 with both USB and Ethernet SmoothSteppers for more than a year now. It works very, very well. The PC I'm using in the shop is not a high dollar, fast machine either. It's a Asus all-in-one touch screen PC that I picked up for about $350 from Newegg. I have lots of customers using both XP and Win7 but as I mentioned before 95% of new installations are using Win7-64.
For new installations I like to recommend the Ethernet SmoothStepper over the USB version. The Ethernet version is much more stable in environments where electrical noise. I'm seeing the sales of controllers (w/SS built in), SS enclosure, and bare SS boards are moving more toward Ethernet as well.The big thing to consider with an external motion controller is that it supports all the functional requirements you have. For some systems a board like Galil may be a better fit.
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Hi Jeff. Yes I agree with you. Since practically all new PCs today are shipped with a 64 bit OS, - 64 bit will be the standard in a few years. 32 bit will likely be on the decline in a few years on the Windows platform (on new machines shipped).
As the other gentleman wrote, of course you can buy an old XP machine with a valid XP license, but why would I want to go to an old OS if I don't have to? In a few years XP will not be supported by Microsoft anymore and as soon as a new security issue arises, it will be difficult to close that security hole. XP is approx 10 years old now if I recall correctly.
The Win 7 install is for a new machine by the way. Solidworks and other cad software will also be installed on that machine. Later I will go to Win 8.
OK, thanks for mentioning Smoothstepper. I will take a look at it.
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By the way, what I mean by "I/O ports should have proper connectors and be reasonably buffered" is that there should be a breakout board with screw terminals available or the motion controller should have screw terminals on the PCB.
With buffering, I mean that the IO signals should be run thru a buffer so that in case an overvoltage, static spike, short or something damages the controller it will only take out the buffer. Buffers are easy to change. Alternatively the IO should have very good protection. (I am not sure if these specs are available on controllers like these, but they are on most industrial equipment).
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Mike, i appreciate your feelings about an outdated os and keeping the same system on all machines. But, you won't see the os on a working pc and there will always be a version of xp available from somewhere, even if it's only a set of working codes to register.
XP is proven to be exceptionally effective as an os for Mach3, and you're not going to get any infection or security issue as the computer would not be internet connected....or would it.?
Let's hope that win 7 becomes the next xp, but atm xp seems to dominate.
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Hi Angel Tech. I agree that XP is a good and stable OS. I have been using XP since it were launched.
I am sure there will be an XP available, however it depends on your policy towards supported or not supported OS'es. Who uses Win 98 and NT nowadays by the way? ... The CNC computer will likely be internet connected and I will probably use ethernet to transfer NC files from other computers to it.
OK, let's stick to the subject: What external motion controller do I select? :)
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just one more point, internet connection....why.?
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I will answer you when you tell me what external motion controller to use! :)
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lol, whichever one suits your needs.
smooth stepper seems to be backed up well
ethernet version.
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Hi Mike, CS-Labs for me.
..... if the good reviews continue.
Plan to purchase in April.
Russ
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I'd take a look at the following:
Centipede http://www.ksilabs.com/
KFlop http://www.dynomotion.com/KFLOP.html
http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/index.php?m=gallery&s=show&fid=63&sort=&uinfo=CSMIOIPS_6_axis_CNC_Ethernet_Motion_Controller_STEPDIR
HiCON http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/hicon/hicon.php
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I thought that W7 allowed one to boot-up on a different drive so one could have XP installed also on a different drive or partition. So if you wanted, you could have two worlds to play with. Different formating of the partitioned drives, not sure about that.
but why would I want to go to an old OS if I don't have to?
Because it works and is reliable with current Mach. One can select the time frame to change.
By the time a new user figures out just what they really need to do what they want with their machine there will probably be another Windows version out.....another external motion controller ..........another whatever.......
Heck, anybody figured out how to use a DOS batch file to get Mach working, and better yet how to keep my tape drive from
slowing down. ;)
Maybe it's time to upgrade....... :)
RICH
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YES you can start MAch3 from a DOS Batch file AND your tape drive is missing steps, lower the accel rate.
(;-) TP
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One thing we've noticed with Win7 64 bit is that about 1 out of 3 times I start Mach3 it opens with a fatal error and shuts down. This doesn't happen on Win7 32 bit or WinXP. I really like Win7 embedded 32 bit. It's a stripped down, lean and mean version of Win7 with all the stuff you need and none of the garbage.
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I have been running Win7-64 and Mach for more than a year and have never had the problem you describe. I have lots of customers running the same combination and have not heard of this issue. My guess is that there is some hardware or driver issue on your PC, there have been a few similar issues reported with Mach and XP over the years so I don't think it is Win7-64 specific. Anytime I've had a customer with a really strange Mach/PC problem reinstalling Windows from scratch has taken care of it. A lot of guys will get a hold of an older PC that has had a lot of carp installed/removed over the years, even a new PC comes with a load of crap installed.
Just some ideas to look at...
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Excellent Jeff.
A clean Win 7 64 install with an external motion controller sounds like the way to go - when the time for new hardware comes. As for now for testing with my old XP machine will have to do (until XP support is ended from Microsoft's side). I am a beginner when it comes to CNC machines for milling so that's where the majority of the learning activity will happen for me. Pc's I know something about.
I see you mention in an earlier post on this thread that you have a machine with touch: is a touch equipped monitor a "must" for operating Mach 3 efficiently?
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A touch screen is not a necessity but it is very nice. To get the most from a touch screen you really need a screen set that is made for touch use. That standard Mach touch screen is rather lousy for touch purposes. Once you get used to running Mach with a touch screen it feels really natural. I find myself pressing the 'Start' button on the screen all the time on machines without touch screens, it just seems like the thing you should do.
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OK Jeff. I will give it a try without a touch screen at first. I have a newer 24" monitor with LED backlight that I intend to use. Thanks for clarifying the touch issue.
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OK thanks to all ppl that answered my questions.
My conclusion is that when time comes to go to Win 7 64 bit, it will be possible to run. I will need an external motion controller. The motion controller will likely be controlled via Ethernet. Win 7 will be installed from scratch and I will not rely on a pre-installed version of Win 7 that may have ad-ware and other trash included.
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Mike...don't know if this is too late...I'm running Mach 3 on a Windows 7/64 bit computer with no problems at all, and I'm using a UC-100 USB motion controller with no problems at all...I did this because my XPERIA machine decided to die, and I had a W/7 computer available to me... The motion controller plugs into the computer with a USB and to my break-out with a DB-25 (same as old printer cable)...my router runs smoother and faster (only had to retune the motors and install the plugin available from the maker...hope this helps
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since the solid-works2017 , masterCAM2017 are all 64 bit, I am looking for all in one machine even for complex parts CAD-CAM-CNC I cannot find mastercam V9 to download, As post processer available for masterCAM V9 only.
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Hi,
Mastercam , any version, is a commercial product and a very very good one, probably the oldest and most expensive CAM programs. If you can afford
Mastercam you can afford as many computers as you can eat!
Mach is a near clone of Fanuc so most Fanuc posts work for Mach as well. There is a Mach post written for X5 but would still work for X9 at a guess.
A search of the forum should find it, CNCZone is worth a look too.
Craig