Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Sweep on November 17, 2006, 03:04:15 PM

Title: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Sweep on November 17, 2006, 03:04:15 PM
I am really new to this CNC stuff so would appreciate a bit of help.
I have been offered a Triac ATC from September 1994, which is currently at an engineering works that is closing. The machine has a couple of bashes on the cabinet and must be considered as a non - runner as I haven't seen it powered up. Price was originally £800 but dropped to £400 as I couldn't see it powered up but I think I could get it for £250.
I am guessing that the original electronics will be junk as the machine couldn't be powered up, but that suits me fine as after downloading Mach3 it looks incredible and, therefore, I need to know just how much I will need to spend to get the machine up and running.
For anyone not familiar with the Triac ATC, it has X,Y,Z axis with another motor rotating an 8 point tool holder. The tools are selected pneumatically, the motor just indexes them int position. Not sure what controls the spindle motor speed though.
Would like to be able to upload dxf drawings as I am not familiar with G code programming etc.
Don't really want to learn by mistakes again so would appreciate any help.
Is there a 'box' I can buy that fits in between my computer and the Triac that will control all the axis and tool changer, vary the spindle motor speed, trigger the pneumatics to select and lock in the toolholder and that will not cost me the price of a new Haas? There is a pneumatic/electric box on the machine which I guess looks after the toolchanger, I think it will just need a trigger signal.
Finally, I could do with any help asap as I will have to sat yes or no to the machine next Monday or Tuesday.

Thanks ...Richard
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Hood on November 17, 2006, 08:01:59 PM
Dont think you will find a box that will be plug and play especially if you are on a budget. I am about to embark on a lathe retrofit (lack of £££;s is holding things up :( ) It has a 6 position rear turret and 4 position front toolpost so I will be in the same  boat as you with regards the toolchanger. From my discussions with Brian Barker it seems a PLC is the way to go for all the inputs/out[uts I will need,  but its definitely not plug and play, it will take a bit of work.
Hood
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Brian Barker on November 17, 2006, 09:41:25 PM
All you need to do is get something that can turn the bits on and off... so if you think you can do it with the parallel port go for it! you will not have much for I/O :(  but you may be able to get it to work!

Best of luck
Brian
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Sweep on November 18, 2006, 03:32:45 AM
Oh no ...getting very worried with all this talk of I/O and PLC's  ???
I understand that if I want to get this thing going then I will have to spend some cash, something even someone from Yorkshire has to accept from time to time.
I have been looking at a 'boxes' from a company called Conqueror (CNC1) which costs £600, or card only (MPC5) for £399, and also one from StepmasterNC at $299USD but if you can point me in a better direction I would be glad to accept your advice. If the Mach people have worked in cooperation with a 'box' builder please point me down that road.
If it can only be made to work by buying and programming a PLC then i'll probably pass on the machine; Mach3 (superb), I have already had it working in simulation and have drawn, uploaded dxf into Lazycam, and run the program from my laptop, but I have no experience whatsoever on programming.

http://www.stepmasternc.com/stepmasternc10606_010.htm
http://www.eaziform.co.uk/phpwcms/index.php?cnc1

Thanks again ...Richard
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Hood on November 18, 2006, 04:08:05 AM
All of this can be fairly straightforward but there is a bit of learning involved but its not too hard to learn. If you ignore the toolchanger for the time being you can get this up and running quite easily, how much you will have to spend will depend on things such as whether your motors are useable etc. If you get this thing for £200 or so grab it, even if you decide not to retrofit it I am sure you would get that easily on eBay.
Hood
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Sweep on November 18, 2006, 04:17:55 AM
Here are a couple of pics of the machine.
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: John S on November 18, 2006, 04:59:06 AM
Do as Hood says, just grab it and then start to work with it.
You will have to spend money on it - fact of life - but you are getting this for peanuts.

Ignore the toolchanger and just manually swap tools, 99% of home shop guys do anyway and a lot of small commercial guys.

The problem is at the moment you need a lot of expertise to perform this conversion, not being funny but you don't have it at the moment so go for the simple XYZ conversion, run the machine for a while whilst the learning curve improves and later you will be in a better position to convert the toolchanger.

Trying to do it all at once on the learning level you are on is very daunting and you are more liable to either not finish it or get disenchanted with the conversion.
On the plus side it can be done, has been done and in Mach3 and this forum you will get loads of help to allow you to do this.
First get the machine and then seek advise on converting it to Mach3.

The best of luck and I hope it goes OK for you.

John S.

Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Sweep on November 18, 2006, 05:31:04 AM
I think it is good advice to ignore the toolchanger for the time being.
I appreciate that even if I get the machine for next to nothing the upgrade will cost. From your (anyone's) experience just how much will it cost? This is what I really need to know. Will the StepmasterNC 'box' look after the XYZ for $299USD or is there a 'special box' that will cost £1000's? All I need is an idea as I really want to buy this machine to run as my own and not pass-on on ebay. If I can't afford the upgrade then i'll say no to the Triac as I don't want it stood idle as a nice conversation piece.

Thanks ...Richard
Bradford
England
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: John S on November 18, 2006, 06:45:39 AM
Richard,

Hard to say, from the picture this machine looks to have type 34 short steppers and from experience / old age / sad memory [ delete as necessary ] these motors tended to be high amperage, often 5 or 6 amps.
In this case the driver box you have listed won't do as it's not rated high enough. You need details off the motor if possible or other Denford owners.

The driver box you have listed is just a boxed version of the 4 axis board, they do a three axis board for less but to be honest I'm wary of these type of boards as they have little or no protection afforded to the board or back to the computer and if one drive pops the whole board is toast.

This is only preference but I much prefer separate drives as if there is a problem it's only one drive to replace.

Bringing bits in from the states can pay because of the £ to $ rate but often you get hit for customs and duty so it often works out that the $$ price equals the ££ price.
Arc Euro at http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk do stepper drives here in the UK at decent prices and are readily available on short notice.

John S.
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Chaoticone on November 18, 2006, 08:22:44 AM
Hello Bradford,
    I hope this helps, I converted a manual mill to a three axis cnc using steppers. (3 1780 oz. in.) If your machine is sound mechanically, your motors work, limits switches are working, etc. it can be done for very little expense. I spent about $700.00 US on the components you will need. Power supply, drives, (3 Gecko 201s) breakout board, cable, 5v, 12v, brick power supply. Assuming you have a PC, Mach, and some wire allready. You may not even need the power supplies if the machine has one you can use. :)
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Sweep on November 18, 2006, 08:48:32 AM
Thanks for your input John S & Chaoticone.
The prices for the components seems ok, even if I budget a shade higher by purchasing them in England. Usually $700 ends up equaling £700! With prices in this area I can afford to put that into it straight away and not have to save up my pennies for months on end.
Question is can you all cope with the endless requests for advise?

...Richard

...Clueless in Yorkshire
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Chaoticone on November 18, 2006, 08:55:43 AM
LOL, My wife and kids have been training me for this for years. :D
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Hood on November 18, 2006, 07:03:48 PM
In the worst case you are looking at three steppers, three drives and a breakout, As John S said the steppers can be had from Arc Euro for about £80 each, the Drives can be had from them as well but as I have never used them I cant say they or good or bad. I use Gecko drives (G202) and they are about £80 each delivered from the USA, I use a PMDX breakout board which is about £40 if I remember correctly, so add that all up and it comes to about £500. If your motors are OK then that saves £240, you get the idea ;)
 I did my BOSS Bridgeport for £1500 but that included the Mill itself, a touch screen, MPG etc all of which were not necessities. (well the mill was a necessity ;)  )
Hood
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: John S on November 18, 2006, 08:11:30 PM
Hood steppers suitable for this mill work out at about £40 each.
i have used Arc's drives and found them to be OK.
In fact I had an upset the other week and managed to clear a problem up I had had for a while with some Gecko 210's.

I crashed my Z axis one Sunday, my fault, right tool, wrong offset and hit the vise jaws with a 20mm end mill. Not a hard smash, the jaws will clean up at 20 to 30 thou and the cutter took a light regrind to get back to standard but it took the Z drive Gecko out.
Full blown burn out, all Mosfets fried and didn't blow the fuse.

Fortunately had a new drive and fitted it, ran rest of Sunday and all day Monday, switched of Monday night OK.
Switched on Tuesday Morning and no Z drive again, can't see a problem inside the drive but it's dead, again fuse OK.

Had a spare Arc drive so swapped the micro steps to 8 from 10 and fitted it. ran two air test runs and put it to work.

Now since converting to Gecko drives the Z has lost steps on programs with many short Z moved like canned cycle drilling.
After 1400 odd hoes I can be up to 12 thou out, not a real problem as they are all thru holes but annoying.

Tried all sorts of help, leading edge, trailimg edge, pulse width, pulse space etc, etc, from Ian Eagland at Ahha and Mariss at Gecko but still lost steps.
When I swapped to the Arc drive this problem disappeared without doing anything.

On the X3 I have just converted I have used the C11G breakout board from Arturo Duncan at http://www.cnc4pc.com
This is a nice board as it has the relays on board, charge pump and can run the spindle via a VFD or even a DC speed board.

John S.
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Hood on November 19, 2006, 04:32:36 AM
John
 Yes I see now its not a big mill, the pics didnt load properly last night when I got home so I wasnt sure what size it was.Good to hear about the chinese drives working well and surprising to hear about the G210, I have had G201 and G202 and they run sweet.
 Hope I didnt put Richard off by stating the price of the steppers as I know he will not regret getting this mill, and with a bit of luck the motors he has will do anyway.
 Hood
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: John S on November 19, 2006, 04:58:30 AM
No Hood I hope you haven't put him off, for what he's got to pay for this mill it needs buying even if a conversion isn't imediate on the cards.
If he doesn't he'll kick himself later.
He says he wants one to do up and work and not a conversational piece but if it was me I'd put it in a corner and not talk about it until I was ready to fix it.  ;D

Never worked out why that Z axis was a problem, even loosing steps it worked OK for about 18 months, the other two axis don't loose steps.
I'm not fully convinced that the 210's and 201 are suitable for the larger old type 42's as fitted to the Bridgies and similar machines.
When you read of a problem it's always these motors that have the problem and I feel they are operating beyond their limits.

Modern motors are smaller and have less detent torque and don't seem to have these problems.
One fact I have noticed is that the track on the Gecko board from the Mosfets to the connectors are only about 2mm wide, on the Arc drives with them being bigger they are about 8mm wide.

John S.
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Hood on November 19, 2006, 05:28:51 AM
That is more than likely the problem John, I am kind of in the same boat with the lathe I am about to do, its got huge servos and most drives will be pushing their limits but I think the teknix ones might just do me.
Hood
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: BobsShop on November 19, 2006, 08:52:14 AM
Sweep,

I am running a StepmasterCNC controller with a Taig mini-mill.  I can't answer all your questions, but with regards to the StepMaster controller - it seems to work very well.  I had a problem with the first controller I received, but it was a protype.  Dealer agreed with me on that and provided me with a new unit under warranty.  I would buy from again if the need arose.

Bob @ BobsShop
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Sweep on November 19, 2006, 09:17:28 AM
The deal is done!  :)
Collecting the machine on Tuesday so will get some more of the spec and condition posted then.

Thanks to everyone so far

...Richard
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: John S on November 19, 2006, 03:32:11 PM
Good lad you know it makes sense,  :-*
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Sweep on November 28, 2006, 04:41:08 AM
Collected the machine yesterday. Got it home and it wouldn't fit through the door  :-[
Not much chance for sub-micron work when I couldn't measure to the nearest inch!
Had to strip off the two rear control panels and even then it was a tight squeeze.
I will have to put it to one side for a few weeks until I finish re-assembling my Smart & Brown lathe, as I don't want too many things in bits at one time, but after that I am sure there will be plenty more challenging questions for all you experts out there in Mach-land.

Thanks ...Richard

p.s. anyone got any spare BT35 toolholders?
Title: Re: Denford Triac ATC - guidance on updating to Mach3(?)
Post by: Brian Barker on November 28, 2006, 08:17:30 AM
BT35, I have a friend that has a few of the holders, but they are for his mill :(

Best of luck and good to hear you got it in the door !