Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Katoh on March 20, 2012, 02:01:04 AM
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Colleagues
While on my lathe retrofit I started many moons ago, I have finally had time to put some electrical components together, and start testing circuitry. My first test was the Digispeed DC03 Homman Design, I have wired up as per schematics and literature available but for some reason I can not get the Relays to respond.
I must be missing something here.
I am using the Homman MB02 V6 Bob and have set the jumpers according to the schematic, and wiring as per schematic. Refer http://www.homanndesigns.com/pdfs/EN012_V1.pdf.
The board and the digispeed are both powered.
Does someone have these running and could they advise what settings they use in mach and how they have wired them.
Thanks
Katoh
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Hi Katoh,
The version of the engineering note you re looking at is version 1, the current version is V3. It shows a different setting as line 17 is used by the Chargepump.
http://www.homanndesigns.com/pdfs/EN012_V3.pdf
Cheers,
Peter.
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Man I hope this works ! its sending us nuts here in the capital !
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Hi peter
Sorry for the late response, I see on the updated schematic there is no Reverse wire to the VFD. How will the M3 and M4 work?
Thanks
Katoh
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Man I hope this works ! its sending us nuts here in the capital !
Yes well its my lathe, your mill and my new mill that ride on the balance of getting this going. Peter doesn't have the DC06 any more and the one on my router works flawlessly, but he assured me the DC03 was a lot better.
Katoh
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Just ordered some spare parts for us all . with a few of us up here using the same boards it might be handy .Thinking of traping peter and keeping him here for a few days . Lets build a trap !!!
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...there is no Reverse wire to the VFD. How will the M3 and M4 work?
I use a TECO FM-50 VFD on my lathe, and you can set it to either run forward by energizing FWD and reverse by energizing REV, or select forward/reverse by toggling REV (I use this scheme). It's a parameter I set from the VFD's front panel. Maybe your VFD has a similar setup.
Randy
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Hi,
No need to set a trap. I'm here.
Ok to answer a few things.
1.Step Pulse Control DC-06 - This DigiSpeed takes a step pulse train and converts it to a control voltage, where the voltage is set by the frequency of the step pulses. Basically the pluses are used in a charge pump. An analogy of this is filling up a bucket that has a leak using a cups of water. You can maintain any level in the bucket by varying the rate at which you fill it.
The problem is that it is difficult to control all the variables. The rate at which the charge pump leaks is controlled by components that have tolerances. Also, the rate at which the charge pump charges is controlled by the step pulse (size of cup).
Other CNC component manufactures also use this technology in the converters,. They require you to set the step pulse to a particular value to match what they need. This means that this step pulse is also then used for the stepper/servo drives and my be non-optimum.
On the DC-06 I put a monostable to ensure that the step pulse sent to the chargepump was always a constant width. This eliminated one variable. The component tolerances is a lot harder to fix. This results in the user having to play around with the steps/per value for the spindle axis to get the frequency of the step pulse correct. This means going back an forth to the axis setup screen which is a real pain.
The frequency needs to be high enough to get full scale voltage out of the DC-06, but if it is too high, the voltage will max out too early, resulting in a non-linear speed response from the spindle motor.
I spent way too much time supporting people setting up the DC-06. Don't get me wrong, once set up it is as good as the DC-03, but with the required support it wasn't cost effective.
2.PWM Control DC-03 - This DigiSpeed accepts a PWM waveform from Mach3 where the Duty Cycle (mark/space ratio) represents the speed as a percentage of the spindle maximum speed. That is if the PWM duty cycle is 25% then the voltage out is 25% of the Analogue control voltage supply from the Motor controller.
Setting up is extremely easy. Measure the maximum spindle speed, then enter it into the Max pulley setting. That's about it.
The other advantage of the DC-03 is that is is more EMI resistant than the DC-06. Extra spikes on the DC-06 step line get converted in charge pump pulses that bump up the control voltage.
Relays - Both the DC-03 and DC-06 have two general purpose SPDT signal relays on board. These can be used for a variety of uses (or not at all) depending on what motor controller you are using and it's requirements.
Some Motor controllers require separate FWD and REV inputs, Some have a DIR input and an ENABLE. The two relays can usually be configured to operate as the controller requires.
Cheers,
Peter.
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Hi peter
Sorry for the late response, I see on the updated schematic there is no Reverse wire to the VFD. How will the M3 and M4 work?
Thanks
Katoh
Katoh,
Do you need to use reverse is the first question?
The parallel port has 12 outputs and 5 inputs so yyou need to engineer your system to work within these limitations (or use a 2nd parallel port).
EN012 http://www.homanndesigns.com/pdfs/EN012_V3.pdf is setup for 4 axes. If you are only using 3, then you can also use pins 8 and 9 for other things.
Also in the Engineering note I've set the breakout board to use pin 17 for the charge pump enable. If you did not need that, you could then also free up pin 17 for other use.
As to the DigiSpeed, it needs an output pin to control each relay. If you don't need to use both relays, then don't.
To control the relays via the spindle M3 and M4 codes (assuming you want to have reverse) you can do it as below.
1. First choose the output pins that will be use to control the relays. If you only have a 3 axis machine it could be say pins 8 and 9.
2. Wire up the DC-03, connecting say relay 1 to pin 8 on the MB-02V6
3. Wire up the DC-03, connecting say relay 2 to pin 9 on the MB-02V6
4. In the Mach3 outputs config tab, assign pins 8 and 9 to be controlled by Mach3 outputs, say Output5 for pin 8 and Output 6 for pin 9
5. In the Mach3 spindle config tab, assign M3 to turn on Output5 (Pin 8 thus relay 1)
6. In the Mach3 spindle config tab, assign M4 to turn on Output6 (Pin 9 thus relay 2)
So now, when you use M3, Relay 1 will turn on. If you use M4 relay 2 will turn on.
If you Motor controller needs a direction input and an Enable input, then the config is different. Assuming we are using Relay 1 to switch the enable and relay 2 to switch the direction, the setup would be;
1. First choose the output pins that will be use to control the relays. If you only have a 3 axis machine it could be say pins 8 and 9.
2. Wire up the DC-03, connecting say relay 1 to pin 8 on the MB-02V6
3. Wire up the DC-03, connecting say relay 2 to pin 9 on the MB-02V6
4. In the Mach3 outputs config tab, assign pin 8 to be controlled by Mach3 outputs, say Output5
5. In the Mach3 Motor config tab, assign pin 9 to be the spindle axis dir pin on port 1
6. In the Mach3 spindle config tab, assign M3 to turn on Output5 (Pin 8 thus relay 1)
7. In the Mach3 spindle config tab, assign M4 to turn on Output5 (Pin 8 thus relay 1)
Notice a couple of things here. M3 or M4 will turn on Relay 1. We need this as Relay 1 is the Enable so must be active in FWD and REV.
Relay 2 is now controlled by the Spindle axis direction output. Mach3 will automatically set this pin when a M3 or M4 is issued.
Note: In PWM mode, the Spindle axis Step pin is set to the pin that will carry the PWM signal to the DC-03V3.
Hopefully the above is clear enough to understand.
Cheers,
Peter.
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Theree must be somthing wrong with us here in Canberra 3 of us and none of us can get them to work .I am going to build a test system so we can all have a play with it
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hi Peter,
Its not really needed to have reverse on the lathe but I just purchased a project mill as well.
Well I re-wired to your drawing and nothing has changed. I used pin 16 to sig and 8 and 9 as M3 and M4. still no matter what cannot getthe relays to work?
Ideas please.
.
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Hi,
Can you provide me with the following,
1. an image or description of the jumper settings on the DC-03
2. an image or description of the jumper settings on the MB-02
3. a screen capture of the Mach3 Motor outputs setting tab
4. a screen capture of the Mach3 Motor outputs setting tab
5. a screen capture of the Mach3 outputs setting tab
6. a screen capture of the Mach3 spindle setting tab
From that I should be able to get you on the right track.
So, is it only the relays you are struggling with, or do you also have problems with the Speed control as well?
Cheers,
Peter
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Peter
Again thanks for the quick reply. I will try and get those out tonight for you.
I am trying to work through things one at a time for now. Firstly the relays and once I get the relays to switch I will then power up the VFD and see if I can get the variable 0-10v voltage to work.
Cheers
Katoh
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Hi Peter
I went through it again last night to make sure my wiring and settings are correct and still found nothing.
The jumpers as set according to your schematics both
http://www.homanndesigns.com/pdfs/EN012_V1.pdf
http://www.homanndesigns.com/pdfs/EN012_V3.pdf
Both the BOB are the same but one jumper at the top is different so I tried both positions.
Here are my screen shots.
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I have been reading some of the old posts now dont even know my own name . Peter will be along to save us I hope .I cant see anything will walk away for a while and come back to it
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optco
I reckon its just something we are overlooking with the MB02V6 boards, as I can get, and have got the darn things running with the other boards, as you well know.
Peter,
Should have added on earlier post Pin 16 is connect to Sig on the DC03 and Pin 8 is to RL1 pin 9 to RL2.
5v and 0v come from the BOB as per drawings and the BOB has its own seperate 5v power supply.
Cheers
Katoh
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I will take that thaught to me to work along with the drawings and notes .we will beat this
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optco
I reckon its just something we are overlooking with the MB02V6 boards, as I can get, and have got the darn things running with the other boards, as you well know.
Peter,
Should have added on earlier post Pin 16 is connect to Sig on the DC03 and Pin 8 is to RL1 pin 9 to RL2.
5v and 0v come from the BOB as per drawings and the BOB has its own seperate 5v power supply.
Cheers
Katoh
Spent the weekend doing kids sport. OK a couple of things.
In EN012V3, the MB-02 is set up for positive logic on outputs 1,14,16,17(JP4) and negative logic on pins 2-9 (JP7).
In EN012V3, the DC-03 is set up for positive logic (JP2)
Since you are driving the two relays from pins 8 and 9 which are set up for negative logic, I'd suggest using negative logic for the DC-03 as well. So,
1. On the MB-02 change the jumper on JP7 to the 5V end.
2. On the DC-03 change JP2 end with the v pointing arrow.
3 on the Mach3 outputs tab, tick the active low column for output 1 and output 2.
4.on the motor outputs tab tick the active low for the spindle tab
Also in your motor outputs you have pin 1 controlled by your spindle dir output. What is pin 1 actually connected to? If it's not connected to anything then that's fine, otherwise set the port for Spindle dir to port 0 as your not using it.
Once you have set that up tellme what the DC-03 relay leds are doing?
Cheers,
Peter.
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Hi Peter
these were my findings after doing what you said, on the DC03 the first light was had a fast flash, on both relay 1 and 2 were on. Commands through mach made no difference to the relays at all.
So I tried a bit of reverse engineering, firstly checked inputs and I can get inputs back to mach, limits, E-stop work inputs, so port is working. I re- wired again so I use the outputs 14,16, 17 ,If I manually send a signal to the digispeed relays work both ways if on they will switch off, if off they will switch on. So the DCo3 is working, but some were the signal is not getting from the breakout board out to the digispeed. Being a twin parallel port setup with 2 Bobs I will try the other, If the other does the same is must be the settings on the BOB.
I have tried every configuration known Active high/low jumpers in one position then another, it is getting frustrating now.
Thanks
Katoh
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Hi Katoh,
The leds on the breakout board help by showing you what Mach3 is doing to the parallel port lines.
If the LEDs on the BoB do not turn on or off as expected, then mach3 is not controlling the pins as expected. If that's the case, then the DC-03 will not work as expected either.
Can you take a photo of the MB-02V6 Bob and the DC-03V3 so I can see what jumper settings you have?
Cheers,
Peter.
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Again Many Thanks Peter!!!
I realise that must be frustrating for you as well as us.
I have gone back to using Pins, 14,17 as relay M3 and M4 and pin 16 as Sig. Please disregard wiring as shown in the phho its all temp trying to work out whats going on, normally its very neet and all shielded. I hope this photo helps.
I will wait to here back from you before I try re-wiring o the second board, and the reason for the second board is I need 10 inputs on the lathe refer
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,19655.0.html
Cheers
Katoh
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Hi Katoh,
Thanks for the photo. from the jumper settings you are using the charge pump enable and the enable lo input to enable the BoB. Can you confirm that the Enable Led on the BoB is flashing about 3 times per second. Can you confirm that the enable led is flashing at this rate?
Note that if the enable jumper is removed then that particular enable input is being controlled by you. If the jumper is inserted then it is over-ridden and does not affect the enabling of the board.
There is a problem here. Currently you have configured the board to accept a charge pump signal from Mach3 on pin 17. You then say you are using pin 17 to control one of the relays. You cannot use pin 17 for both.
While we try to get the DigiSpeed to work, put a jumper in the Lo and CP position of JP1. This way the BoB will always be enabled. Also ensure that in Mach3, that in the config tab for Outputs you disable the chargepump output.
You have set the pullup resistors on all pins to pull them to 0V. From that, you should be setting up the output signals on these pins to use positive logic (active when 5V is applied)
You should also be setting the DC-03 to use positive logic as well. For this, JP3 should be at the end with the ^ arrow.
You should also be setting two of the Mach3 outputs signals to control the parallel port pins 14 and 17. These pins are being used to control the two DC-03 relays.
These two outputs should then be set in the Spindle config tab to be controlled by the M3 and M4 commands.
Once you have done this you should be able to turn on the relays by entering "M3" and "M4" in the MDI input line.
Cheers,
Peter.
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OH Shoot I have the wrong board ! will order another !
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Gentlemen
After a night of playing around with jumpers adding subtracting ect and more I have finally got Relays working.
Now when command M3 relay one switches on and M4 relay 1 off and 2 starts, M5 both relays on, Which I believe that is how it is meant to work.
I have used pin 14 and 17 as M3 and M4 and pin 16 as Sig. The VFD is not fully wired yet and there is no way of testing the 0-10v input thus far, but I may just temporary wire to check.
Peter I have attached Pics of BOB DC03 and a couple of screen shots for review if you see a problem please let me know. But you sent me on the right tract with your last post and what to look for. Is there anyway of testing the 0-10v without the VFD powered?
Thanks Again
Katoh
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Katoh,
Good to see you are making progress.
To test the analog voltage output without using a VFD, just use a 12V dc supply, or even a 9V battery connected to AV+ and Agnd in place of the VFD. You can then use a multimeter to measure the output voltage between Aout and Agnd.
Cheers,
Peter
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thanks pete hope to get going tomorow .
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will hook it up and see if I can get it to play with my old Rutex 990 boards
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Thanks Peter
Any suggestions what , or it makes no difference what we set motor tuning up as on Mach to test?
The way I see it Max velocity should be 10v and 1/2 max rpm should be 5v.
Cheers
Katoh
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The way I do my testing is this.
1. Connect a dc power supply in the range if 6v to 15V in place of the supply coming from the VFD.
2. Initially set the max spindle speed to the supply voltage times 100. so if you are using a 9V battery set it to 900
3. Now in Mach3 enable the spindle and set the speed to the maximum spindle setting. In out case 900
4. Ensure that the DC-03 multi-turn attenuation potentiometer is turned fully clockwise. (Max output, no attenuation)
5. Measure the voltage being generated by the Digispeed. It will be less than 9V by about 0.7V as this is "stolen by the semiconductor junctions.
6. Then set the Max pulley setting to match this measured voltage level, say 830. This would equate to 8.3V
7. Now, you can check the linearity of the generated voltage against the commanded voltage. If you want to see 5.4V at the output , enter a speed of 540rpm. You can then check a range of values.
Then, once you hook it up to the VFD set the Max pulley speed to match the actual measured maximum speed. Note that if you supply 10V from the VFD to the DigiSpeed, you won't get 10V back, but a little less. This will consequently reduce the maximum speed of you spindle. If this is a problem, you have two options;
1. Some VFDs have parameter settings that allow you to scale the max speed of the spindle. That is, you can set up the VFD to produce 400Hz (max speed) when it sees 9.3V rather than 10V at the control voltage input.
2. Use an on-board DC/DC converter in the DC-03. With this the DC-03 will not rely on the 10V supply from the VFD, but generate the voltage it self.
Cheers,
Peter.
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well an update still limping along .not dead in the water yet. I have movement from the spindle BUT the speed works in reverse ! also I cant get sig through the Bob .to my Rutex boards .If I bypass the bob rutex works fine . any ideas would be good thanks oldtime
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You need to go to the motor config tab and set the spindle step to Active low
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thanks again . any ideas why I cant get a sig through the BOB to my Rutex .How may I test it ? sorry for being a pain
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otpco
Were did you take the connection from to the Rutex, Directly behind the the input were the Parallel port connects is the output, did you go from there? Have you got the pins assigned correctly?
The way I work it it should be a direct connection between input and output. I will have a bit of a play with mine tonight and see how we go.
Thanks Peter for the Info, trying to work and children and every thing else leaves not much time for this, but Ill test as soon as I can. You have being a big help so far.
Cheers
Katoh
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Peter is the bob or can the bob pass sig through pins 1 to 13 ? I need to not change these and still have the digi working . Just about reaching the end of my teather on this one . I have a parallel port in and out .I use pins 1 to 13 to run my Rutex 990 boards if I connect the two together it works the rutex .but cant get it to work through the board .I believe its jumper related .or have I got the wrong parts to make this work . I am finding the documentation confusing to say the least
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Pins 10,11,12,13 are inputs on the parallel port. They can't be used as outputs. So why are you trying to use them as inputs?
BTW, which part of the manual is confusing?
Cheers,
Peter.
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Oh dear . The rutex uses a parallel port pins 1 to 13 for its inputs . there is a parallel port plug on the board . I don't see how I can change it . The rutex works if I plug it into the plug and the digi works if I plug it into the plug . but I cant get the rutex to work if I wire from the bob to the rutex . now this is very badly written . I have it working sort of by making a cable with two plugs on one end and one on the other . It is a dogs breakfast but it works I was hoping for a better solution . thanks peter .
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I'm sorry, I can't understand what you are trying to do.
When you say you want to pins 1-13 as inputs to the rutex board, what does that mean? inputs from the outside world? Or from the parallel port. I thought you were wanting to use pins 10-13 as outputs.
In Mach3 terminology, I now have no idea whether you want to use the lines 1-13 as inputs to mach3 or outputs.
How about drawing a schematic of what you want to do. You need to provide a bit more detail so be are working from the same reference.
Cheers,
Peter.
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Hi Peter
I beleive I might be able to explain what otpco wants to do.
From the computer he has connected directly to the MB02V6 board that drives his digispeed. He needs to then run a the cable from there to his Rutex board to drive the axis motors and what ever else runs from his rutex board. Originally he had a CNC4PC board were the DB25 cable plugged into the board and had an output on the other side which went to his rutex board.
What he has tried to do is use Pins 1-13 on the MB02V6 and connect them directly to the rutex board but is unable to get his axis motors to work.
I believe his question is can he use those pins to the Rutex board to give the same signals out from mach, he can get the rutex board working if he uses the IDC-26 Header but his wiring has become very messy and wishes to tidy everything up.
If the helps.
Thanks Katoh
Sorry I have run out of time lately to do any more testing on my lathe, family commitments.
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Thanks Katoh yes thats what I would like to do . Hope Peter will be along soon to Bail me out again .
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Hi,
I've been waiting for you to provide a schematic or clear description of what you are trying to do. I do not understand what you mean by output or inputs
Can you provide a schematic (hand drawn is ok) similar to the schematics in my engineering notes of what you are trying to do?
Cheers,
Peter
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I give up . cant work out how to post a picture any tips
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When trying a reply, there is the addition options at the left on the bottom.
There you can attach the image as a file.
Cheers,
Peter.
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Here it is I think and hope ! her is my set up the top plug goes to my Rurex 990 boards the bottom from the confuser
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Hi,
Unfortunately, I can't tell much from the photo, other than you've done a nice wiring job. :)
Can you draw a schematic similar to this.
http://www.homanndesigns.com/pdfs/EN009_V2_3.pdf
Just handdraw it and label the signals.
Cheers,
Peter
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I will try . it will keep me busy for a while .
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Hi all sorry for the bad pictures I have my workshop all packed up .I miss my computer with the things I want and use . I have the homman BOB and digi speed working well . I cant get the output to the rutex working . If I plug the two d25 cables together without the BOB it works fine (the Rutex bit ) I cannot get them to both work together . this is how I have them wired thanks Mark
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Hi Mark,
It is very difficult to read the signal labels on the diagram. But, from what I can see you have the step and dir signals coming out from the MB-02 tied to the gnd pins on the R990 DB-25 connector, and the step and dir pins on the R990 db25 connector not connected to the MB-02.
Cheers,
Peter
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sorry peter . what I have is the pins 1 through to 13 on the bob to pins 1 through to pins 13 on the db25
so pin 1 on the bob to pin 1 on the db25
pin 2on the bob to pin2 onthe db25 etc etc
so bacisly I want the signals to pass through If I just plug the two db25 plugs together without the bob in the middle the rutex works (but no digi speed ) if I put the bob in the middle the digi works . what I am trying to get to work is both . maybee I should give you a ring .thanks for your time
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Ok, the MB-02 should certainly allow that.
Do you have the manual for the Rutex Bob and the drives that you are using so I can have a look at them.
Cheers,
Peter.
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is this what you need
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Hi Mark,
That's what I needed. It shows that the inputs have pullups to 5V. So the MB-02V6 pullup jumper for the inputs need to be set to 5V as well.
Can you also post the manual for the drives that you are using.
Cheers,
Peter
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Looking at the image in post 42, You have the inputs pullup jumper set to 0V. You need to set it to the 5V end.
Also the Enable source jumper is set to enable always (pos ON), swap it to the Enable end.(it won't change anything as you have the 3 enable override jumpers in.
Since you limit inputs are active low, you need to go into the Mach3 configuration and ensure that the inputs that are using input pins 10,11,12 and 13 have the active low checkbox ticked.
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here is some more imformation hope this helps thanks again