Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: K_Labs on May 19, 2012, 04:41:55 PM
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Hey every1 super new to this stuff but not new to running CNC's . I have a couple omniturns and I have always wanted a mill. I found a deal that was hard to pass up so I got one. I have just aquired a Kasuga mill with a bandit control and QuickDraw tool changer. The bandit has got to go. I tried to power it up but no dice. The control turns on but no "bright light" display. A few LEDs light up inside the control and the fan turns on. If I hit the breaker in the back the reset light turns on and the reload light also.
It has 3 summit dana DC servo motors 90V 74A 1430RPM. I couldn't get the spindle to start maybe I'm doing something wrong. I need to break out the volt meter and test the wires to the motor. Someone at the machine dealer pinched and most likely severed the cable with a forklift.
Anyhow I want to run a new control on here w/ Mach 3. I have no clue where to start any and all help is much appreciated. I was going to try and test the servo motors but I can't get the control to do anything.
Are my servo motors good enough for what I plan to do. I want to have an expandable setup and run a 4th axis on it. I have a old HAAS SRT laying around and I was wondering if I got the plug for it and wired it into my control would Mach 3 run it?
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What are my BOB and motion controller options? I also want a VFD but again no idea which one to get it has a 5 HP 3 phase motor 220V
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Take a look at MachMotion equipment; www.machmotion.com. They build CNC machines and sell retrofit kits. The mill you have is a fairly solid mill as I recall. If the motors and amps are OK, you can install a controller and control panel. You will need newer differential encoders, but the limit switches and ref switches are probably good to go. Machmotion can advise you on a VFD, as they sell several different sizes.
The Bandit control is from the early 1980's, and was a low end control then. Also, you need to spec out the amps, to know if they will work with a newer controller. To end up with a reliable machine, I would go with an external controller, and bypass the parallel port type of installation.
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There are a few controllers on the market now that can output to analogue amplifiers, a few I know are
Kflop with Kanalog
CSMIO/IP-A
DSPMC
Galil
They range in price, I think in the order I have listed. I have no experience with any but as soon as threading on a lathe is done I will be buying either the CSMIO/IP-A or possibly the CSMIO/IP-S (step/dir model) as they seem to have very good specs/price.
Can you provide more info about the rotary table such as what kind of motor/drive it has, if an all in one unit what kind of signal input does it require.
Hood
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I am not really looking to buy a set to go controller because it seems like if I get a cheap one it's just a plain old computer in a fancy case. So if I get one that is expensive I just get a fancier case and a better computer. Couldn't I just use a computer I have laying around and buy the BOB's and motion contollers. The main reason I want to do this is so I can actually learn the in's and out's of the machine. I really would like to kinda DIY the easy stuff.
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http://www.rotaryeng.net/Nc-Mill-How-To.html
I really like this guys setup. He is running ECM2
Is there any reason I can't copy his and run Mach?
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Hood the 4th axis has a 1.5hp DC Servo motor. Still trying to figure out the signal.
The manual says positioning of the platter is accOmplished through a specially ground heat treated self locking worm and worm gear set. The worm is connected to a 1.5 HP DC servo motor through a 1.5:1 ratio timing belt
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http://www.rotaryeng.net/Nc-Mill-How-To.html
I really like this guys setup. He is running ECM2
Is there any reason I can't copy his and run Mach?
You cant copy it exactly as he is using the mesa cards which Mach doesnt have a plugin for. It is supposed to be in the pipeline but when it will be done is anyones guess.
That being said there are the options I mentioned earlierwhich would be a similar kind of setup. Of course you could always go with EMC2, some seem to like it but as I have never tried it I cant comment.
Your reasoning on the kit V DIY route is the way I think, not only can you do it cheaper you can do it exactly how you want. That said though some people dont have the will or want to go that route and thats where the kits come in.
On the rotary, do you have a pdf of the manual you could attach?
Hood
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I don't have a PDF but I can scan it and get it on here. I have personally never used Mach but I saw the video with the DIY edgefinder and tool locator has me sold.
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Ok that would be good.
Hood
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I am not sure about the bandit control but the tool changer has a AUTO LOCK and MANUAL toggle switch so I'm guessing it can be controlled with Mach. The manual is taking a long time to scan in as it has a lot of pages. Is there anything specific I should post here? I can put the cover and the index and let me know what section to upload.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/Cover001.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/PG2001.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/PG3001.jpg)
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Page 10 may hold some clues.
Hood
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(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/PG13001.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/pg14001-1.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/PG15001.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/pg16001.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/pg17001.jpg)
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It would seem simple enough to operate, just one input and one output to/from Mach and you are set.
I am presuming the control box can be set to the divisions you require?
Hood
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I think I want to go with Kflop with Kanalog to have the rigid tapping capability. I noticed there is a mach3 plugin for it when I did a google search.
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I believe it does do rigid tapping, no experience with it but I am sure there will be people here who can help if you do use one, failing that I think there is a Yahoo group.
Hood
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So do I also need the Kmotion BOB? Also which cables do I use? My servo motor shaft is .625 and I plan on mounting 4 or 5 encoders with shielded cat 5 is that sufficient or do I need a thicker gauge? X Y Z 4th axis and the spindle.
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I dont think you will need the BOB as you will be needing the Kanalog board for the Kflop to fit on and I think the Kanalog acts as a bob. You would be best doing a bit of research on the Kflop/Kanalog as from the looks I have had it is one of the more complex solutions requiring C programming if wanting more than the basics. I have heard the guy that makes the Kflop is very helpful and will do a lot for you or at least help you but again no experience so you would have to do some research.
Do your motors have encoders already or are they resolvers?
Cat5 should be ok but make sure it is not solid core conductors as it will tend to crack with flexing if it is.
Hood
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I have no idea if they have encoders or resolvers. Would a pic help? My brother has some basic C progamming knowledge so I should be ok with that. Is it a one time deal for setup and then it's good to go?
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo47.jpg)
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Ok so it seems Ebay has answered my question. I found one for sale with a very similar part #. I have a resolver.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUMMIT-DANA-216-330-33-4050D-2-DC-SERVO-MOTOR-1430RPM-/370367757128?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563ba37b48
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It will just be for setting up of new things that you will need the programming I would imagine.
The specs of that motor on eBay make more sense, the 74Amps you mentioned before seemed very high but that one says 7.4A.
It seems likely that you have a resolver but having said that it may still be the case that your motor has an encoder if the part number is not the same, usually its only one letter that is different in the part number.
Hood
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So how would I tell if I had a encoder?
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Easy way is to lift off the end cap and see, encoders nearly always look totally different from resolvers. If you take a pic and post it I may be able to say.
Hood
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Right on. I'll get a pic up ASAP. Hey I was wondering can I get Mach3 to run on windows 7? I want to have it on my computer with bobcad. Or is it a bad idea? Would a dedicated comp be better?
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I see there is a whole section about running mach on vista and 7 so nvm on that question. Here are the pics and one of the top of my tool changer/drawbar. It looks like I won't be able to run an encoder on top of that as it probably isn't always engaged.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo48.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo50.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo51.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo52.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo49.jpg)
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Mach should run fine on W7, even 64bit when using an external device.
Pics dont really show anything but it is almost a certainty that it is a resolver as they are often geared with antibacklash gears like that, then again I have seen some encoders geared like that..
Hood
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Either way, this should be a be a very capable machine when it's sorted out. Do keep us informed :)
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I'm ready to star tearing into it but I don't really know where to start should I gut it all but the spindle motor wires and servo motor wires?
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If you are using the existing drives etc then I would not touch too much of the wiring as likely you will be able just to wire it in to your external controller.
Hood
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So I bought the KFlop Kanalog and Snap Amp but it only puts out 80V and my motors r 90V. Tom said it will still work but my max rpm will be lower.
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Why are you buying the SnapAmp? I thought you were using the original amps?
Hood
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I didn't know I could I guess I will cancel the snap amp
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That was the reason you were getting the Kanalog, if you needed to use different amps/drives because yours were knackered then it would likely be more sensible to go with Step/Dir capable drives and that way your options of controller would be much greater, you could even have used the parallel port if you wished although personally I would use a controller.
If your original amps are working fine then its a much simpler retrofit as all the wiring for that side of things is intact and you will just need to reroute the wiring that went to the original controller to the new controller (Kflop/Kanalog or whatever you will use)
Hood
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Thanks for the heads up and fast response u just saved me $400
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Do you have wiring diags for the mill?
I am wondering if the resolvers go to the control or the amps? I think they will likely go to the amps and if so I am wondering if there is an output on the amps that put out ttl compatible signals. If there is then they would have gone to the control and that would mean you wouldnt need encoders as the amps have already converted the resolver signals into encoder equivalent signals.
Do you have a make/model number of the amps that are in the machine?, maybe a manual can be found if you dont have one already.
Hood
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I don't have a manual I'd really like to have one. I can get more info when I get into work tomorrow.
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That would be good, I have quite a lot of manuals downloaded but mainly for AC amps/drives so likely wont have what you need but often a search can bring up the relevant manual, fingers crossed :)
Hood
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So do I need a bandit controller manual?
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No not really, the bandit manual may give some insight into the connections that are present but the most beneficial would be a manual for the amps. Having said that if you did have the bandit manual, technical connection type, not programming, then it wouldnt be a bad thing.
Hood
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I think I may have found something it's not the same machine but they use the same control.
http://www.shadowcnc.com/shadowmanual.htm
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Looking at that seems to suggest the Bandit controller wants encoder inputs and I never saw any mention of resolver. That would lead me to believe that if your motors do have resolvers (seems likely ) then the amps have an encoder signal output. If that is the case then you will probably not need to fit additional encoders.
Getting the model and make of amps would likely let us know for sure.
Hood
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I'll take pics of all 3 panels and u would probably be able to tell me where the amps r located
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So I'm guessing the Amps are in the first photo but I'm not sure.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo53.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo54.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo55.jpg)
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This may help.
http://www.contraves-drives.com/pdf/M502001_d.pdf
(;-) TP
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Yes the NC400s are your Amps. Had NC700s on the Beaver NC5 and they drove me daft with the whistle from them when enabled, hope the 400's are not the same ;D
Terry has linked to a pdf for them so will have a look in a bit and see what signals they have.
Hood
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Had a quick look and it seems that the signal the NC400s want from the motors is a tach signal to determine the speed of the motor. That then brings up the question of whether its a resolver or encoder that is on the motors as the previous controller info you posted seems to suggest that the control only wants encoder inputs.
Really I think you will need to take off the cover from the end of a motor and see if you can find out if its a resolver or encoder there.
Hood
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I took the 4 screws off the top of the motor and it didn't come off. I don't know where to go from there. Should I remove the other 4 that the cables hook into?
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo1-1.jpg)
Now that you mention it I did see this when I was taking those pics yesterday.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo-3.jpg)
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got the cover off with some wiggling
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo2-2.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo3-2.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo4-2.jpg)
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Looks like the bigger one in the middle is a Tach and the other one to the side is a resolver. Can you trace where the wires from the resolver go to? The Tach wires will go to the NC400's.
Going to be a PITA to fit an encoder I think.
Hood
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Well that is the quill servo for my Z and that should be a piece of cake cuz it protudes a bit at the past the pulley. The X and Y have me worried. So maybe for those I could run a 1:1 ratio pulley off of the ball screws to a encoder? Or would that be inaccurate? I'll trace the resolver wire tomorrow morning
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Yes you could run a pulley or it may even be possible to put the encoder on the opposite end of the ballscrew.
Hood
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So I just traced the wire back to the bandit control it has 7 wires total per resolver and it goes into a circuit board labeled J6
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I wonder if that circuit board could be a resolver to ttl converter, would be good if it was.
Do you have a pic of it?
Any other info on the board itself?
Are there wires coming out of that board and going into the terminals on the control? if so how many and what terminals?
Hood
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(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo5-2.jpg)
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J6 has a set of wires that goes to J1 and the wires that come in from the resolver on J6 are for x y and z. I will have some more pics up soon
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(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo6-2.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo7-1.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo8-2.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo9-2.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo10-2.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo11-2.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo12-2.jpg)
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So which encoders should I pick up? I was doing some reading and it looks like I want Rotary Encoders but I haven't a clue which ones to buy.
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Pics dont really help I am afraid, would really need a manual on the specific model of control you have to see what boards are what. I was in hopes there was a converter for the reolver signals but cant say if there is or not.
You can buy such a board but think they are about $150 a piece and probably end up not giving as good resolution as an encoder could.
For an encoder you are probably wanting something in the 2000 line range (8000 pulses per rev) and it is a 5v ttl incremental encoder that you want. Preferrably one that has a line driver incorporated so that you have differential signals out, reason for that is it is much more noise imune than single ended signals. Not sure if the Kflop/Kanalog takes differential signals though so if it doesnt then you would need a line receiver as well.
Hood
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I just posted on Dynomotion yahoo group and this is the info I got.
Re: [DynoMotion] What encoder do I use for KFlop?
Yes Kanalog has differential encoder inputs on JP1 and JP2. 16 differential signal inputs (32 screw terminals) which is enough for 8 encoder's worth of A B signals.
Kanalog converts the differential signals to LVTTL signals and exports them to KFLOPS single ended encoder inputs.
TK
From: Michael Niksch <michaelniksch@...>
To: "DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com" <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [DynoMotion] What encoder do I use for KFlop?
The Kanalog board has provision for differential encoders.8
On May 28, 2012, at 2:46 PM, "mattbsemail" <mattbsemail@...> wrote:
Does the Kflop/Kanalog take differential signals?
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I found this. What do u think? It looks very similar to my board in the control that the resolvers plug into
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RESOLVER-DC-MOTOR-LOGIC-BOARD-FOR-BANDIT-3-CONTROL-/130500735440?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item1e627331d0#ht_921wt_1163
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Resolver to Quadrature Converter? Is this what u were talking about earlier?
http://pico-systems.com/resolver.html
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Thats good that the Kanalog can take differential signalling, in my opinion all should be like that, some are starting to see the benefits but its slow to catch on.
Are there any clues to the output of that board? Any labels of what the output signals are, they may well be ttl outputs.
If you have a scope it may be possible for you to test it out.
What model of Bandit control do you have? It might help finding out information, although that may be hard to come by on such a control.
Hood
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I am unfamiliar with how to test for a signal. I was wondering how much of the bandit will I be using because up until now it's just been a paper weight. Also my spindle motor isn't turning on. I have my work cut out for me.
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What you would need to do is test each output of that board as you turned the motor, if indeed there is such outputs, cant really see much from the pics. Are there any labels on the pins suggesting what they may be?
Really you wouldnt be using any of the Bandit unless this board does do the resolver to ttl conversion, if it does then it would hopefully be possible to use that instead of getting encoders. All other boards will be tossed I would think. Spindle control would be from the Kanalog to your spindle drive and likewise axis control from Kanalog to the axis drives.
Hood
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IF I remember correctly the Kflop stuf can handle resolvers directly.
You may want to give TOM a call or email him to verify.
(;-) TP
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Will do
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Received the boards today. I tore apart an old comp and mounted it in there.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo13-2.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo15-1.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo14-2.jpg)
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I honestly don't know what to ask about the resolvers and KFlop.
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I have looked at the web page and dont see anything that suggests they do but to make sure you could just ask them if the Kanalog will accept resolver input.
Hood
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Here is my reply from Tom Re: [DynoMotion] Kanalog/KFlop resolver input?
Re: [DynoMotion] Kanalog/KFlop resolver input?
Hi Matt,
KFLOP+Kanalog does have a resolver input mode. If you feed in the resolver sine/cosine outputs into two Kanalog DACS it will compute the atan and track the position. Resolvers are not usually as linear, precise, and straightforward as optical encoders.
Regards
TK
From: mattbsemail <mattbsemail@...>
To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:08 AM
Subject: [DynoMotion] Kanalog/KFlop resolver input?
Does it accept resolver input ?
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Might be worth trying but sounds from the reply that it does not work that great but you dont have anything to lose by trying :)
Regarding the bandit board that takes in the resolver signals, are there any markings or labels on the output of it, that may hold a clue as to what it actually does.
Hood.
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It says axis on the front right under the JP6 cable that goes to jp1. I found that the power supply is bad on the bandit control. I was wondering if I could use a computer power supply instead.
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A computer supply may be ok, just depends the voltages you need. Computer supplies have 3.3, 5 and 12v. To use a computers supply you would need to connect the power good signal wire to a gnd wire or it will not start. The Power Good wire is green on the atx connector and there is a Gnd (Black) wire right next to it, all you need is to jumper a wire between them.
Hood
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Doesn't sound like it will work then my 24v is good but my 120 is dead
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120v? Is that for the amplifiers?
Hood
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I have my power from the wall 110 to a distribution block that goes to a power converter and makes 24V then the other wires go to a transformer or something power goes in and no power comes out of it.
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Ok so Mach3 is installed Kmotion is installed. My comp recognized the board after a massive brain fart. Everything looks good now where do I go from here? Should I unhook all of the wires from the bandit control (I'll label them just in case) remove it and attempt to wire it into my KFlop/KAnalog?
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YES the KFLOP will accept Resolvers.
(;-) TP
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OK well I have quit a bit of stuff now where do I start? I have been reading a bit of the manual for my NC400's. I power up the panel and I'm not getting any power to them. Do they require the bandit to be on as well?
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Is there any power to the power supply for the NC400'S? If there is is there any DC output from the power supply?
Hood
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Trend litely and double check everything from here on out less you let PUFF the smoke dragon out of his cave(;-)
You need to layout the entire BANDIT Wiring schematic and study it well. IF you do not understand what you are looking at then take the time to LEARN what you need to know BEFORE you hack into the wiring.
Only then will you KNOW where to interface the Kflop into the scheme of the bandit drives.etc.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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Yea I'm going at it with my brothers help as he knows a lot more about the computer side of things and electronics. I'm not in a big rush and we might even wind up buying a Fadal b4 this project is done but that's just wishful thinking.
Ok so I need to figure out wiring, chase down the power issue, and figure out why my spindle motor doesn't kick on.
On a side note the QuickDraw Tool changer tool carousel works perfectly. I haven't hooked up air pressure to it because I don't know how much it requires and I don't want to over pressure it.
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So I've seen alot of people with this going on. Is it possible for me to do this as well with my setup? Is that the style of encoder I would want to buy? I saw the webpage for these encoders b4 but I lost it. When I was browsing I noticed they have multiple size bushings you can use for different shafts.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221010370287?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649&afsrc=1#ht_562wt_1139
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You are probably talking about the AMT encoders. http://www.amtencoder.com/Product/AMT103
Never used them as my motors already have encoders fitted so cant say from personal experience but have heard people say they are reasonable.
Hood
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Ok so for the spindle motor I have the encoder figured out but the x and y have me stumped any ideas? They r directly mounted W/ a coupler and a keyway.
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Ok So I'm reading the contraves-drives pdf and I was wondering what does signal mean?
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Also on page 4-9 what does ARM + ARM- mean?
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Not sure on the signal, depends where you are reading it from but I am thinking likely it is the +-10v signal from the controller.
The Arm+ - will be the motors main wires, ie the armature wires.
Hood
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Thank u Hood
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So I traced the power wires from my Spindle motor to a panel in the back of the machine. There r 3 red wires with a fuses coming into the box and 3 black wires right next to them going up to the motor. There is also a larger grey shielding with multiple wires going into the 1st panel where the main power switch is. U can see the 3 black wires at the very bottom of the pic
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo53.jpg)
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The volts going into the panel are very low 12 -16 ish. I guess that entire panel is some sort of amplifier for the motor and it probably doesn't power on because the bandit isn't on? I'll trace the grey shielding wires to see where they go tomorrow.
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That will be the spindle drive, basically a VFD if the motor is AC 3 phase.
Hood
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Oh no way! I thought I was gonna have to buy one of those. I have a new power supply on the way for the bandit control so I can see what works and what doesn't.
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Try and find a make a model on it and you may be able to get a manual.
Hood
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Well about the only info I found so far is on a white card that says Lovejoy
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I found their site but no info on that product. I just sent them an email hopefully they will be able to hook me up with a manual. http://www.lovejoy-inc.com/resources/
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo21-1.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo22-1.jpg)
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Based on the way it is wired it looks alot like AC 3 phase. I'll take a pic of it tomorrow morning as soon as I get to work.
The power supply arrived today and it's not the right one. However I now have a spare 24VDC power supply and it was only $20.
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Oh so I have a status report on the bandit. I took the cover off the top and depressed a switch next to the 115/230 selector switch. It appears to be a breaker of some sort. I have a red Reload light come on and a red Reset light also that is in the front of the panel. Inside the control there are 2 cards that have led's one card has 6 led's and that has the 3 XYZ led's lit up under the word Null. The other card has a single red led that is lit up that I haven't determined what it is yet.
I have done further testing of the power supply. There is power coming out of 4 of the 6 leads on the transformer. I'll have to verify what letters and the Volts coming out of them. I can't remember off the top of my head.
So anyhow I found a power supply for a bandit on ebay. It's kinda pricey and I was wondering could I just replace my transformer and get it to work? If I choose to buy the one on ebay are bandit power supplies interchangeable? It looks like an older version of the power supply I currently have. My transformer is a Power One with 4 wires going in and 6 coming out. I believe the ones going out are A AT A B BT B the wires going in are 1 2 3 4. I really need some guidance here as I have no knowledge of what transformer to buy to replace it. I understand a little bit there is a chart on the back of it that tells me the way it's wired and what Volts and Amps it will output based on the different configuration. Any help, insight, or info would be greatly appreciated.
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Afraid you would need to find someone who knows the bandit controller to answer that question.
Hood
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So I actually talked to the guy who was supposed to work on the machine b4 we bought it. He filled me in on alot of good information. It is the Bandit 3 control and apparently that control won't work unless u have power going to everything. So basically I turned on the bandit turned on the main power switch and there are 2 buttons on the power knee on and off. Let's just say I feel a bit silly. So I power on the knee and hit the switch for my spindle motor and I can hear the motor starter engage. Still no display on the bandit but it's progress.
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On page 5 the picture of the tach and resolver which is which? I found a place that has a drop in replacement encoder it takes the spot of the old resolver. http://www.quantumdev.com/products/optical_encoders/qd110.html
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Resolver was the geared one.
Hood
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So alot of progress was made today! I talked to John again and I was able to get all the displays to light up with his guidance and expert troubleshooting. Tomorrow I will be putting in a new power supply I have laying around and more tests to come. He suggested we sort out the bugs b4 I start the control swap. I'm excited and will keep u guys posted.
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So I found the short and pulled the wire now my power supply is getting 24V to the bandit and it powers up. Now my issue is that the servo motors are running away. They are not hooked up to the ball screws so I wouldn't crash. I was told it has something to do with the NC400. Any thoughts? I already checked the fuses on that panel are at least the 5 I could see and they are all good.
I still have no idea where that wire goes but I'll have to chase it down tomorrow.
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http://www.contraves-drives.com/pdf/M502001_d.pdf
So I found the answer but I don't know what it means.
Page 7-2 #4 Wherre it says: A runaway condition is cause for close scruting of polarities.
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The tach, armature, and or other polarities could be wired backwards. Start with one axis at a time. Most of the first runs on an axis is done at a slow motion settings.
Check the limit switches and E-stop are working correctly. Just for safety reasons.
Translation- If the tach or motor is wired backwards, the slide will take off until e-stop or limit switch is tripped. Check the manual for which wires to swap.
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Well funny u should mention that because that wire that was shorting was to the Z limit switch and it was triggered. Once I manually move the Z off the limit switch my short was gone and the power supply was fine.
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I was wondering... If I only need the NC400 amps for 100VDC for the servos could I just bypass the rest? It seems that my runaway problem is due to the 15Vdc + and 15Vdc-
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What is the +- 15v powering?
Hood
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I have no idea it's what the guy who has been helping me was telling me to look for. I tested the terminal strips for each axis. The X Y and Z each have 2 wires w/2 inside of each wire for a total of 4 wires. Each terminal strip has 1 wire on 1&3 and the other wire on 4&5. So anyways I tested the voltage and I was getting 2.4Vdc for 1&3 on X and -1.4Vdc for 4&5 Z was almost the same just with some variation in the voltage but minimal. However the Y has 2.4Vdc on 1&3 and 1.4Vdc on 4&5. So X is +V and then -V, Y is +V and +V then, Z is +V and -V. Could that be my problem?
On page 5 the pic with the NC400 on it. It's the wires that go into the white terminal strip. The single one in the back.
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What exactly am I using the Amp for? 100Vdc only or do I still need tach input?
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You will be using the amps to control the motors exactly as they are/were used. With the original setup the Bandit received the resplver signal from the motor which allowed it to know the position of the motor and thus it could send out a voltage to the amp to move the motor one way or the other. What you need for the Kanalog is an encoder signal so you need to replace the resolver with one but it will do just the same as the bandit did, ie monitor where the motor is and send out a voltage to the amp to make it move to where it is meant to be.
I would imagine your amp requires a tach signal so you will have to keep that.
Hood
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Ok so I figured out how to explain my previous post a little better:
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo-3.jpg)
That label is describing the terminal strip below.
Signal 1-6
1,2 X 2.25VDC
3,4 Y 2.13VDC
5,6 Z 2.39VDC
Tach 8-13
8,9 X -1.19VDC
10,11 Y 1.17VDC
12,13 Z -1.32VDC
Enable 14,15
-0.01
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Signal wires are where the control sends the +-10v to control the axis, it will depend on feedback and position as to what voltage is being sent.
Tach is the voltage from the tach and will be so many volts per 1000rpm, if the motor is stationary you sould not get any voltage between pairs.
Enable is a voltage from your control to enable the power stage of your drives, I would imagine it would be 24v but you would need to check the manual. You should not get anything there unless the control is powered up and in a ready state.
Hood
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When I power on everything the motors are all just running constantly. I'm wondering if it would be cheaper to maybe buy a better replacement instead of having them repaired. I saw some advanced motion control 12a8 4 for 400 and that would be enough for my x y z and 4th axis. What do u think? http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem;PdsSession=1c6123421380a47a1213e1a3fffc6293?itemId=130583622486&index=2&nav=SEARCH&nid=56905275030
http://www.artisan-scientific.com/info/Advanced_Motion_Control_12A8_Datasheet.pdf
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You really need to get things hooked up to the new controller before you can tell. It is very likely that the Bandit is screwed and thus your amps are reacting to signals from it.
Sad thing is you have resolvers on the motors so you will first have to replace them with encoders as although the Kanalog can take resolver signals the reply from Dynomotion on the effectiveness of resolvers didnt sound too promising.
The contraves amps are decent amps, I had the NC700's on the Beaver mill when I got it and the reason I went with different motors/drives was mainly because at that time (23 or 4 yrs back) there were not the options for devices that could control analogue amps and work with Mach. Things have changed and there are at least 4 options now, you have one of them so you should be fine. The only other thing that I disliked about the Contraves amps was they whistled loudly, it seems to be at a frequency that either you get driven daft by or you hardly hear it, I was the former.
You could hook up a battery box to the amps to test them out, what that entails is disconnecting the signal wires from the amps then hooking up a 9v battery that goes through a pot, you can then make sure the amp is enabled and then increase or decrease the battery voltage via the pot and the motor connected to that signal should react according to the voltage.
Hood
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I found some encoders but they r $230 a piece is that overkill. What is a pot?
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Potentiometer ?
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Yes pot is a potentiometer, basically you are just wanting to supply a voltage to the drives that you can vary from zero to 10v (or 9v if using a battery) to test them out. I made up a battery box a while back out of 2 x 9v batteries and a pot, this allowed me to get 0v at centre of pot rotation and -9v fully one way and +9v the other. That way I could test out the amp in both directions. I now use that amp on the spindle of a manual lathe. The headstock on that lathe was extremely noisy so I used a servo direct to the spindle to bypass the noisy gears and just use a pot for spindle speed.
The encoders for you is a problem as you require the tach for your amps. Most people go the route of using Step/Dir capable drives and thus they dont need the tach so can replace that with an encoder. As you have the original amps then you will need to keep the tach.If you can get a belt and pulley mounted on the shaft you could drive a cheaper encoder that way and still keep the tach on the other end or if you could mount the encoder on the opposite end of the ballscrew that would also work, if not then the encoder you found that is compatible with the resolver mounts may be the only way unless you wish to first try the resolver inputs on the Kanalog to see if they are any use.
Hood
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So I just went to Fry's electronics and bought 3 pots cuz they were so cheap and I didn't know which to buy 1k 10k and 50k ohms and a 9V
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Now how would I hook up the pot and 9V?
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Connect the -ve of the battery to the -ve signal input on the amp and also one side of the pot, run the +ve to the other end of the pot and take the wiper of the pot to the +ve signal of the amp, that should work :)
Hood
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Which pot should I use?
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Prob the 10K would be fine.
Hood
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Just a wee warning, you will likely get creep even with the pot set to min as there will still be mV getting through so dont leave the drive enabled and wander away if the motor is still hooked to the machine.
Hood
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so I have 3 prongs on the pot which is which? is the wiper the middle one?
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Thats correct :)
Hood
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none of the motors are connected to the ball screws but I will keep that in mind. So should I have purchased 2 9V batteries and connectors and hook one up the correct way and one up backwards?
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No one is fine, you can if you wish just reverse the signal connections to test the amp the opposite way. If you were going to be making up a battery box that would be used many times over the coming years for testing amps then it would be an advantage to make up a -9 to +9v box like I did but for one off testing I wouldnt bother.
Hood
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So I did what you said on the X axis. It worked like you explained there was some creep. It was almost stopped minor creep then medium pace and full on rapid. Now what? Should I test the rest of them in both directions?
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Yes wont harm testing them all. What that is showing is your Amp is fine and it is the Bandit control that is making the axis run away.
What you really need to do now is try and get encoders fitted then you can progress on to hooking things up to your new controller (Kflop/Kanalog/Mach)
Hood
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I wired it up differently and I have multi directional control from one side to the other now plus it will stop when i turn the knob to the middle with a little creep. Is this correct and I had it wired up wrong before?
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Not really a right or wrong way, the test was simply to see whether the amps were working as they should or not and it seems they are fine :)
Hood
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Yea I was able to hook it up one way and get CW rotation the reverse the polarities and get CCW on all 3.
Now I'm sort of stumped. I have 8 shielded wires going into the old control consisting of many more smaller wires inside there. I'm slowly labeling them all and removing them. I need to figure out what wires are going where and then maybe I'll understand it better.
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That will be all the I/O for things such as enables, coolant, limits etc.
Hood
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Oh good. Can u help me understand this a little better. I don't really know what goes to what. I realize where the encoders go other than that I am not sure where anything else goes. Is it possible to wire in my tool changer also? I am having trouble understanding JP6 and JP11.
http://dynomotion.com/Help/SchematicsKanalog/ConnectorsKanalog.htm
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Dont know anything about the Kanalog and not really going to study it in detail as I will be unlikely to ever use one I am afraid.
I can say however that JP6 says its analogue inputs and in Mach they would be used for things such as Feed Rate Override pots, Spindle Override pot etc in conjunction with a macropump or a Brain.
JP11 is the analogue outs and that is where your -10 +10 signals to your Amps connect to.
Tool changers and other I/O would have to be connected to the other locations (JP8, 13 and 15)
Hood
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Cool I understand more than I did b4. So now I'll hook up my signal wires and order my encoders today.
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So are my - & + 10V signal wires are controlled through a total of 2 wires per axis?
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Yes that is correct.
Hood
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I just found out my encoders have a 5 week lead time and cost $255 a pop. I think I might try to figure out something cheaper/faster. Any suggestions on encoders with similar features?
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How about just using the resolvers you already have. The Kflop WILL run resolvers (;-)
(;-) TP
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Not a bad idea would that limit my capabilities at all?
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Pulled the bandit just now after I labeled everything.
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I hooked up the signal wires to the KAnalog JP11. Z 0 & 1st ground Y 1 & 2nd ground X 2 & 3rd ground.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/K_Labs/photo56.jpg)
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I ordered encoders it's a 5 week wait time... I'm a week in.
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Ok so I finally got the encoders in back to the project
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We just picked up an old bandit control for just under $200 that wasn't setup for a tool changer so now I can see what wires are needed for the axis an what r for the tool changer and get some progress happening.
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I am new here,too.What you talk about is so interesting.
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Hey back again.... Took a extended break on the project because work got really busy. We managed to buy a VF2 in the mean time. Now I have some more free time and I want to pick up the project again. I just installed one of the encoders and it is working correctly. I have my signal wires on the board as well but I'm confused as to what else I need to get closer to the finish line. I have X Y and Z signal wires all coming out of a conduit along with a XE wire and I don't understand what it's for.
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OK so I'm aback at it again. Need to make adapters for my encoder shafts to fit the resolver gears. 1/8 on the encoder and 1/4 on the resolver gear. Is it possible to do away with the resolver and tach and just replace it with the encoder? Hood told me it all depends on whether or not the NC400s require a tach signal.
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I managed to find a NC400 manual in English. https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/25821-contraves-nc400-dc-servo-2.html