Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Glad on October 27, 2010, 05:36:46 PM
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Hello everybody.
New here and this is my first post. Hope I’m in the right forum. I have a Sherline 3 axis (flashcut motors/xylotex board) mini mill running Mach3. I want to run Sherline rotary table, but have only 3 axis controller. Is it possible to disconnect X axis (I don’t need it for what I want to do) and hook up rotary table to that axis? If it is possible what do I need to change in configuration? Rotary table I intend to use is a Sherline 4" CNC rotary table with stepper motor P/N 8730.
Thank you for your help.
Glad.
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You could but you will have to make sure the power is off before disconnecting or connecting or you will likely blow the drive.
You could do things several ways but the easiest and probably the best would be to make a new profile and set Y Z and A up in it.
Hood
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Thanks Hood.
Trying to find how to create a new profile. Is there a tab or a button someware?
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If you have the Mach3 Loader Icon on your desktop you can open that then choose to create a profile, you can either clone your one you have already or have one with default values. If cloning one just type the name you want the new one to be then clcik on the profile you are using on the left side and click OK. If with default just type the name you want then choose the default values box and click OK.
Probably easiest to clone yours then all you will have to do is disable the X and enable and set up the A.
Hood
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Oh meant to say if you dont have the loader icon you can go to the Mach3 folder on your drive and click on Mach3.exe and it will do the same.
Hood
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I have a Mach3 icon/loader. When I start the program it is not prompting me for a project but loading an existing one.
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Go into Mach 3, Ports & Pins, disable X, enable A, assign the pins that were on X to the A axis. You should be able to leave the pins set up this way and just switch between which axis are enabled. Both X & A wouldnt be able to be enableed a the same time since the pins are the same. You will also have to gfo into general config also in Mach and select angular for your A axis. Then go into motor tuning and select 360 for the steps, accel and velocity will have to be tinkered with until it behaves correctly.
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It doesnt prompt you, It lets you select an XML or create one from an existing file. You then edit a copy of one so your original is unmolested (and if your settings dont work you can return to a successful profile/XML). Try to always leave the Mach Mill/ Mach turn etc as it is original, edit a copy. Dont ask me why I know that. Also before long most of those settings will mean something. It takes a while. If you look at the top of the screen when Mach is open, it will have a series of options (File, Config, Function Cfg's, View etc). This is where all of the settings changes will be.
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Thanks for help everybody!
I'll try all suggestions. Have a god day.
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For a first post, you jumped in big. A axis? Were you having any problem with the first 3 prior or have you just not used it too much yet?
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Btw I use my Sherline rotary table occasionally as you intend to do. It is actually pretty fun and allows the Sherline to actually cut pretty fast in relation to not spinning the part. I am/was just beginning to hand code to accomplish wrench flats and such. Quite different than Cad but still cool. Enjoy.
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;) I’m using my mill for a little more than a year now. No problems with anything so far.
I’m a watchmaker (hobbyist) doing engravings and 3D machining. Having fun and trying new things. Trying to introduce rotary table to my setup but never done setup, modeling or machining with it. Ordered Sherline rotary table (Sherlinedirect.com running special in October). Talk to them and found out that table has 6 wires coming out of motor. My Xylotex board has 4 wires input per axis. Trying to figure out how to rewire or make an adaptor to run 6 wires table on 4 wires board.
Glad.
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Glad,
You can wire the motors differently depending on what motor characteristics you want. The Gecko site provides a nice read on the advantages and
disadvantages of wiring them differently. In the end you'll only use 4 wires to the drive.
RICH
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Thanks Rich.
I'll definitely check Gecko site.
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From Stepper Motor Basics / Gecko site
RICH
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Rich, Funny you show that. I run my Sherline table with my Hobby Cnc Pro controller and it works great. Recentlly I configured a G540 to another machine of mine (Dyna DM2400) and all 3 axis work except the A though I am not sure why just yet. I would enjoy doing a back to back test of the Hobby Cnc Pro against the G540 with the same power supply. I like the G540 and its simplicity but havent seen any performance advantages. I cant really compare apples to apples though since the machines are entirely different regarding leadscrews and gear reductions. I dont really want to do the comparo, just curious of the differences. I really havent tried to analyze the issue or even double checked that output of the G540 with a known good configuration for a stepper (swapping x,y and or z into the A port and changing the tuning values). I was in the process of building jumpers and other small wiring jobs and briefly tested it. Because I am using the stepper on 2 different machines, my jumpers can and or will vary the pins and hopefully it will work. Not high on the priority list just yet.
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Fastest1 , RICH, can I use program like ArtCam or Phino to create a tool path for the rotary table? Or it has to be done in Mach3 or similar software?
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Glad,
I know nothing about ArtCam or Rhino. In general i would say that as long as the program can generate the Gcode in a format
supported by Mach and your machne is setup accordingly it should work.
RICH
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Thanks RICH.
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Cnc Wrapper and BobCad both have a wrapping feature. Others I am not sure of. Besides the hand coding that I have done with the rotary table, I have never really used it. I did do a small cylinder with some engraving around it mostly as a test.
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Fastest1,
Wrapping feature… Hmmm.. I don’t know anything about it. Time to start reading. I was trying to avoid manual code writing as much as possible hoping that ArtCam will take care of code generating for all 4 axis, but I never thought it is going to be easy to setup and run. Getting table two days from today and will start experimenting.
Glad.
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Fastest1,
Wrapping feature
Hmmm.. I dont know anything about it. Time to start reading. I was trying to avoid manual code writing as much as possible hoping that ArtCam will take care of code generating for all 4 axis, but I never thought it is going to be easy to setup and run. Getting table two days from today and will start experimenting.
Glad.
Glad,
The choice of wrapping software vs. manual code etc. all depends on what you are intending to do with the rotary. If for example you intend to engrave on a cylinder then you definitely need ‘wrapping’ software. However if you are just indexing, for say cutting a gear, then manually entering the code is very straight forward and hardly worth the fuss of a dedicated app. Since you intend to use axes Y, Z and A then that would seem to eliminate engraving on a cylinder, (since that would only cut a single varying depth groove) so I assume the latter. (Engraving on a cylinder is normally axes X, Z and A, i.e. Y is converted to A.)
Just to make sure we are on the same page, the RT A axis is parallel with X, B is parallel with Y and C is parallel with Z.
And as others have suggested, do make a separate profile for each setup. I have for instance ‘Sherline-A’ and ‘Sherline-C’.
Regardless, not to worry, once you get your hands on the hardware it will all come together. This group will get you over any rough spots.
As a fellow Sherline (and Horological) hobbyist I predict that you will find this to be the most bang for the buck of any Sherline accessory. Also I give you less than six months before you miss the fun of using all four axes and invest in a fourth driver. For example, by using the RT in the C-axis you can use an ordinary end mill to cut a gear! Lotsa fun!
Al
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Hi Al,
Coming from you it is all sounds easy and very optimistic. I started believing that 4th axis is not a big deal :).
My first challenge will be to rewire Sherline stepper from 6 wires to 4 (Xylotex board).
Second, is to properly setup table in Mach3.
Last but not list, to produce a G-code to engrave patterns on a flat surface using Y, Z and A axis.
The idea is to install RT flat on an X/Y table perpendicular to Z. Attach lathe type of tool bit on Z axis pointing down perpendicular to X/Y. Z axis will go up and down driving tool bit into the engraved part installed in RT regulating engraving depth. Spindle will not rotate. Y axis will move in longitudinal direction fore. and aft. from outside toward center of the engraved part. So, when all three axis moving simultaneously: A rotates clockwise holding eng. part, Z drives non rotating tool in and out of the eng. part, and Y moving RT (eng. part) fore or aft.
I hope my explanation makes some sense.
Glad.
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Glad, I’ll try to help as best I can.
>Coming from you it is all sounds easy and very optimistic. I started believing that 4th axis is not a big deal .
No big deal getting it installed and set up but depending on what you want to do with it, the sky is the limit so far as complexity goes.
> My first challenge will be to rewire Sherline stepper from 6 wires to 4 (Xylotex board).
Sounds like you have good input and a handle on that part.
> Second, is to properly setup table in Mach3.
The Sherline stepper is 1.8 deg/step or 200 steps/rev (360/1.8) and the rotary table has a 72:1 gear ratio or 5 deg/step (360/72). So for single stepping that would be 200/5 = 40 steps/deg. Multiply the 40 times the micro stepping jumper setting on the Xylotex board, e.g. if it’s set to 8 then 40 X 8 = 320 steps per deg for the Mach3 entry. The velocity and accel numerical values will likely be drastically different from your X, Y and Z due to the deg/min units. Presumably your linear axes are already set-up so here is what I would do. Open the spreadsheet at this link:
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,16315.0.html
Enter the input data for both linear and rotary axes. Enter your known reliable max rapid velocity for a linear axis and read the corresponding stepper RPM. Then enter that RPM in the rotary column and read the result steps per degree for the Mach3 velocity entry. That way you are comparing apples to apples (RPM). The accel will need to be changed in the same proportion as the velocity.
>Last but not list, to produce a G-code to engrave patterns on a flat surface using Y, Z and A axis.
>The idea is to install RT flat on an X/Y table perpendicular to Z. Attach lathe type of tool bit on Z axis pointing >down perpendicular to X/Y. Z axis will go up and down driving tool bit into the engraved part installed in RT >regulating engraving depth. Spindle will not rotate. Y axis will move in longitudinal direction fore. and aft. from >outside toward center of the engraved part. So, when all three axis moving simultaneously: A rotates clockwise >holding eng. part, Z drives non rotating tool in and out of the eng. part, and Y moving RT (eng. part) fore or aft.
>I hope my explanation makes some sense.
You may have lost me here. Sounds like your rotary table is going to be mounted flat on the X-Y table with it’s rotational axis vertical, i.e. parallel with the mill Z-axis. If so, then the rotary is now the C-axis (following accepted convention; A-axis is parallel with the mill X-axis). On the other hand if this is so, i.e., you are engraving a flat pattern on a flat surface, then why use the rotary? Wouldn’t the X, Y and Z do the same thing? And BTW converting Gcode X values to equivalent C values is not a trivial exercise. Been there, but sometimes it’s worth it. I would suggest that you invest in a 90 deg mount for the rotary and mount it on the X-Y table with it’s axis parallel with the mill X-axis and practice some cylindrical engraving first. Configure as X, Z, A. Lots of free wrapping software to convert Y values to A and I think you will find it quicker to get a feel for the rotary.
Hope this helps
Al
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Hi Al,
Thank you for a very informative reply.
You are correct; in my setup it should be a C axis. I wasn't familiar with the right hand rule. I hope that setup you described in your post is still good moving from wrong A axis to correct C. I can use XY and Z axis for engraving on a flat surface if I could use rotating engraving bit or diamond drag. In my case I can't. I have to use lathe type tool bit with a single cutting edge producing circular patterns.
Think about my setup as a Rose Engine machine in vertical position. I don't know if you are familiar with the RE but here is a link to visualize what I'm trying to do. http://www.rgmwatches.com/about_rgm/engine_turning.php and click on video on that page. If you have an idea or suggestion how to achieve same effect without RT I'll appreciate it very much.
Thank you.
Glad
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Glad, does your tool swivel? If not it seems like it would dig in at changes in direction. Never mind, I just watched the whole video. Incredible. Beautiful work. As if my eyes arent already getting bad, having to work via a loupe would be difficult.
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That link shows some highly detailed engraving that is for sure. It is easy to miss all of the uses for these machines. When you say mount a lathe tool stationary to the Z axis, this is what I think of and cant wait to try
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8l6lH4ydd4
This guy constantly amazes me with ideas I have never seen or heard of. Not that nobody else knows them, just not that my experiences have placed me around solutions like them. Good luck regardless of how you want to use it.
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Hi guys…
Major screw up… I revered RT from 6 to 4 wires, and I don’t think I have made a mistake in that, but… After I fired up machine and tried to move RT something loudly popped on the board and I smelled smoke. Machine is dead, I’m 0confused and mad at myself. Dumb mistake – expensive smoke. The worst part I have no idea what went wrong…
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Though it will be a small setback, there are a few of us who have done this or similar. I did fry my speed control board while interfacing it with a Homanns board for control via Mach 3.