Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: octavioa on February 28, 2012, 08:34:33 AM
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Hello,
A friend has a RoboTool CVM-1 milling machine that is presently working. He has seen my
small desktop router and admires the MACH3 software. We were wondering if it is economically
feasible to upgrade his machine to use MACH 3.
His machine uses servos - for example is it a matter of connectiong a specific BOB to his controller
boards and then to a PC with MACH 3 on it??
Thank you,
Octavio
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If the servo drives are analogue input only rather than Step/Dir then he can go two routes.
1. replace the drives with ones that accept step/dir signals.
2. Use one of the motion contrllers available for Mach that can output +-10v analogue signals.
Hood
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Thank you Hood -
I will check with him tomorrow -
If they are analoque input only and we need to go with
motion controllers, can you recommend a source.
Thank you,
Octavio
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Cant really recommend as I have never used any of them but the options I know of are
Galil (expensive unless second hand) http://www.galilmc.com/
DSPMC http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/motion/dspmc.php
KFlop with KAnalog http://dynomotion.com/index.htm
CSMIO/IP-A http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/galeria-dzial--3,-CSMIO_Series__CNC_CONTROL_SYSTEMS.html
Hood
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I just finished a complete retrofit on a 1985 RoboTool mill originally fitted with CVM-1 controls. It came out well but was a complete rewire job. I ended up ditching the original NEMA box in favor of 2 saddle boxes, primarily due to floor constraints within my shop. I used the original motors but threw out the resolvers in favor of quadrature encoders. Everything else in the control is new. Power supply, communication boards, amps, relays for the way lube, coolant pump, and spindle brake. All new. I spent less than a grand on the iron with good screws and motors, sold the original control to somebody who wanted it as a spare to get half my original investment back, and then have no more than $2k into the retrofit. The machine is not screaming fast because the original servo motors are small, but I can manage 80ipm in the X, 90ipm in the Y, and 100 IPM in the Z which is good enough for my needs. My new servo amps could handle more motor, and I might upgrade to something a bit larger in the X and Y eventually. For now, the machine is quiet, accurate to 0.001 repeatably, and is going to make me a boat load of money. For relatively short money I don't think you could do much better. The base machine iron on the old RoboTool is a good design and I get 36" of travel in the X, 15" in the Y, and 5" in the Z. Good luck.
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I just finished a complete retrofit on a 1985 RoboTool mill originally fitted with CVM-1 controls. It came out well but was a complete rewire job. I ended up ditching the original NEMA box in favor of 2 saddle boxes, primarily due to floor constraints within my shop. I used the original motors but threw out the resolvers in favor of quadrature encoders. Everything else in the control is new. Power supply, communication boards, amps, relays for the way lube, coolant pump, and spindle brake. All new. I spent less than a grand on the iron with good screws and motors, sold the original control to somebody who wanted it as a spare to get half my original investment back, and then have no more than $2k into the retrofit. The machine is not screaming fast because the original servo motors are small, but I can manage 80ipm in the X, 90ipm in the Y, and 100 IPM in the Z which is good enough for my needs. My new servo amps could handle more motor, and I might upgrade to something a bit larger in the X and Y eventually. For now, the machine is quiet, accurate to 0.001 repeatably, and is going to make me a boat load of money. For relatively short money I don't think you could do much better. The base machine iron on the old RoboTool is a good design and I get 36" of travel in the X, 15" in the Y, and 5" in the Z. Good luck.
I'm looking at getting a Robotool and was wondering if you could give me a list of things I need and where to get them if you could to do a conversion. THX
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The only thing I kept from the original system was the motors, and I'm regretting that now since they are quite small (250W). I can rapid at 80ipm reliably when the machine is warm and that is about it. Before long I suspect it will drive me over the edge and I'll upgrade the motors to 750W. Beyond that, I didn't even keep the NEMA cabinet, but that was mostly due to my own personal packaging requirements within my shop space. You'll need a breakout board, servo amps, power supplies (servo and logic), circuit protection, contactors, VFD for the spindle (assuming you don't have 3 phase available or want variable control of spindle speed via the controller). I went with mostly CNC4PC stuff since I like the way Arturo Duncan has packaged everything. I also went with Dugong drives which I am thrilled with.
Just FYI, the auto way lube pump and coolant pump are both 120/1 VAC so you'll need to accomodate relays for those within your control as well.
Aside from the motors, I really like the machine and have been putting it to work lately. The footprint is very small for the available table travel and the head/spindle is both extremely rigid and quite powerful. My next immediate project on the machine is going to be some chip/coolant guarding on the table and a chip tray below.
Best of luck.
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Interesting. The manual says it will do 200ipm.
The machine I am looking at was making wood parts before the move. now I get a stop switch error and won't let me continue. I hear noting when I push the E Stop button. Maybe something simple?
I have no experience with CNC so all is a foreign language to me and trying to find any help with this machine is nearly impossible. The iron itself is pristine and looks like it has never been used almost. Asking $1000
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Well I don't know if the motors which I've been working with were original to the machine or not...I think they are but I guess you never know with a 25 year old machine. 250W is very small...I woudln't have expected to do much more than its doing now. As for the old control....that thing is dated so I wouldn't really consider reusing it unless you're into electronics are are always up to a challenge. I would be extremely interested to hear what motors this machine you're looking at has....maybe even some pictures?
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I'll see what I can do. I should go there today or tomorrow at the latest. I only took photos of controls and table. No drive pictures.
I have the operator and programming manuals but no service manual which would really be helpful.
I can some simple testing. For the most part, how these things work is beyond me and mush more learning is in order. I am going to sell my J Head BP or my benchtop knee mill for the funds to buy this. Which ever sells first. Trying not to sell the BP for $1000 as that is a steal. Have 2 guys in line to buy it now. I do need a working machine in it's place.
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I sold my benchtop 6x26 knee mill for $1000 and will just pull the trigger and get this Robotool. Hope to have it delivered today. I'll get pictures of it when it gets here.
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Got the mill in and wired today. It fired right up and went through the auto home sequence. I shut it off and then I get the stop switch error again. Spent a few hours testing things. I bet this is just some loose connection probably in the stop button itself. Non the less this will be a great candidate for upgrade down the road.
Basically traded my 1984 benchtop knee mill for this delivered.
Here are some pictures.
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/robotool%20comming%20in.jpg)
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/lesson%20robotool%20drive2.jpg)
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/robo%20motor2.jpg)
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/robo%20in%20place2.jpg)
Looks like it still has cosmoline on it. Flakes untouched through out travel on the whole machine.
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/robo%20knee%20ways2.jpg)
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/robo%20ways2.jpg)
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/robo%20ways%20sm.jpg)
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Well I am just not able to find why the brake light is on in the panel and why I am getting the stop/limit switch error. There is a guy here that is some what familiar with these machines and he is $100/hr to come look at it. There are other guys out there that are $65/hr but are not familiar with it. Without schematics I can see the cost getting up there pretty quick and just decided that it is not worth spending any more on this control as if something else goes wrong or the master disk I have gets damaged I would be hosed once again.
The $65/hr guy said he could do a basic retro with Centroid control for $2000. That sounded appealing as he is local and would support it quickly if I had questions or issues. I need to talk to him again and get firm numbers being I can do some work on it too.
Now Arturo Duncan at CNC4PC has put together some firm numbers for me. Here is a bit of the last email he sent. He has been VERY quick and helpful suggesting several options for me with and with out my skill set. This is what we finally came to what would be best for me.
I would send him one of my motors with the encoder on it to tune it all and he would assemble and tune for $300-$350
"If you want to see the numbers, here they are:
- Controller : CX4EV12-1 1,040.35 http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=532 (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=60&products_id=532)
- Power unit: (1081.76--39.50*3 - 79.95*3) = 723.41 http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=64_96&products_id=553 (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=64_96&products_id=553) Minus motors and encoders
- Assembly and Testing: $300
- TOTAL = $2,063.76
If you want to add the VFD and 4th axis, it would be around $350.
You only need to add a laptop with Mach3.
Arturo Duncan
http://cnc4pc.com"
As others have said Arturo has been stellar so far. I do plan on getting a index head in the future so 4th axis will be needed for that. For what I am probably going to do I just don't see the need for a VFD. A tach of some kind is really all I would like as with doing manual tool changes anyway I have time to adjust spindle speed accordingly. Any thoughts on this?
I am getting giddy now that I have made up my mind to retro this. Just have to decide on to go with Arturo or the local guy with Centroid. I need to talk to him more.
Also special thanks to Spence for he has sent me many emails with info on his machine and answered question I have sent him quickly.
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I have decided on building my own system trying to reuse my power supplies and other things as I can. Will get what I need from CNC4PC. Here is my list so far with Arturo's suggestions.
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/800/parts%20controller.jpg)(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/800/servo%20kit.jpg)
Also a schematic of a system still in testing from CNC4PC. http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/CX4EA12-1_V1.pdf (http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/CX4EA12-1_V1.pdf)
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Very similar list to what I ended up with. I would strongly suggest going with a new power supply for the servos. I see you're going to upgrade the encoders...good call. Make sure the ones of have selected are at lleast 1000ppr Quads (preferably 1500-2000ppr). The units on your existing servos are 500ppr resolvers. Yuck. What will you be doing for spindle control? Just driving a contactor for on/off? I too would like a spindle tach input (spindle index pulse) at some point...could be very helpful to know what speed I'm actually running, especially with dual variables of VFD and manually adjustable belt drive in the head.
I would seriously consider just buying bulk Cat5 cable and a bunch of RJ45 ends along with a crimp tool. Every one of my cables in both the mill and the new lathe are custom...I can't imagine trying to make a clean install with pre-made cables.
Looking good so far. I was running my mill today making parts for a client and was hitting 0.000 tolerance on a slew of circular holes. For an old machine with new controls, it does just fine.
Looking forward to tracking your progress. You know how to find me if you have any more questions.
SG
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I hurt my shoulder and am having surgery on it on the 10th. Funds are more than tight at this point and I have to build a few walls and insulate before the surgery. Currently the shop is not heated so I have to enclose and heat the machine area at least.
I am going to just get it running with as much factory stuff as possible for right now and see if it will work for my needs as is. Upgrade as needed. With the gear reduction on the table drives I am hoping the encoder res is good enough for my needs.
I will talk to Arturo about the PS. My electrical engineer said I could use my PS but he is not familiar with the new electronics either.
I have also decided to do as much hard connections as possible so I will get different boards with screw terminals. I know it is easy to CAT5 everything but I hate connectors and would rather even solder stuff together. This will eliminate the servo panel too. The Panel is getting wall mounted for easy access.
I built two computers over X-Mas. One with Win8 and the other is an old P4 server of mine that I put 2000 Pro on. Got BobCad working on the win8 machine as well as Mach installed. Got the Mach post processor from BC, post and save a part from BobCad to Mach and ran it in Mach. All looks good so far. The pro machine will be on the mill.
There is another 2 guys currently doing a Rob retro as well that I ran into. One guy said I could have his air brake as he isn't needing it. I am not going to VFD the spindle. I will adjust approximate speed by hand at least for now. Control on/off with software as well as brake.
At least this is my current plan.
THX for everything.
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Well I had the surgery and got the machine shop area enclosed and heated. Been slow going with limited use of one arm.
Got the Robo controls off and new goodies all ordered from Art. Decided to go with VFD as it looks like my spindle brake connection disappeared. That was also ordered. I also got a pendant, that should be fun. Art said that I could use my PS if it works so that is what I am going to do. Also using the rest of the HV stuff. The final decision will be up to my electronics buddy after he tests the PS.
http://geckocycles.com/robotool_cvm.htm (http://geckocycles.com/robotool_cvm.htm)
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Great! I have had excellent experiences with Arturo's stuff even though the technical documentation has much to be desired. Once it is running, it runs very well. Arturo is also fast to respond to any questions or concerns you might have.
Even though I too have a VFD running my spindle I have the brake tied into my estop circuit to rapidly stop the spindle in the event of an emergency. I also have the VFD activate the brake whenever it is not running. The linkage for the brake would be extremely easy to fabricate and I would encourage you to consider doing this as a secondary means of keeping the spindle locked when desired.
What are you doing for servo amps?
The power supply that came with my Robotool was grossly inadequate. The transformer was only 400W with a 1000Mfd capacitor. I would be surprised if yours was much different.
If you need to build a new PS, get a Toroid transformer from Antek, preferably 750W. You'll then need a 15k Mfd capacitor bank and a bridge rectifier rated to your output voltage and current. The transformer will want to be 45VAC output since the voltage gets bumped by 1.4x when you run it through the rectifier. (This is assuming your motors are rated to 63V like mine are). I'm actually going to be upgrading my motors next month to larger DC Brush servos and will need to upgrade my PS transformer when I do so....might have this one for sale. Contact me privately if you might be interested.
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Arturo said that if the machine was working with the PS it came with then he saw no reason it would need to be replaced as it should be matched to the loads the machine was designed for. See how it tests out and if I need one I will contact you for sure. 400W hardly seems enough. Mine looks pretty darn small. I am not planning on doing heavy work, just accurate and complex.
Pretty whimpy looking PS if I do say so myself. I have seen much larger ones on other Robo's
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/panel.jpg)
There is a large picture of my panel I took out here. http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/panel%20lg.jpg (http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/panel%20lg.jpg)
As for the air brake, I don't have a cylinder so that would have to be sourced as well as brackets made which is not a big deal. Originally I have a guy contact me saying he had a brake he would let me have as well as several other cylinders. He hasn't replied back to me so I thought the VFD would handle braking. Not sure why I would need extra braking or holding power. Guess I will see. I did not talk to Arturo about what is needed for a VFD or how to hook one up. I just didn't research that as that was not on the table till the last minute. I just want to get started getting this thing built. Having the cash burning a hole in my pocket I thought I better spend what I have before I piss it away. LOL.
This is what I ordered from Arturo.
3 x DG3S-08020 DC Servo Drive (DG3S-08020) = $330.00
1 x PRG01 USB programming stick (PRG01) = $23.61
1 x C34DG - Driver to RJ45 Connector Board for DUGONG Drivers (C34DG) = $12.20
1 x C55 - DUAL 25Amp. RELAY BOARD (C55) = $39.70
1 x Ethernet Smooth Stepper Board (ESS) Breakout Board C32 - Dual Port Multifunction CNC Board= $375.00
1 x MPG2 - Pendant (MPG2) = $156.00
Got 2HP 230 Volt, Model FM50-202-C, Single Or Three Phase Input-Three Phase Output = 144.00 from Dealers Electric.
I plan on making all my own cables. I have made plenty in the past and have the tools and testers for them.
I heard that with the gear reduction on the servos the higher encoder count isn't that critical. Time will tell. I like the way these cables come out of the encoders I have. Not fond of those connectors or encoder enclosures that I have seen. Maybe I am missing something. Arturo said that the drivers will work with my encoders.
I'm sure there will be lots more to get but this should get me started and now I can move the mill to it's final resting place and lay the rest of my rubber flooring. Everything should be here before Fri. hopefully. I can get help on the weekends so timing should work out well.
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Not sure why I can't get rid of the gray background! I don't see it in the code. LOL Preview was much darker. I see now that every other post has gray BG. Must be in the JS.
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I wouldn't settle for anything less than 1000ppr quad encoders. The ones that came with my CVM-1 were complete garbage. Unless yours is significantly newer than mine you should expect to replace them.
2hp VFD....is your spindle motor only 2hp? Mine is 3HP and the 3HP VFD I have isn't adequate to stop the motor when the spindle is going any faster than 2k RPM (it over-current faults). I mostly blame it on the garbage Hyunyang VFD I'm running. It doesn't have the circuitry installed for an external braking resistor. I'm going to upgrade in a couple weeks to an Automation Direct 3hp VFD with the braking circuit installed. This should help significantly. You might consider returning the Pendant you got from CNC4PC in favor of a USB based on from vistacnc.com. I have two of those units and they are amazing and dead simple to set up.
Good luck.
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I can't read the HP on the nameplate. Searched and a 6A 220V 3ph motor is only 1.5 hp. I hope I am not wrong. I may have to use it for the Bridgeport if I am.
(http://geckocycles.com/images/robotool/robo%20motor2.jpg)
I don't know about the difference in encoders. I have 4 wires and it says HEDS-5500-A06. I searched and the Emerson ones with that PN look different than mine. Mine have a round enclosure and threaded for 3/4" cable connector. I am not against getting what I really need. Just don't want to replace something that will work as is. On work comp right now so funds are tight but time is abundant. Still limited use of the arm but that isn't holding me back too much. I just get tired pretty quick using it and certain positions can give me a fit.
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Santa in the brown truck dropped off some electronics today. I called the VFD MFG and he said that I have the right VFD for this motor. That was a small load off my mind. Hope the rest comes tomorrow so my weekend warriors and I can work on the panel.
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OMG! When life throws a curve it really does throw a good one. Got new shop and FINALLY getting back to this now with 7 year NOS. LOL
Powered up the LV side a few days ago and can't get the computer to talk to the ESS yet. GOing to delete and reinstall all software and try again.
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Well I have able to jog with Mach4 and a different computer.
One issue with Mach is a little more than half the time I restart I have to go back in the ESS plugin Output and enable the charge pump. Kind of annoying being I have to restart so much to configure everything.
I am having trouble tuning the drives, just can't get anything to work on the graph as it says it should look. The motors run fine it seems. I have over 100 hrs trying to tune these things with no luck. CNC4PC recommendations start the motor running and won't stop. I have to turn off control power then control alt delete to end servoconfig. I have to increase the steps to move to 20000 to get to see the top of the graph. Anythng less wont see the top and one motor wont even run at that setting for the test.
I should of bought a whole turn key setup with motors. I got bad advice that this was going to be easy even a caveman like myself could do it. LOL
I certainly thought I would be making parts well before this.
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FINALLY got it working well, all but the Pendant. Got the EStop to work on it but didn't get the rest configured yet.
Movement is repeatable to the tenth. X-12", Y-9", Z-7".
Had to put 3ph EMI filter on output of the VFD to get rid of spindle noise. I didn't use a shielded cable to the spindle.
THEN MACH4 CRASHES AGAIN!!! No doubt compatibility issues with CNC4PC ESS file and mach4 versions. Even built another computer. I've tried EVERY combo, I'm done with MACH with this old hardware.
Removed all the CNC4PC hardware and built a Acorn system from Arturo. All is good and solid once we figured out I had a bad C86 CNC4PC board. Had it all tuned and running in a day.
Been struggling with the other system for over 2 months 14/7!
Over $1000 of hardware not used anymore but I got no issues and it cost $400 for the cure.