Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: jasminder on September 02, 2012, 02:56:07 PM
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Hi guys,
Long time since my last post. I need a suggestion from the experienced here (hello Hood)
Well, i have been using mach3 for the past 2 or 3 years on my DIY lathe (but it hardly ran for ~500 hours or a month if calculated precisely)
I love mach3 for its ease of use, simplicity and features except the stability (the unknown error triggers, system hangs etc)
but i am now going to make another CNC for commercial use and need a more stable control that won't crash or hang all the day long.
Should i go with some commercial CNC controls like Fagor or GSK (i want to keep the price low) or these new CNC lathe software + hardware combo are of any use? (planet cnc, USB cnc , Probotix USB CNC etc) They don't use Mach3 and have their own brains.
I want to know if you have any experiences with any of these (i was thinking about Mach3 + smoothstepper but i read that the setup is still not stable enough).
I contacted Mach3 support and the reply was "Mach3 is what it is for now".
I am double minded about this controller thing. Please put some light (i am afraid i will spend 2000$ on a commercial control and end up frying it's inputs and outputs maybe) I just need to control 2 axes and a turret. No fancy features are needed.
Jasminder Singh
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I have no experience with the controls you mention but also I have never experienced any of the problems with Mach that you mention. I can not remember the last time I had the computer freeze up etc.
Sounds to me like you have problems more with the computer than with Mach.
Hood
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I have no experience with the controls you mention but also I have never experienced any of the problems with Mach that you mention. I can not remember the last time I had the computer freeze up etc.
Sounds to me like you have problems more with the computer than with Mach.
Hood
I am even more confused when everybody says me that. Seems like i should try a faster computer than a P4.
Do you think that changing the kernel speed of the program should help improving the stability?
I always use 25khz.
200 pulse/rev steppers used at 1/4 stepping. Two axis only.
thanks for your help,
Jasminder singh
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I run two of my machines from via Pico motherboards which are only 1Gig CPUs. I do however use external controllers (Smoothstepper and Ethernet Smoothstepper) and that does take a lot of the stress away from the computer.
Using 25KHz should be the most stable but 1/4 stepping is probably not the best to use, I think 1/10 is optimum according the Gecko so as close to that the better. That however will make no difference to the computer so its not your problem.
Maybe your issues are power? Could your power be dirty and fluctuate a lot?
I am testing out a new external controller at the moment from CS Lab of Poland and so far it is looking very good, it also runs Mach but everyone I have seen so far that is using them seems to like them and no issues so far.
Hood
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I have found most 'stability' problems are really problems related to how the machine was put together. Poor wiring practice often leads to incorrectly grounded machines that give the PC fits. Some types of components, like VFDs produce a LOT of electrical noise and if not installed properly (grounding, isolation, etc) then there is almost always problems.
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I run two of my machines from via Pico motherboards which are only 1Gig CPUs. I do however use external controllers (Smoothstepper and Ethernet Smoothstepper) and that does take a lot of the stress away from the computer.
Using 25KHz should be the most stable but 1/4 stepping is probably not the best to use, I think 1/10 is optimum according the Gecko so as close to that the better. That however will make no difference to the computer so its not your problem.
Maybe your issues are power? Could your power be dirty and fluctuate a lot?
I am testing out a new external controller at the moment from CS Lab of Poland and so far it is looking very good, it also runs needs Mach but everyone I have seen so far that is using them seems to like them and no issues so far.
Hood
Hmm, you could be right. I have a a second PC hooked up on my machine and i think that when a PC is just new, it works better. But after few months it starts creating problems. It could be the dust destroying the M-board possibly. Do you know a cost effective solution to keep the electronics and control cool while keeping air tight? I was thinking about using a small refrigerator and changing the thermostat with a 25-35 degrees or using a cheap closed loop temperature controller with the fridge(17$ on ebay). Panel coolers and heat exchangers are very expensive here. A used on on ebay i found for 300$. (a new small fridge cost here 100$). The idea seems funny but i guess it should work if i keep the temperature a bit high than the Dew point.
regards,
Jasminder singh
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I have found most 'stability' problems are really problems related to how the machine was put together. Poor wiring practice often leads to incorrectly grounded machines that give the PC fits. Some types of components, like VFDs produce a LOT of electrical noise and if not installed properly (grounding, isolation, etc) then there is almost always problems.
Dear jeff,
I will try grounding everything there is to be grounded.
The VFD ate my CRT monitor's display. Guess what it will be doing to the control. You are absolutely right.
regards,
jasminder singh
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I will post my experience after grounding the electronics.
thanks to Hood and jeff once again.
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Your idea of a fridge may not be too funny, I used to be into overclocking CPUs and I had Vapochill unit hooked up to my CPU, kept it at -10 deg C or below :)
The big problem with cooling things is condensation so you have to be careful of that, if you keep the fridge well above zero then it likely wont be an issue, certainly worth a try.
Dust and dirt however I am not sure about being a real problem, I have seen my workshops desktop computer that covered in muck that I can hardly make out components on the motherboard and it still works away fine.
I suppose I am lucky in that I live in a cool climate, maybe it is the heat that is the killer.
Hood
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Hmm,
I am glad to hear that the fridge idea can work. I am sure i can use a closed loop temp. controller to keep the temperature of the fridge a bit higher than the DEW point so i will surely give it a trial if i cannot get a panel air cooler for cheap price. For now i have 3 peltier plates (TEC) lying around and i want to try making a small AC with them but i am not sure if 3 of them are just enough to cool this cabinet (24X22X8 inches) :
http://s1186.photobucket.com/albums/z379/jasomkakad/?action=view¤t=wiringenclosure.jpg
I have made this cabinet just and have not tried Mach3 after that. (does anybody see a wiring failure in the cabinet? Is the VFD going to effect the Mboard sitting a foot away from it?
But if i go for a commercial panel cooler/AC how much cooling capacity i need in the cooler?
Can anybody make a guess in BTU? from the picture (there is a 2HP 3ph VFD, 2 computer PSU, 1 Switching supply DC 20V 8A, Two stepper motors drivers)
please somebody make an estimate of the heat being produced in watts or BTU etc so that i can get an idea of the cooler type i need.
regards,
Jasminder singh
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I live in Florida and I can tell you without a doubt heat plays a big part of Machs (computer) stability. During the cooler months no problems. But as soon as it gets warm things can get a little funky. I now have an air conditioned shop (yea) and no longer see any glitches or hangs.
Derek
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Sorry cant help with BTU etc as I have never had to even think about things like that with living here, antifreeze in coolant is more the type of things I have t worry about ;D
Having a VFD right next to stepper drives etc is not the best idea but looks like a Mitsubishi so likely will not throw out as much noise as the Chinese ones.
Notice you dont have any of your wiring shielded, might be an idea to do that if you can especially as you are likely talking 5v signalling in a lot of them.
Hood
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The benefits of a chilled cooling system (if any) have to be weighed against its increased complexity. I used to work on automated welding and cutting machines which is a very hot/dirty environment. The number of times we had to use chilled cooling was very, very small though. Typically it was only where there was a device in very close proximity to a heat source, like having a laser tracking system near the welding torch. As has been mentioned you can cause yourself more problems by the chilled loops tendency to want to condensate. This requires adjusting the chiller precisely for the environmental conditions.
A PC should have no problems staying cool though unless you have it stuffed in a hole where it can't get any airflow. I suspect more problems with PCs in shops are caused by power quality than heat. With lots of machinery there is lots of electrical noise and that can bring about lots of problems.
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Points i am going to implement:
1. Shield wires.
2. Good quality closed loop temp controller to keep the temp between 30-40 degrees.
3. Small fridge for the cabinet (today i made a phone call to a friend who repairs fridge and AC to look for a ~90L fridge for me and he laughed after i told him what i need it for)
Anything else i should care for?
yes Jeff and Hood, the dust is not really harmful for the PC if it is just dust. But we cut and grind a lot of casting iron in our workshop that produces a lot of "Conductive dust" that drives the Mach3 nuts. I am sure that 99% of my machine's stability issue is going to be solved after giving the electronics an air tight enclosure.
thanks,
Jasminder singh
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Look at this guys:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PID-Digital-Temperature-Control-Controller-Thermocouple-0-to-400-/250984126629?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6fd1d8a5
This is a very cost effective PID temp controller (it is being sold from china but is made in japan and can turn on/off an SSR to switch on/off the fridge i am gonna use) what do you say?
Jasminder singh
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I live in Florida and I can tell you without a doubt heat plays a big part of Machs (computer) stability. During the cooler months no problems. But as soon as it gets warm things can get a little funky. I now have an air conditioned shop (yea) and no longer see any glitches or hangs.
Derek
thanks for your input derek.
But i have a 900 sq/ft workshop that i cannot afford to AC completely. Even my own living room is not AC at home. This CNC lathe is going to be lucky to have his personal AC to chill it's hot a**.
Jasminder singh
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My Mach computer lock on occasion and I'm fairly sure it's power related, I have a few UPS's on my work machinery and have few problems with them since doing putting them on UPS's.
Same when I ran Win 98, I got a drastic drop in crashing when they were on a UPS.
Steve