Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: CES on August 05, 2012, 04:42:23 PM
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Hi All,
I have been turning the handwheels for about 4 years and now it is time to change that. I located the ball screws and associated hardware and then Mach3 and then the NEMA23 stepper motors and the 3 Axis CNC Driver board and a power supply. At this point I have everything but can't verify the motion of the stepper motors.
I am running Mach3 Version R3.043.022 (the build the really bad looking green Settings screen).
The TB6560 stepper motor driver controller board is the interface between the Steppers and the PC.
http://www.nbglin.com/tb6560.htm and see below for original manufacturer (hyu68).
Motors make noise but shafts do not move. I have increased the pulse width (in Motor Tune) of the step pulse from 0 to 5 in 1uS increments. No motor shaft movement. I have tuned the motors so they sound smooth and don't jerk on the table but still no shaft movement. I have changed Acceleration and Velocity to minimal values and gone up from there and all I get are motor buzzing but no motor shaft movement.
If I turn the Slow Jog Rate to 1% or lower, the motors grind but the shafts do not move. Below 1% and the motors make a grinding noise and the shafts oscillate and but do not actually rotate.
I have been unable to get any forward or backward movement out of the motors so I have not attempted to calibrate the different axis which I will do as soon as I get rotation out of the motor shafts.
The motors are wired with Red to A+, Blue to A-, Green to B+ and Black to B- on all three motor connections.
My DC supply from Mean Well is set for 24.08V and will support up to 14.5A before dropping below 22V. The NEMA23 stepper motors are rated at 3 to 3.5A so the power supply has enough power to drive all three at the same time and remain at or very near 24V.
My TB6560 3-Axis CNC Driver board came with no information; however I have found the manufacturer and requested information. I expect the data to be what I am using for my X, Y and Z pin settings.
I found several different Port / Pin settings that make the motors make sound but none that make the shafts turn.
In searching for the correct Port Pin settings, this is what I found -
On one web page:
Axis Step Dir
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X 2 3
Y 4 5 Y axis makes noise if 4 is changed to 14
Z 6 7
and on another:
X 1 7
Y 8 3
Z 5 4
and another setting that I found makes the motors make noise but still not move the shafts:
X 2 7
Y 14 3
Z 6 4
(This is the one I am using)
http://www.fozztexx.com/CNC/HY-TB3DV-M_3Axis_Driver.pdf
Original manufacturer website (sorry it is only in Chinese)
http://www.hyu68.com/HY-TB3DV-M.htm
Google translator web page:
http://translate.google.com/?tl=zh-TW&q=undefined#zh-CN/en/
The steppers are on a table in my house so not connected to my (future) CNC. The motors can turn forever and hit no stop. I think I have ESTOP turned off (not enabled).
I must be missing something in my configuration but after watching all of the videos and searching the web I found nothing that would make the motor shafts rotate.
I did select "inch" and wish I had left everything in "mm" as the entire setup would have been easier.
Any help in getting the motor shafts turning the way they should would be greatly appreciated by this complete novice CNC builder.
Oh, BTW, I am modifying a Grizzly MILL with parts from CNC Fusion.
My xml is attached.
Thanks in advance,
CES
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Hi Chas,
I think your first guess at the pins allocation is probably the right one.
I have made an alteration to your .xml for you to try (If this makes your motors move then you need to set up all the other parameters to suit your system). Rename the CES2.xml to Mach3Mill.xml. ;)
Tweakie.
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Hi Tweakie,
I downloaded the changed xml file, placed it in the Mach3 folder, renamed the current file and renamed the downloaded file as per your instructions. I get no movement in the steppers at all in any screen.
With the file I posted, the Time and Int hovers around 2.3 to 4.8, the pulse frequency is 27989 to 27999, Blended Spd is 16.8 while jogging with the arrow keys. The DRO's show movement and the motors hum but the shafts do not move.
I started with the setting of Mach3 and changed to inch, changed the table size and setup the "Config" menu items for Port and Pins, Motor Tuning and General Config to setup the editor to be Notepad++.exe (Freeware and a very good tool).
CES
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Hi CES,
Perhaps, with a multimeter check your motor connections (motors disconnected). The Red / Blu pair (A+ / A-) should show continuity and same with the Grn / Blk pair. Also check your parallel port lead to ensure that all pins are connected and that they connect pin 1 to pin 1, 2 to 2, 3 to 3 and so on.
If you are using WinXP then download and run Parmon http://www.geekhideout.com/parmon.shtml this will let you determine that your PC parallel port is actually outputting signals.
Tweakie.
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Just skimmed through this so maybe its been mentioned already, if so just ignore :) but do you have the correct port address set in Mach?
Hood
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Okay Tweakie and Hood,
1 - Yes, I have checked the motors. 0.003 ohms Red to Blue, Green to Black. All motors are the same. DC signal is a wire between my DMM leads.
2 - Yes, The Parallel cable is a one to one cable. All lines are point to point, Pin 1 to Pin 1, Pin 2 to Pin 2,...Pin 25 to Pin 25. The little beeper is good to work with.
3 - No, it will not run in Windows 7. Oh, Yes I can and will. The motors are making a whirling noise so I expect the port is working... Installing Windows stuff. I'll have to get back to you on this, a restart is necessary for me to run Windows XP in Windows 7.
4 - Yes, I have the correct Port Address. I happen to be using LPT3 at address 0x8C00.
CES
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Tweakie,
Bad news, The Parallel Port Monitor does run in Windows XP mode on my Windows 7 PC but it does not see LPT3. I will reconfigure the parallel port to be on LPT2 but that will have to wait for the morning as it is after my bed time, sorry to say. 5:30AM comes early...
CES
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When you say a whirring noise I am wondering if that is stalling?
You have 2000 steps per unit set up and you are set in Imperial units so that would mean the motors will have to spin quite fast.
Hood
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Hello Hood,
With a Steps per setting of 120, Velocity = 30, Acceleration = 35 and G's = 0.0388528, the motors make a heck of a noise and the shafts move but not in a single direction. Above 500 Steps per the shaft movement stops and the grinding noise changes to a whirring. The grinding noise changes as the Steps per goes up.
Could I have been so unlucky as to have picked up three bad Stepper Motors?
CES
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I'm just curious, when its "whiring" have you held the shaft and does it seem to vibrate? possibly a+ and a- are reversed?
John
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Hi CES,
Just a thought, but if (with everything switched off) you rotate the steppers by hand and can feel a magnetic detent (a sort of cogging) then they are probably good and it is more likely that it is the driver board which is bad. If the steppers rotate freely without any cogging that would indicate that the rotors are not magnetized and in that case they may well behave much as you have described.
Tweakie.
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Hey Woodspinner,
Nope, the shafts are only vibrating as much as the motor housing.
So here is what I know:
The correct port address is in place
The port is outputting pulses
The motors are being driven by pulses
The pulse train may not be large enough to do the work - Caution - only using a DMM! Pulses reaches 3.38V on DC and about 6V on AC
The pulse train is always positive on A+ to A- and on B+ to B-
Lower Slow Jog Rate causes about the same effect as dropping the Steps per or Velocity, the motors whine or grind
When whining, no shaft movement occurs and I can make the whining go so high pitch that I can't hear it
When grinding, the shafts move in large jumps but not in a coordinated manor
The DC supply outputs 24.08V
The X axis output is connected to the X motor, Y to Y and Z to Z per Mach 3 setup. This checks out with the motors.
Hood and Tweakie have been trying to help and now WoodSpinner has joined the group of helpers.
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Hi Tweakie, I am not able to turn the motors. I thought this not quite right. The steppers are very strong steppers (200 inch pound?) so I did not think I should be able to turn them.
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Ah, the steppers have that good dent feeling when I use a vise grip. Even with the motors connected to the board and power on, the vise grip is able to rotate the shaft with ease. So, can I guess the driver board is bad?
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Ah, the steppers have that good dent feeling when I use a vise grip. Even with the motors connected to the board and power on, the vise grip is able to rotate the shaft with ease. So, can I guess the driver board is bad?
Hi CES,
That is perhaps not a good assumption to make. Steppers that have stalled can actually have less torque than when they are not powered at all.
The fact that you have 3.3 Volt logic output from your Parallel port card is more likely to be the clue to the problem. If it was me, I would obtain a PP card with 5 Volt logic output and try that before anything else.
Tweakie.
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Hi Tweakie,
The pulse train is being amplified by the card and the pulses I measured were at the output of the PP card. With an amplitude of 5V and a duty cycle of 10% I think I would measure about 0.05V with my DMM directly from the PP. However, with a value 24V (or something close to it) and the same duty cycle I would expect to measure a higher value at the output of the driver card which I do.
CES
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What company makes a good PP card and what company makes a good CNC driver board? I'd like to get them ordered.
Any suggestions?
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Gecko makes good stepper drivers and the G540 is popular http://www.geckodrive.com/featured-products.html
Tweakie.
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I'm just curious, when its "whiring" have you held the shaft and does it seem to vibrate? possibly a+ and a- are reversed?
John
It does sound like it, I've got the wires the wrong way round before and as Ces explained he gets the stepper jumping around at a low pulse speed- an out of phase situation.
Test for good pulses on all stepper wires.
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It does sound like it, I've got the wires the wrong way round before and as Ces explained he gets the stepper jumping around at a low pulse speed- an out of phase situation.
Test for good pulses on all stepper wires.
Its easy to check too, swap the a+ and a- wires on one stepper/driver and see, you can always put them back if it doesnt make any difference, and I'll shut up.
John
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John,
Great suggestion and I just tried it. That's what I'd call Out-of-the-Box thinking. But, unfortunately, it did not help. I tried all eight possible connections even swapping A and B wires.
I tried to move the PP card but it will not change addresses, it is stuck at 0x8C00 so the port monitor parmon will not find it.
I have ordered a GECKO 540. That should fix the issue. Wish me luck and I'll be back Aug. 13th (the date the GECKO 540 will arrive).
I will keep monitoring the thread and keep trying to get this card running. (I still have a Lathe I will need to convert) :) ;D
My thanks to all that helped.
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I looked for a fix and found what might be a reasonable fix for the Chinese Blue 3 or 4 axis driver board. If you have similar issues as described in this thread, please check out cncZone thread:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_electronics_discussion/110986-how_i_fixed_my_chinese-6.html
(Sorry for cross website posting but it is related and may help others) :-*
This problem is definitely NOT a Mach3 issue but rather a poor design issue. The pulses from the PP card are not being propagated to the motor driver very well which causes poor response at best and as I have seen, no response.
Waiting for my Gecko 540 ;D
CES
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Anybody still monitoring this thread? I changed the pin mapping and found a setup that turns the motors in one direction. Any idea why only in one direction?
Thanks much,
CES
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If a motor goes in one direction then you have found the correct ‘step pin’. The ‘direction pin’ has to be ‘Hi’ for one direction of rotation and ‘Low’ for the other direction so perhaps you have not found the correct ‘direction pin’ for that motor..
Tweakie.
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Hi Tweakie,
I changed native units to metric and that is what got the shafts moving. After I found a pin setting that moved the X axis in both directions the motor got very warm meaning DC current was being run through it. Have I said that I really hate this "Blue hyu68 3 axis driver" board?
I was not given documentation with this Chinese board and the manufacturer will not respond to emails.
Still can't wait for the Gecko board.
CES
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Hi CES,
The steppers should run warm to the touch but not too hot that you cant hold your hand on them. If you are concerned then reduce the current settings (Amps).
(When you get your G540 you can calculate the resistor required to provide the correct current so the motors do not overheat).
Tweakie.
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CES,
I once helped a person with one of those Chinese boards. The documentation was bad. All the pinputs were wrong.
After fooling around like yourself for a "long time" we got one axis to work. Now do you know how many combinations are needed to
try to figure out all the rest? Loooooong story short, the kid figured it out by going thru a matrix, how many hours he spent I do not know.
If it was me I would have stuck that lousy Chinese dirver board where it belonged .....right in the trash can along with the Chinese documentation that came with it.
Sorry for your troubles, but a lesson learned can be a positive, namely....sometimes one gets what they pay for.
RICH
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Tweakie,
Thanks. The motor was so hot that I could not keep my hand on it so very fricking warm. I am running 100% at this point. So down to 75% might be the right solution.
Rich,
Yes, I have a very good idea of the possibilities. The first motor was the X axis and had 2^12 combinations and took me days. The second was very much shorter due to me noticing that pins 8 and 2 were somehow connected to the Y axis. The possibilities here were only 121 or 2 X 11 and none of them worked. The Z axis only had 7 combinations and I have not found any that turn the motor in both directions.
I believe the possible pins are 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11,14,16,17
For the X tried each one in Dir and Step for 2 ^12 but I was lucky in noticing that pin 1 stepped the X or I hoped it did. As I went through all the rest of the pins I found that pin 5 and 6 kicked the Z axis (made it tick but not move and that pins 8 and 2 ticked the Y axis. so things were a little shorter than they could have been.
I now have X Step as pin 1 and X Dir as pin 7 and this axis turns in both directions.
I also have Y Step as pin 8 and Y Dir as pin 2 but this axis does not turn in both directions.
I also have Z Step as pin 5 and Z Dir as pin 6 but this axis also does not spin in both directions.
On both the Y and Z axis I have tried all of the other combinations with both Dir and Step swapped and this is the only settings that give me shaft movement.
CES
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Well, the latest is that the motors have stopped turning. I do not like this Chinese POS.
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I do not like this Chinese POS.
right in the trash can along with the Chinese documentation that came with it.
ECHO........ ;D
RICH
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I received the Gecko G540 today. A rather nice looking package. The documentation I thought I'd receive with the board was non-existent, however, the internet turned up the manual in about 30 seconds.
Reading the documentation I find that I was to receive four (4) DB9 connectors with the package but did not receive them so I searched my electronics boxes and found nothing. Off the email the company but will probably drive the 30 miles to get them tomorrow. >:(
Now comes the interesting part. The Gecko documentation states that I need to know the inductance of the motors and of coarse, China did not send any data on these motors and I have search the web to no end - 57BYGH76-401A 1.8" Any knowledge about these little motors? ???
Then the documentation says to connect the power supply to the 12 pin connector but does not go into the connection block till many pages later so I sat here scratching my head. I'll just read and not do for now.
CES
p.s. I'm hoping to be Zooming in a few days :D
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Hi CES,
In the absence of any stepper motor data and because they were running too hot at 2.5 Amps with the Chinese blue board then a good starting point may be 2 Amps by fitting a 2K ohms 1/4Watt resistor. If the motors still run too hot then reduce the resistance value according to the Gecko Manual.
Tweakie.
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Tweakie, All,
I received the G540 from Gecko on Wednesday but the package lacked the DB9 connectors. I checked out the G540 as far as the Fault LED and the Green Power LED functioning as described. I now have two of the three motors turning in both directions. One stepper motor does not function in any of the axis but the other two function in three of the axis connections.
Hurray for small points.
The stepper motors are from a Chinese company named Goodluckbuy. Please stay away from this site as they may do to you what they have done to me. They did not ship the power supply so I had to fight with them for several weeks and ended up going to Visa to get the refund for the supply they did not ship to me.
Well, bad new now as one of the stepper motors is not working and they will not respond to any email I send. I'd say this is total customer loss on their part and I hope they lose everyone that reads this post.
Sorry to bash but I have seen the same on many other blogs
Has anyone ever taken a stepper motor apart? Looks like four screws from my point of view.
CES
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Hi CES,
I am pleased to hear that you are on your way. ;)
Just one note on stepper motors (and other motors for that matter) the copper wire used for the windings is insulated with a lacquer and it's insulating properties can easily be damaged by running them too hot.
Tweakie.
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Has anyone ever taken a stepper motor apart?
Yes and you can't fix them. Suggest that you check the ones that are working and record the resistance ( actualy many meters can also measure inductance and that's what you want) and make note of what it is for each winding.
Then check the one that is not working and compare. Doing a continuity test will show you if the winding is bad.
Usual rating on a stepper is like 180 deg F and you would blow the fuse , it will not work right, it will smell if the winding was
burnt, and if shorted would proabably also blow the drive. Note that if the amps are to low the motor will not turn.
RICH
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AAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!
I new I should not have wired up that last stepper motor on Thursday night. :-[ I swapped a Green wire for a Blue wire.
I'll have it up in 90 minutes! :D
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They Work! They Work!
All motors are turning and I have very little left to do to have a working CNC.
Tune the motors,
Attach the motors to the Mill,
Add the limit switches and wires,
and get a CAM program.
I'll have a 21" touch screen display, no keyboard (well, on-screen keyboard),
A Grizzly CNC with near zero backlash as opposed to the 6mm in X, the 12mm in Y and 13mm in Z I had.
I'll be a happy newbie to the CNC world...
I'm running the steppers at 2.2A so if I have problems I can increase that up to 3.5A.
I'll post pictures when it is all up and running. ;D
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Oh one last item. I doubt my 24V 14.6A supply is going to drive the motors per the Gecko spec. I'll need a higher voltage at the same current.
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add more current
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add more current
The main issues have been bypassed. The 24V supply is working fine and the Mill is working well. I'm running down the last bits of backlash. I have polished my X and Y ways (which fixed a lot of the issue). Still have uneven backlash in X axis. Working on that...
CES
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Hi all,
I realise this thread might be pretty much closed, but I am experiencing what might be a similar issue of steppers not moving. However in my case the steppers all make the appropriate noise. What I mean by that is if I run some G-Code through Mach3 without looking at the steppers you would swear everything is working fine. They speed up slow down and make the normal sounds you would normally hear as they follow the GCode. Problem is the shafts don't turn.
If I turn the shaft manaully when disconnected they have the appropriate cogging. If I try to turn it whilst in operation it resists and feels like it is trying to move the correct way. (forwards and reverse) but just can't get the shaft moving. I am running 3a 23 steppers with with 24v 3a PSU and board. Whilst the wiring config follows the manufacturers specs I have checked different options in case. i thought I had a dud motor but all four do the same.
I am a complete newbie and this my first attempt at CNC. Any ideas appreicated.
THanks
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They Work! They Work!
I'll post pictures when it is all up and running. ;D
Where are those pictures?
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Anyone still here? I'm having a similar problem, but my motors only turn one direction. It's not like one of those that turn one direction when you press + or - directions, mine only works one way. For example, the x motor only moves to the right when you press X+ but it doesn't move at all when you press X-. I know my pins are correct and my ports because sometimes X- will move but X+ won't move. Same goes with Y and Z.
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The Motor controller I have is Gecko G540. These controllers have a "PWM" and a "Direction" output for each motor. If any of the connections are incorrect, no motion. If the direction signal is not connected, the motors will only move in one direction. Try running thge motors manually and when you have good settings, your good to go. :)