Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => VB and the development of wizards => Topic started by: BR549 on June 20, 2012, 04:05:36 PM
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I am looking for MORE Wizards to do. GOT any IDEAS or wants or needs ???
(;-) TP
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YES !
Yes, I actually do.
Needing one very soon for a servo driven feeder to be used on a precision cold saw.
Not sure of industry standards, but this is what I have in mind.
There are two stationary clamps/vises, one on each side of the circular blade and one clamp/vise attached to the feeder.
The feeder axis would be HOMED at the end of it's stroke nearest to the blade.
The material is 12 feet long +/-
The stroke of the feeder screw is 30 inches.
The part cut length is 2.800 inches.
Clamp and trim the end to begin with, then retract the feeder to however many increments it can cut in one full stroke.
In this example, 30/2.8=10 x 2.8 = 28 Now, feed, cut, feed, cut and so on until the HOME pos., then retract 28" and resume.
Continue this cycle until a prox switch at the outboard edge of the feeder clamp senses the end of the material, most likely during a retract, at which time it will move to the increment that is JUST shy of making the switch, then resume feeding incrementally until reaching the HOME pos, then stop and wait to be reloaded by the operator.
This little bit of math alone gave me a throbber. (headache that is)
Been thinking G and M codes or maybe better just with macros ? ? ?
Also considered a PLC w/HMI but am more comfortable with Mach.
Am I on the right track ?
Suggestions welcome.
I saw poppabear's, have it too but not sure if it is exactly what I need.
For your consideration.
Thanks,
Russ
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Maybe have a review of the wizard list located in Members Doc's and see what's missing.
I know that some of the turn wizards could use a some fixen.
RICH
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Russ do you have ?
Names of the ouputs to drive the clamps
Name of the feed axis
Picture of it( for the background)
Do you want it as a wizard OR as a Mach3 Screenset??
It "Should" be fairly easy ? (famous last words)
(;-) TP
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Hi TP,
I will get a pic of the actual machine soon, here is a very similar example.
The feeder and the saw slide will be CNC'd, X and Y axis respectively.
The 3 clamps and the Ejector will be pneumatic.
Each cylinder will need 2 prox switches ea. and each Axis will have 1 Home/Limit switch ea.
The Feeder slide will have a prox sw. to sense the end of the material.
Might use a PoKeys for the I/O ? ? ? (this is where I was considering a PLC)
(the saw slide is now fluid controlled pneumatics, could possibly use this instead of CNC but would rather not. $.$$ might be a determining factor here)
The saw slide will have 3 basic positions. Retracted and extended for the cutting cycle and a fully retracted position for blade changes. ("Blade Change" button on-screen)
The Spindle and Coolant can be standard Mach M-Codes.
The Cycle:
Power up the machine and HOME the axis's.
All clamps OPEN, Ejector retracted, Saw retracted.
Operator selects CUT-Length from a file or enters directly into a DRO.
Configure the clamps for the selected job and load the material.
Manually close clamps 1 & 2 (push button)
All looks well, Cycle Start
1. Saw and Coolant turns ON, FEEDER retracts to the max number of possible cut-lengths per stroke, then clamps the material.
2. G1 Y** to make the cut then G0 Y0.
3. Clamp #1 opens
4. Ejector extends then retracts
5. Clamp #2 opens
6. FEEDER advances 1 cut-length increment.
7. Clamps #1 and #2 close
8. Repeat 2 thru 6 until the prox switch on the feeder slide senses the end of the material during a retract.
9. The feeder positions itself at the last available full cut-length increment and feeds the remaining stock thru the saw.
10. M30 (I guess the cycle could continue until a feeder retract drops the prox sw BEFORE one cut increment is reached, same thing ?)
I would guess a Mach3 Screenset would be the best.
Piece of cake ? ? ? ::)
Thanks for looking,
Russ
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Russ How about something like this ??
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WOW, you fast !
Looks great, but:
No need for the "Full Stroke Length DRO" as it is always the same. (the script knows)
No need for the "Material Length" DRO as they are all random length and the cycle will run until the feeder clamp prox sw sees the end.
"Cuts per Bar" DRO is not necessary for the same reason.
Not sure what you mean by "Trim Length" DRO. ? ? ?
Would also like something I don't think I've ever seen mention of on the forum, Individual FRO for X and Y. Possible ? ? ?
THANKS !
Russ
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In the first response you mentioned trim the ends of the stock to start ?? trim length (;-)
The other DROs (;-) Others may want to use it as well (;-)
OK NOW the rub. You want mach3 to act like a dumb PLC which relies on the prox switches to tell it when it is ready or when it is to stop. MACH3 as a CNC controller does not like that type of control nor really allows that type of control in G code. IT really onlly like to follow directions (Gcode)
In CB macro yes BUT in macro mode mach3 is a terrible motion controller as the Gcode/cb threads can slip out of sync.
IF we do all this in CB it MAY end up a nightmare to control OR to safely stop the machine. Even with Estop when you resume there is NO garrantee that the CB side will not restart on its OWN. YES that is a Mach3 safety bug.
I think it can be done using a Paramteric Gcode file to drive the move and cut AND have the CB side feed it the variables. That MAY give us a way to see the prox switch and have Mach3 react in Sync.
SO basically it may be all G code driven or nothing (;-). BUT we can work on it to see IF it can be done your way.
AS to individual axis FRO ?? NOPE (;-) can't happen. But you can different feedrates for infeed and Cut feedrate.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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The raw ends of the stock are manually loaded at a position that will true and square the end, by operator "eye". Some may be sheared, squashed or rough cut. This length varies and is not important. The stock is loaded and clamped, THEN the auto cycle starts.
I understand about the "Others" now, versatility. Good plan.
The RUB, let me absorb this and maybe get something physically set up then go from there.
I really need the position sensors at the cylinders to insure things are where they need to be before the next step takes place.
As said earlier, a PLC and a touch screen HMI would be great but I'm afraid I do not know enough about them to get the programming done.
A PLC - ModBus - Mach3 might work OK ? ? There again, getting out of my realm a bit.
I'll get back to ya.
Thanks TP,
Russ
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Hey TP, couple q's for ya.
I built a machine several years ago the used a PLC and 2 servos with indexing drives.
The PLC ran several blocks then sent a pulse to the drive which executed a few blocks, then pulsed back to the PLC etc., etc. to the end.
Worked pretty keen.
I assume this could this be done with Mach3 ?
Also, configure the SAW slide as a s&d spindle (scale accordingly). Then have FRO for it independantly of the Feeder FRO. ?
Thanks,
Russ
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Russ ALL mach3 axis are tied together for the FRO. The Spindle function cannot drive an axis.
Mach3's Gcode does NOT have an interupt as per say. IT can only follow where the G code takes it. Being it does NOT do conditional it is very limited for general Motion control operations.
The way I see it would have to run (dependably) Is the operator inputs the length of part and Material. The Program then calculates all the parameters such as Cycles per section and sections per material length then UPDATES the Gocde Vars that drive the MOVE then Cut G code loop.
That way G code controls the Motion NOT CB and there would be few if any problems.
Normally Mach3 makes a POOR PLC as there is no easy way to control the CB threads to keep them in time sync. AND you cannot control an axis directly through CB it has to Move OUT to a G code function thread to be able to move an axis.
You may be able to pull it off with a PLUGIN but that is another story.
(;-) TP
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ONE last word of warning, MACH3 has a NASTY safety BUG in CB macros. IF the Macro is in the middle of a loop controlling motion AND you ESTOP then clear the problem then RESET mach will resume and RUN the motion loop stored in CB.
When in Estop ALL macro threads "should" be closed/cancelled BUT they are not. (;-)
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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RUSS are you retrofitting this machine or do you have a choice of design for the feed section??
(;-) TP
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The original saw was built about 40 years ago and is all pneumatic with roller limit switches activated by the various slides.
No retro, choice of design.
I would like to build another very similar but with an NC feeder for precision as well as quick easy changeover between product runs.
Maybe also NC the SAW slide to have custom feedrates for various material types and thickness. (heck, maybe a VFD for the saw motor too, but the surface speed seldom varies)
The Mach route is looking iffy. This has to be pretty bulletproof, reliable and above all SAFE.
Thanks,
Russ
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IF you used a drive roller feed OR continuous rack and pinion it would be fairly simple to bar feed. Simply run the Gcode cycle till it runs out of barstock then reload.
AS long as you drive the Motion in straight Gcode it will be safe. As all the safeties of mach3 will work fine. You can even drive safety light curtains to keep hands away.
Create a genearic cut program using #vars for the cut variables Bar Feed and cut feed.
M501 (open Clamps for stock entry and reset Z axis to Zero
G1 Z#500 F#502 (barfeed)
G4P0 (restart the buffer for QUICK stops)
G1 X#503 F#504 (cut the stock)
G4P0
G0 X0.000 (retract saw)
M500 (Checks the state of the Prox switch IF not then cycle the barfeeder1 cut cycle)
The Macros on the screenset will program the #vars then turn control over to the Gcode side of MACh3 for the motion control. It will EVEN create the custom CUT file based on the preset paramaters ready for the machine to cut.
I have USED this approach before and trust it.
Axis feed the Cut axis to control Feedrate.
Same with Barfeed
There is always a way, MAYBE (;-) TP
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This approach would work fine I believe as best as I can test it here AND be safe for the Machine and OP.
Screen macro programs the part cut size (length and width) and feedrates of feed and barfeed updates #vars Verifies that the #vars are filled before posting Gcode for the part as a safety.
M501 (open Clamps for Bar Feed , verify saw and coolant ON else stop and error to OP)
G1 Z#500 F#502 (barfeed)
G4P0 (restart the buffer for QUICK stops)
G1 X#503 F#504 (cut the stock)
G4P0 (restart the buffer for quick stops)
G0 X0.000 (retract saw)
M500 (Eject part , Checks the state of the Prox switch IF not then Continue Else STOP AND Flash a full size page LED to get their attention(;-) Limit switch
Will stop machine IF part size is shorter than clamp length (safety) )
M47 (repeat from line#1)
You can EVEN add a running total parts counter with a reset button (;-)
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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Russ here is an example I am working on. It has all the features you asked for including an Individual FRO for Cut feed and Bar Feed. It is also a SAFE design.
It will require a continuous bar feeder though either roller or R&P.
(;-) TP
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AN ADDED Feature will be USING the tool table and Tool change to STORE all your material sizes and make changes to material setup as a tool change.
Look in the tool table select the material by description and load (;-)
You can also PRINT the Material Table (tool) to a file for reveiw OR to a printer.
I use that trick in plasma screens(;-)
(;-) That feature is FREE (;-), (;-) TP
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Nice features TP !
This saw will primarily be for tubing/round stock.
The clamps will accept material 0.125" to 1.25" dia. X 5.5" wide (flat group of rounds) with no modification. All products fall within this range. The "Part Width" would not change here as all "groups" are nearly the same.
The feed mechanism HAS to be within +/- 0.001". Thats why I chose the ballscrew.
ROller feed, I understand but seems it would only work well cutting individual rounds with contoured rolls for each product, of which there are possibly 100. Not sure of the precision achieveable with the roller type feed either. ? ? Could it maintain this tolerance ?
My minds eye can not see how a R&P set up is continuous (like a roller). Please explain.
Part lengths vary from 0.500" to 30.000" of which there are well over 100. I like the tool table idea !
Keep in mind, some of the material is thin walled and quite fragile, clamp pressures are carefully adjusted for each run.
Could two horizontally mounted, vertically opposed feed rollers consistantly and accurately feen a flat group ? It would be EXCELLENT if this would work well WITHOUT having to change feed rolls for each stock OD. Rubber, or urethane covered rolls might be OK but they will be exposed to cutting fluid so they might become slick. Accel and decell is always an issue, especially whith heavier, longer stock.
The reason I wanted to retract the feed screw fully, then feed short parts incrementally was to wear the screw evenly from end to end.
Otherwise, several hundred thousand cycles in one spot ....you know.
I also think I have Mach3 and a PLC working together (in sim) with 1 macro and an OEM trigger. More on that later, maybe.
Thanks T,
Russ
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What I meant by the R&P was a FULL length R&P the maximum length of the Material stock Most stock comes in 20-24' lengths. You will use the full stroke of the R&P each load. With R&P you have an end clamp to grab the material. Then it is a continuous PUSH until you run OUT of stock.
I have a running screenset now AND I have cut you over 962 pieces 2" long(;-)
It has MORE features such as a material table to select Material From(tool table) That YOU can edit on the fly if needed. When you select the Number it presets the CUT parameters such as Materail Desc /type , Width of stock, Cut Feedrate, ETC. Then creates a custom CUTFILE just for that application and loads the system ready to cut.
You can FRO the CUT Feedrate OR the BarFeed Feddrate ON THE FLY.
It has a Parts counter both Num of parts, Num of CUT parts and Num of Parts to go.
It also has a Stop "Reload Stock" Flashy LED that you cannot ignore, it is a FULL page large and VERY blinky. (;-)
Make have to build a new saw now(;-)
(;-) TP
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The Added Beauty is ALL motion CUT and BarFeed is done in Direct G CODE NO CB macro to control motion. So you have FULL machine safetys to rely on. AND you have IMEDIATE STOP if needed. SO far so Good.
(;-) TP
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Nice features TP !
The feed mechanism HAS to be within +/- 0.001". Thats why I chose the ballscrew.
Not sure of the precision achieveable with the roller type feed either. ? ? Could it maintain this tolerance ?
Could two horizontally mounted, vertically opposed feed rollers consistantly and accurately feen a flat group ? It would be EXCELLENT if this would work well WITHOUT having to change feed rolls for each stock OD. Rubber, or urethane covered rolls might be OK but they will be exposed to cutting fluid so they might become slick. Accel and decell is always an issue, especially whith heavier, longer stock.
The reason I wanted to retract the feed screw fully, then feed short parts incrementally was to wear the screw evenly from end to end.
Otherwise, several hundred thousand cycles in one spot ....you know.
I also think I have Mach3 and a PLC working together (in sim) with 1 macro and an OEM trigger. More on that later, maybe.
Thanks T,
Russ
Hey TP,
After quite some deliberation with my group, it is decided that we must use the clamp and push method with a ballscrew (for precision) as previously described.
The screw will only be about 30" long so it will retract and regrip the material numerous times per stick ... all of which vary in length.
I have a sample of PLC running with Mach where Mach Feedholds and sends a pulse to the PLC (three pneumatic clamps and the ejector), then PLC sends a pulse to resume Mach ... and so on. This seems to work OK.
What I would like is your FRO's, Tool (part) table as well as a direct length entry DRO for custom cuts.
What's your $ rate ?
Where in the world are ya ?
Thanks,
Russ
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Hey over,
I did a cut to length and variable length material feeder screen set called "CNC Saw" under finished screens that does alot of what you wanting,
about several years ago now....
scott
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Hi Poppa,
I saw that project when you posted it. Really nice !
It does have partly what I am needing. My approach is a bit different but I feel sure that thic could be adapted. (with help, of course :) )
I will post a "Step by Step" of what we are wanting a little later.
I am having trouble with the Brain now, it won't seem to load. Any idea ? ? ?
Thanks,
Russ
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Russ IF Scott can do what you need please go with him. IF not then I will help you as much as needed.
I am retired and do not want to compete with people making a living from screenwork, programming, etc.
I help anyone or small shops with CNC stuff but do NOT compete for business. It would not be fair.
(;-) TP
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Hi TP, thanks for coming back !
What you have is really cool. But, there are several physical parameters that I cannot change.
You have done MOST of what I need.
The main thing that is different is:
The feed screw is 36" stroke w/ clamp and "End of Matl." sensor.
Stock lengths are various and unknown.
I'll get a complete breakdown of the desired operation and we can go from there.
Thanks again T,
Russ
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Russ IF Scott can do what you need please go with him. IF not then I will help you as much as needed.
I am retired and do not want to compete with people making a living from screenwork, programming, etc.
I help anyone or small shops with CNC stuff but do NOT compete for business. It would not be fair.
I seemed to have inadvertently stepped on a nerve wasn't meaning to Terry.....
Further, I was NOT offering to do his job for pay, was just trying to help the user community, 99.999% of everything I post here.
Is and has been for free to help users, and has been that way for years.
I only charge someone when they want a project done to make income with. If it is for personal non-commercial use,
and IF, I have the time, and the solution is not deeply involved. I usually post a solution for that (or it something I think is cool).
I will bow out of this thread, Terry had it well under control, and I was just adding a 2 cent comment.
P.S. After re-reading what he is saying and wanting to do. I think given some of his critical requirements that M3 can't do, or do well.
I would go with a PLC (with a motion card(s) depending on number of axis). You could spend more money on buying a compatible HMI,
BUT, you could use M3 as a Cheap HMI, that sits on top of the PLC and is just the UI for the PLC over TCP modbus.
Terry, BTW: I STILL want one of your Grinder Wizards......... Please, Please, Please.... :)
Scott
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HIYA SCott no offense here, (;-) I was trying not to step on your toes. You have to make a living at this I do not. I respect all those trying to make a living THESE DAYS(;-) TIMES are tough out there.
AS Scott mentioned WHEN you have to drop back inside Mach3 CB do do the job you are better off going the PLC route as MACH CB is the pitts when trying to make Macros do motion control AND keep them synced together. YES it can be done in mach CB BUT there is no garrantee that it is trustworthy(;-)
SCOTT I thought I sent you a copy a while back ???? BUT then looking at it all I have is the screenset for it. I can convert it over to a Wizard for you or can send the screenset?? YOUR choice (;-) Maybe something there that can be of help for you down the road. AND once again you are welcome to anything that I may have on hand or can create for yous guys. I have more to add to the MACH TOOL BOX when I get time.
I was thinking creating a MASTER WIZARD that could use all the current wizards to use for conversational programing to create an entire program BUT that may step on Brian's toes with the NFWs.
Scott please let me know what form or both? that you want the grinder stuff in.
(;-) TP
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grinder screen set or wizard is fine, which ever you have done, and easist to send.
send to my hughesnet email if you would.....
thanks!! and LOVE your work, it REALLY looks good!!!
Scot
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Scott I sent it to you it is on it's way .
Good Hearing from You, (;-) TP
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IF anyone NEEDS professional programming Help OR hardware help such as Scott provides PLEASE consider him for your PROJECT as he is VERY well qualified to do MACH3 magic (;-).
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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Hey Thanks for the plug!
BTW: Ddi you send that wizard yet, havent seen it yet......... if so, can you resend?
satelite sometimes goes into space......
scott
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Yep I have sentt it twice so far maybe 3 times is the charm. DID you check your Email trash bin?
On it's way again, (;-) TP
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Hey TP,
Other project pushed this one aside for a spell.
I did get Mach to work with a plc doing repeditive clamp-feed-unclamp-retract and so on. Very basic though.
Am curious about the guts of your screen, care to share it ?
PM me with the billing if you wish.
Thanks TP,
Russ
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Hey TP,
Am curious about the guts of your screen, care to share it ?
Thanks TP,
Russ
Recon not ..... but, thanks anyway TP :)
Russ
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HIYA RUSS, sorry dude I missed this one . What screen do you want ?
(;-) TP