Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: berty on February 12, 2011, 06:12:26 PM
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Hi to all
I am trying to get a orac auto turret working
The bit I am struggling with is the three grey scale optic sensors
I have got a drawing from denford forum
Q . there are three wires returning from turret and different sequences will give different outputs combinations
Can mach 3 be configured to work out the 8 different tool locations
or will I need another board to convert the returning signals
cheers
Bert
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The 3 sensor wires output 12v on the original machine. You will need to convert this to 5v TTL input for most breakout boards.
If you are using a breakout board with opto-isolation the simplest way to convert the 12v is with a potential divider using 2 resistors and a zener diode on each of the sensor wires.
If your breakout board does not have opto-isolation then the purchase of an opto chip and resistors and veroboard would be a safer solution.
I have a macro for the Orac toolchanger but in the middle of rewriting it and will post once i've tested it.
See recent posting "Denford Starturn"
Hope this helps
John
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Hi
many thanks for your reply
What is ttl
does the 5v supply need to come from the break out board for return reference
macro what are the and what do they do
cheers Bert
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TTL stands for Transistor Transistor Logic. It is a standardisation so all logic chips of that type can interface at the same level directly.
Attached is a very simple voltage divider that could be used with an opto-isolated breakout board.
A macro is a short "Basic" script that allows you to control Mach to do what you need.
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Many thanks for reply
Its all beyond me
What I will need is to know what wires go were ect as I am electronically challenged
bert
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Ok, This might be a problem as those resistor values will need playing with to get your 5v levels.
Lets try this another way. What breakout board do you have? Does it have 3 spare inputs.
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Hi the break out board is an old basic cnc4pc c1
The good news is that it is has 5v not 12v going in to it
bert
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Hi again I have just had a look at cnc4pc web site my one must be really old as it is very basic no charge pumps or relays fitted nothing like what they are showing on their web page just a hand full of processors
I have rechecked the input voltage to the board there is only the one and is clearly marked as 5v
Hope this helps
bert
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Hi, Your breakout board wont accept the signals from the toolchanger optos directly.
I dont know if there are any breakout boards that will accept a 12v signal input, perhaps an email to cnc4pc explaining your problem may help.
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Hi
I am bit confused as I was told the grey scale sensors were5v
I must admit that when I striped out the wiring from the orac for some reason I marked the wire as being 5 v I can only assume that I ever metered it or it was marked or connected to a 5v pin
Bert
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Hi, i'm pretty sure there 12v. You could test with a meter though.
heres the info sheet on the electronics in the toolchanger.
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hi I have had a look at some photos I took when I was in my infant stage with cnc ( still in infant stage)
I purchased two oracs a few years ago by way of bereavement sale,
one already had auto post fitted I can only presume the deceased guy had it up and running fully as apparently he was a bit of a whiz in cnc world using his machines to make monocular also he did a lot of problem solving for other people as well as instructing possibly at schools
Because I did not understand how they worked I inadvertently mucked up all his settings and ended up starting from scratch to get other machine back in work.
I came across some photos that I had taken and forgot I had it shows the c1 board it may well have opto isolation fitted it also shows that the three grey scale wires going into the c1 board.
not sure what ribbon cable did at The time he did have one gecko drive and one orac original drive fitted also a separate vfd fitted
Bert
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Hi
I am starting to wonder about these things called macro's
It may well be that stored in computer someware is the relevent missing link to my problem
Where would a good place be to try and find macro's
Also I will have a look to see if he had stored a copy of the setting he used
I do know that he had both running of the one computer and had both oracs going to a box that you could switch over so one computer could be connected to both machines but presume only one machine could only work at any given time
bert
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Do you know the name of the profile he started for the lathe? If you do then the macro will be in the folder called by that name, it will be in the macros folder in the Mach3 directory.
Hood
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Oh and for toolchange it will be called m6start.m1s
Hood
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Hi Hood
many thanks for that
Don't suppose you have an orac with tool changer on it
Bert
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Nope, have two turrets on my lathe but its a bit bigger than an Orac
Hood
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Have you fitted the turrets yourself
and is the wiring and setup similar to oracs
Is installation a standard fitment or have you had to make own wiring system
bert
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My lathe had the rear turret and a 4 position front toolpost, both were hydraulic operated. I removedt the front post and fitted another 6 position turret I got from a friend that was scrapping a CNC Lathe. This too was hydraulic operated but I converted it to use a servo motor instead which allowed bi directional positioning.
I suppose in a way all turrets are similar but each one will need its own method of operation. I use a PLC to do the donkey work and my M6 macro simply send out a signal to the PLC depending on which tool is called and then waits for the PLC to tell it the job is done.
Hood
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Hi hood
I think I may have made a mistake
Found computer has about 6 different profiles in it.
I picked on one and looked at m6start.mls had to pick a program to open it into this changed all the icons on most of the folders now I don't know what to put them back to or if I need to.
this is what I found in the one I chose
Tool=getselected tool()
x=Get tool change start(0)
y=get tool change start (1)
z=get tool change start (2)
a=get tool change start (3)
b=get tool change start (4)
c=get tool change start (5)
SafeZ=get safe Z()
If safe Z>z then straight transverse
Set current tool(tool) x,y,SafeZ,a,b,c
Before I go and look any further goes this look like what I am looking for or is it just a standard piece of software
did notice that auto tool change had been selected in I think the logic settings
Bert
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That looks more like a mill toolchange macro.
To look at macros use the editor in Mach, Operator menu then VB Script editor, you can then open from the editor window that pops up.
Hood
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Hi
nothing found in vscript editor
went to open files in editor had to go open all files
found cnc altered programs folder, nothing found it it
been through all profiles all the same
went through c drive and into macros that way in mach turn was. tool=Get Selectedtool()
SetCurrent tool(tool)
Bert
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I was meaning using the editor to browse and open m1s files so that you can view them easily.
What I would do is use the windows search function to find all the m6start.m1s files on your drive and see if you can find them that way.
That one you found is just the standard one, it has no info on actual tool change sequence.
Can you attach your xml and I will have a look and see if I can find anything that may be set up for the turret. Also do a serch for other xml files and see if the guy made up a custom one, for instance he may have called one Orac.xml
Hood
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I will have a go
bert
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I have had a look in all m6start.m1s files, Found nothing other than tool change=getselectedtool()
setcurrenttool( tool )
Have had a look at the orac.xml file and others
Have found one that has got a mention of < tool rotation >0</toolrotations> then further down script is written <toolposition>1</toolposition>
will try to down load and send it to you tomorrow
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Hi to all
I need to get the wiring connections sorted out first. As of yet the changer is not connected to any thing
I need to get the relay for the 12/24volt change over controlled by mack ( how do I configure this, ports / pins, and configuration / setup in mack3)
If the wires coming out of the changer greyscale sensors are or were made to be +5volts active and 0 volt inactive (not fitted to bob) would this be a basic digital signal? Can mach3 understand it
How do I set up ports and pins and configuration to do this.
Then as I understand it I will need to have a macro to make it all work properly. But at this stage I think this is the least of my problems.
Many thanks for all your help so far with this I have read all replies but am still lost with it all.I starting to wonder if its worth all the trouble and might be better to use it as a manual changer with a single panel mounted push switch, but this sort of defeats the object and purpose of having it.
Bert
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First thing to do is find out what voltage the signals from the changer are. If 5v then hooking direct to the bob is possible, if a higher voltage then you will need to reduce it.
Hood
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Wow thanks Hood for speedy reply I wasn't,t expecting one that quick
I had marked up all the wires before I had previously removed them from bob (over a year ago) I am sure it was working before I got my hands on it
I measured voltage that powers bob It is +4.95dc volts
I connected green and yellow to ND as marked previously
Mauve wire marked pin 12 measured with meeter shows 0.03vdc
blue wire marked pin 15 measured " " " " "" "" "" "" " 3.64vdc
white wire marked pin 13 measured " " " " " " " " 3.64vdc
Bert
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can you point me to the wiring you mention, i see a jpg posted earlier but cant seem to enlarge it for some reason so cant see it clearly.
Hood
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Hi I got a bit carried away
And rotated the tool post forward and reversed it onto ratchet at next few tool positions
Can"t see any marker for tool number to aligned to so results will be position rather that an actual tool number
position mauve blue white
1 0.03vdc 3.64vdc 3.64vdc
2 0.03 0.0 0.0
3 3.61 0.0 0.0
4 3.63 3.63 3.63
5 3.63 0.0 3.63
So I assume that I will have to do this to all positions and that one position will have to be a reference or something like that ( would that be the one with 3.63 v to all wires so that if a wire broke it would know that some thing wasn't right. ( getting a bit ahead of myself)
Bert
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will have a go
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Ok so you are feeding the optos with 5v? Do you have a wiring diag of the turret so I can see?
Looks like from your results it is all you need but a diag would be good as obviously there is a motor that will rotate and need to know how that works.
Hood
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Ok I found the wiring on my computer, must have saved it the last day.
So you are putting 5v in on red and connecting green and yellow to the 0v of your supply?
You are reading the voltages above by measuring between mauve and green, blue and green and white and green?
Hood
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Oh another thing, is there a relay connected to the motor? If so what type?
Hood
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Hi
I was measuring them using the ground on bob for black multimeter lead and then using the red from multimeter in turn on the mauve , blue and white always keeping black lead from meter on the gnd on bob
The photo earlyer on in thread shows the harness from the tool changer it is the one in the ribbed black sleeve not the one nearest my hand
the two wires that go to the motor are black and brown.
the relay is a bestat BT-125 391k0 12v coil
It has 8 pins on it two for the 12v coil, and two wires going to motor and one 12v and one 24v on the other two pins have been linked across to each other
bert
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And the red wire I presume is getting fed from the BOBs 5v?
Sounds like your relay is putting 12v into the motor to hold it and then when indexing you energise the relay, it swaps to 24v and reverses the polarity thus making it rotate the other way. Have you got the 12v and 24v supplies hooked up?
What inputs are each of the sensors wired to?
You will need a relay to switch the 12v relay, does your BOB have one?
Hood
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Hi
I have come across a drawing that I was sent a wile ago it now makes a bit more sense it is from GSM SYNTEL LTD Drawing number S1938
It shows the three internal tracks and auxiliary codes for desired tool setting
also a hand written program on it but I think it may be referring to an original denford setup, all aux and dwell have an arrow pointing at them infront
Aux out
a b c d
1 0 0 0
dwell
3 secs
Aux in
e f g h*
1 1 1 1 -for tool number 1
Aux out
a b c d
0 0 0 0
note * H input always at 1
Track wire ref tool 1 tool 2 tool 3 tool 4 tool 5 tool 6 tool 7 tool 8
outer blue e 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0
middle white f 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1
inner mauve g 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 1
bert
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yes red+5v from bob
nothing wired up yet been using a 12v battery on bench just to get it moving , Yes it should advance at speed with 24v and reverse slowly using 12v onto ratchet where it will stay stalled with 12v holding it against ratchet
Bob does not have a relay fitted to it I thought it may possibly work on +5v as previous guy had it working will need to test this though
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if its a 12v coil then its not going to work great on 5v.
Another relay would dothough, you could get one with 5v coil and have 12v on the contacts to switch the other one.
Hood
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Er, yep your right it won't switch on only 5v it sounded like it was having a good go at it, worth a try
I will have to get a relay to either switch the other relay or get one that does the same but with 5v coil
Anyway it sounds all good to me so far
This must prove that some where in all the old wiring there is the relay I need just need to find it
Many thanks for your help
bert
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OK
Unable to find relay on circuit boards anyware that looks out of place
The lady i got the machines from sent down a bag of odd electrical components that i never opened until now
I do now have a 5v coil relay a bestar BT5S 39k08
Should I replace it for the one already fitted it does have all legs in same place
It's a job for tommorrow
I thankyou and bid you good night
Best wishes
Bert
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Yep, get the wiring done and a macro should be fairly easy. I am crap at VB but should manage something or maybe someone else will come up with something better.
Hood
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Ah posted at the same time, yes, if the relay is the same contact arrangement it would be good to fit that instead :)
Hood
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Hi Hood
It's all getting very exciting, I now need to go back and start to make the power circuit for the 12&24v
shouldn't be to hard to do as I have got all of the part's but not necessarily in the right order at moment. ;D ;D
This will take a few days to sort out but as things are progressing quite quick it's got to be done.
Bert
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Hi Hood
Just finished mounting new relay for the motor control on new bit of circuit board
Would it be possible at this stage to allocate a port/pin and configure it with mack3
And test the activation of it in manual mode
Hopefully tomorrow or actually latter today I will start to rework the 12v & 24v power supply
Bert
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If you are meaning just to test the relay then yes, easiest way for the moment would be enable the coolant on Ports and Pins, Spindle Setup and just enter an output number you are not using. Then go to Ports and Pins Output page and enable the output you chose and enter the pin and port numbers for the connection on your BOB. Once done you can toggle the coolant button and the relay should switch on/off as you press the button.
Hood
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Thanks for that
I will give it a go tomorrow, (bed is calling)
Bert
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Yes I better get some sleep as well.
Hood
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Hi Hood
Got side tracked with family health problems
I have still got to wire up the 12/24v power supply to relay
Hit a mind block with it
It is one transformer with multiple wires coming out of it ( the original orac one)
I have got both 12/24 coming out in dc
the relay needs a common return that also swaps just like the 12/24 side
Will it be OK to join both returns together or will strange things start to happen
Bert
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Should be I would think but suppose it depends on how the supply is connected internally.
Hood
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Hi Hood
Silly old me I was so concertrated on the 12/24v supply swapping that I overlooked that the relay also has to swap the return wire and that I forgot to ad one to the circuit board
Bert
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Hi Hood
I have now got my power supply sorted out although it is a bit bigger in size then I would like but OK for bench testing
I gave up with the two outputs from the original transformer and used the 24vdc output and took a spur of it and regulated that down to 12dc for the reverse
Have had tool post running under relay control using a 5v battery to trip relay all seems well
I plan to get a wall wart type of power supply for it obviously 24vdc output
The current draw in forward 24v speed is 0.14 amps and when reversing but not stalled it is also 0.14 amps, when it reaches it's stop point and stall's the motor to hold its position against the ratchet it draws 0.36 amps.
Do you recon a 0.500 amp supply would be OK
bert
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Sounds like it should be but I am not an electrical guy ;)
Hood
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Me neither
I was kind of hopping with fingers crossed for a different reply ;D
More like yes that's exactly what you need
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;D
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As I am of to bed now maybee some kind hearted sole will post and tell if I am wrong whilst I am in land of nod
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Well if you have measured the currents then I dont see why it wouldnt be sufficient but as you say hopefully someone will come along and give you a definitive answer.
Hood
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Got a 24vdc 0.5amp unregulated wall wart
It out puts 32v with no load gives good forward speed though
When regulated down to 12v it does not give out enough power to move it properly at a reduced speed, struggles like hell and stalls before reaching ratchet stop
Finally regulator overheated and burnt its self out
Got hold of a second wall wart rated at 12vdc
Now using both system works (how long it will hold out when stalled I don't know)
bert
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have a nose at the ratchet assembly, and grease it well.
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Many thanks for that angle tech
I will have to locate it as I don't know where it is or how to get to it
bert
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take the toolplate off and there should be a cover, underneath it is the ratchet/pawl.
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Sounds like you are nearly there :)
Hood
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Hallo
Please help.
I built an auto rotary tool changer with a stepper motor. It doesn't have any solinoids. I use my B axis for my toolpost.
My only problem is that I don't know how to tell Mach 3 that this has to be my toolpost axis. I want it to be a 6 or 12 station tarret and I don't know how to configure my settings in Mach 3 to let my toolpost operate.
Please let me know or if you have settings for me?
Thanks
stefanvonstade2@gmail.com
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stefan
read through this thread and it should help you understand http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,17567.0.html
Hood
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thanks for quick reply, I will try it now.
I will come back to you with results
Thanks
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My general logic configuration screen is different from yours, it doesn't have Rot 360 rollover.
What must I do?
Thanks
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Because you have said General Logic rather than General Config I am thinking you must be using Mach2. You will really need to change to Mach3 I think.
Hood
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Hi Hood
Yes nearly there I am tidying wiring and trying to install it all in an old PC tower box.
I have also got to sort out stepper drives into tower as well
Then I will be able to test it out using coolant pump control
Looking forward to getting to next stage of configuring the tool positions
bert
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Hi,
The program settings you gave me was done in notepad format and saved on my C drive as well as underneath the folders Macros, Mach3 Turn. BUT it doesn't want to open when I'm in VScript.
How can I save these settings otherwise?
Please help
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did you save it with a m1s extension?
Hood
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Hi Hood,
I'm referring to another conversation you had with someone (see below:)
You want to save that as m6start.m1s and place it in the macro folder of your profile. For example if you go to Operator menu in Mach and then VB Script Editor a window will pop up, paste it there then file menu and save as option. Browse to your profiles macro folder (eg C:\Mach2\Macros\Mach3Turn) and call it m6start.m1s. There will likely be already one there so just overwrite it. If you have a custom profile it will be that instead of the Mach3Turn in the example above
I tried to save my settings the same way you gave it to him, and it doesn't want to work.
I have Mach 3 and not Mach 2, is that where the problem comes in?
Also, where can I find m1s extension? Is it a program that I can download or buy?
Thanks
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No that was a typo, should have said Mach3.
Ok few things it could be, first is you have not chosen Auto Tool change on the General Config page and second thing I can think of is the profile you saved it to is not the profile you are using, for example you may have made a custom lathe profile and you saved it in the default Turn profiles macro folder.
Hood
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Hey,
I've just figured it out...the settings is saved, but now when I type in T0101 or T0202 etc. it shows in Mach 3 and goes to the 2nd tool, but nothing happens to my toolpost.
On the general config page, I am on auto tool change.
Can I change the tool on the MDI line or should I write a specific program? Do you have examples or print screens or images that you can maybe send me, like you did on the general logic config page?
Thx for your input and sorry to be a pain the ass
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Easiest thing would be if you attach your xml then I can look and find whats wrong hopefully :)
Oh and your m6start.m1s as well.
You will likely need to rename them both before you attach.
Hood
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What is m6start.1s is that the little VB Script program u send me i got tree XML files saved on my com putere and dint know which one is the rite one only one works on my spindle. the only one
that works General Config screen. is not the same as Jr's i had Back up of AL my settings maybe if u send me Jr's i will chance my Arther settings if u
Will
thanks
Hood
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Stefan
the m6start.m1s is the macro that does the tool changing, it has the VB in it. It needs to be saved to the macro folder of the profile you are using.
The xml you will need to attach is the one for the profile you are using, in other words if its the default Turn profile it will be called Mach3Turn.xml if its a cusom profile it will have the name of yor custom profile.
Not sure who Jr is?
Hood
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Stefan
Not sure who Jr is?
Hood
Have you not watched Dallas
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Hi hood
I am slowly getting there
I have now finished the fit out of stepper drives etc and now in process of hooking up the tool post relay trigger wiring to BOB
I will as instructed set it up to the coolant pump control first
Hope you are well
Bert
:)
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Stefan
Not sure who Jr is?
Hood
Have you not watched Dallas
Nope, not as old as you ;D
Hood
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Good to hear Bert, seems your thread has been hijacked ;D
Hood
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Stefan
Not sure who Jr is?
Hood
Have you not watched Dallas
Nope, not as old as you ;D
Hood
lol, age comes to us all.
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Truth be told I am certainly old enough to remember Dallas, didnt watch it as I was too busy doing more productive things ;)
Hood
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same here, i blame the women in our lives for the knowledge of soaps.
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sorry I meant "your" not JR hahaha
I will upgrade my MACH 3 to the latest version and I will come to you with that MXL files.
Thanks for your support
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angel tech
Fortunately mine doesnt have an interest in them :)
stefan
That would be good, will be easier for me to advise if I can see how you have things set up :)
Hood
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please send me your email adress so I can send some info to you
Thanks
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stefan you can attach files to the forum but will send you a PM with my email anyway.
Hood
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Sorry Hood, I lost your email adres,can't see it on the discussion board...can you please send it again?
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Hi Hood
Yes to hijack it's just as well some one shot JR or we could be here for years hunting down our next messages.
Never mind we have probably all done it at some stage in a bid to cure our frustrations.
I am sure it will sort itself out I think it's a newbie thing.
One of my friends bought a cnc router I did tell him it would be hard to get used to it, he said the guy he bought it of would help him with it I suggested he married him he looked at me as if I was mad but after a few months of frustration he now knows what I was talking about.
I have bought some 8 terminal microphone plugs and sockets to connect the tool post wiring through the enclosure and onto to the bob and relay wiring.
I assume all the grey scale wires will go to any vacant bob pins and will be configured in mack ?
This will take a few days to sort out
Bert :)
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Yes thats correct as you will need Mach to know which tool is in position.
Hood