Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach3 under Vista => Topic started by: Tj256 on October 08, 2010, 03:02:14 PM
-
Sorry about the title, but I am beyond frustrated after dropping 6 grand and not getting any support from MaxNC on this issue.
So by work I mean reliably. I have 95% operation of my new machine, but every now and again an axis just stops. Sometimes it humms, sometimes it pops the fuse on the controller. But this is happening with no load on the machine and no tool, and the motors running slowly with minimal acceleration.
What I think is happening is that the feedback loop in the controller is getting confused about where the motor is, and getting it wrong. It then gives the wrong stepping signals to the motor. When the motor doesn't move, it assumes it's stuck and gives up.
Now how it gets into this state is the question. I am suspecting that it has to do with the "busy" pin. The controller says "Don't send me any more quadrature!" but for whatever reason I am getting a step or two. Then the controller gets confused. At least, this is my current theory.
Anyone else having issues like this? Any suggestions? I am starting to regret ever purchasing a MaxNC product.. >:(
Thanks!
-
Just found another post on this board where someone rebuilt their MaxNC controller due to similar frustrations. I am really hoping this is a "me" problem, but when I buy a product and it comes with software, I usually expect it to be configured properly. Maybe my expectations are too high for this kind of stuff, but as I read more on MaxNC it seems to me that many people do not think their controller is very good.
-
Disclaimer: MaxNC is not junk. I tried to fix that in the title but it won't let me.
-
Changed part of the thread title..........maybe one should not type when in the reactive mood. ;)
RICH
-
I've traced the problem to the encoders getting out of sync with the motors. It has nothing to do with MachIII or Vista. It appears MaxNC's controller doesn't like it if the encoder doesn't match what it thinks it should be. I could go the route of trying to debug this controller, but I'm just going to replace it with a Geckodrive.
-
Turns out it wasn't anything to do with Vista!
The MaxNC controller has a 12 volt 2 amp transformer in it. Now 2 amps to run 4 3 amp steppers just seems kinda dumb. If I run the machine off of a bench power supply with a higher voltage of 24 volts and 10 amps, it works just fine.... at least in the couple of tests I ran.
So it would seem that I was sold a defective controller, however I'd say the design is flawed. My theory is that the larger steppers (I bought the 160 oz/in option) are just too much for their controller. Either that, or they forgot to beef up my power supply.
Unfortunately I have no idea if any of this was a mere accident or I just got a defective unit since the company has not returned dozens of emails and phone calls for weeks and weeks.
I am still going to replace the controller with the GeckoDrive because frankly I just don't trust this controller.
-
Did you get an xml file from them for using Mach and for what version of Mach?
Can you post the xml and also info about the drive?
What exactly did you purchase?
I would think that the things should work for what they sell....at those prices .....very well.
RICH
-
Thanks Rich,
I'll get you the XML file this evening, along with the version of MachIII that max sold me. Thanks so much for responding!
I agree-- for that much it should work. I have a similar machine (MaxNC10) that provided many years of useful service, which is why I find it unusual that a MaxNC15CL machine produced 8 years later wouldn't have been vetted of all these issues many times over. Especially for the cost! I was hoping it was my fault but it really seems like I was either shipped a defective controller or the wrong one for the setup they sold me. I have been trying to contact the company to no avail for many weeks, so I have been forced to try to resolve this on my own.
The machine is a MaxNC 15 with the larger motors and 18" x table. It's hooked to MachIII via the parallel port in the usual way running under "Max mode". The same problem occurs on 2 of my PC's, both are just plain vista installs with no other software installed or running. Those same machines run my OL maxnc machines just fine, but again it's the OL version.
The symptoms are easy to reproduce: Run any program without any tool and within a few minutes an axis will cut out and usually pop the fuse on the controller. Issuing a "reset" clears the trouble. I have traced the trouble down to the encoders getting out of sync with the motors. The behavior of the controller in this condition isn't documented anywhere, but my experience shows that the controller simply "gives up" and the machine carries on as usual. This is a dangerous situation as I've discovered when my Z axis gave out when drilling a hole. The table then starts to slide and the bit is destroyed and launches.
Upon taking apart their controller, I noticed a 4 amp 12 volt transformer (sorry, it IS 4 amps, not 2) powering all 4 axis. These are 3 amp stepper motors, so it seemed underpowered to me. I am able to get better results by running off an external power supply but alas I had my first failure yesterday so even this wasn't a real fix.
It is possible MaxNC sold me the "wrong" controller for my product. Perhaps there are multiple versions for the different machines. The first controller that came with my machine would die randomly due to a loose connection in the printer cable. They swapped out my board with the one I'm running now. But since I can't get ahold of them there is no way of knowing.
I'll find out the version/xml info this evening for you.
Thanks,
-Tj
-
Tj,
I or maybe someone else may be able to assist you if you get the info requested posted. We may ask for more.
I am not going to pass judgement on the manufacturer as that is between you and they. You have a new machine, so....
remember that if you do something recomended by anyone you may void a warrenty. That said, lets see how the folks here
can be of help.
It is possible MaxNC sold me the "wrong" controller for my product.
I don't know, but will take a look at their web site and see what they provide when time permits.
You shouldn't be blowing fuses.
Until then, no comments........
RICH
-
TJ,
I couldn't find anything specific on the maxcnc site for their drives. If you have info make sure you post it.
As expected, they also don't provide info on using Mach with their machines. I would expect that since they want you to use their controlling software.
As i looked through the manual there was mention of limitations on what versions of windows would work with "their" software. And specificaly it said no operating system greater than W xp home. The above is not relavent in sense since you are using Mach.
The modes which you can select in Mach, namely , Max CL Mode is not covered in any of the manuals i have. There are some postings on the Yahoo group which you may want to have a look at just for info. One of them says that pin outs are automaticaly set for the Max cl mode and you can't change them and thus can't set them individualy ( hard wire changes only .....i guess if something is wired wrong).
Can anybody shed some light on that Mach Mode? ???
I just scanned the info and surely i missed something.......
Here is what i am thinking and frankly can be way off:
The Maxcnc driver when used with their software may be a closed loop system ( it controls the steps, adjusts, and may not fault ). Now mach sends pulses but is not a closed loop system , the steps are buffered, sent once, and you can't "put the cat back into the bag once it's out" so to speak.
Ok servo guys .....shed some light........ ;)
There may be additional quirks with their drives, it's DOS based ........
So what i am seeking is this:
Just what are the limitations of using their drives with MACH3 / if any? ???
RICH
-
I've scoped out the controller and it seems to take quadrature from MaxNC. The actual loop closing is done in their controller. It seems like it will retry a few times if the stepper doesn't actually move, but it gives up and kills that axis in the event of an "error". All this happens internally in their PIC chip, located in the box on the back of the machine.
I can run 99% successfully with an external power supply, replacing their internal one which seems woefully inadequate at 4 amps, 12 volts. Especially considering the geckodrive runs at 48 volts and 10 amps to do the same thing.
I'm running Mach III Version R3.033, and my xml file is attached.
I think they're underdriving their motors, missing steps, and throwing up their hands. Maybe this is something that can be fixed via their tech support but I can't even get in contact with them. I'm ripping it off and installing geckodrive :-P
-
TJ,
I deliberately didn't comment on the power supply. It's an issue by itself in my opinion. I agree with you that it is inadequate, and frankly, they should address that issue, or at the very least provide their reasoning behind the design / selection for it being adequate and why it should not be considered a problem.
There is plenty of info to be found on the Gecko site, their drives are highly rated, and they do respond with advice relative to their products.
That's my experience as a hobbiest with Gecko and hopefully yours will be the same.
BTW, i thank you keeping things in the context of getting your machine up and running and not washing dirty laundry here.
RICH
-
Rich,
Gecko has been amazing. I've gotten personal attention from their engineers like you wouldn't believe. Their customer service is top notch as are their products. I can't say enough good things about them. This is even before I have the thing completely running, but I don't have any worries that it won't work.
I do have theory on why my machine is broken out of the box-- It was ordered with the more powerful motors. I suspect that if I hadn't ordered that option, things might actually have worked. But that's only a theory.
I'm a hobbiest CNC guy at the moment. Dreams of making prototypes of a product. So I invested quite a bit of cash (for me) in this machine. So it was pretty earth shattering to discover that it didn't work right. But fortunately there are so many inexpensive options for drivers, and the MachIII software is so flexible, I am not worried that I'll get her up and running.
I did speak with one of the engineers (Chris) some time ago at MaxNC before my order shipped. They turned me on to MachIII and said it worked fine with their machine. They acknowledged that their old DOS solution needed to be replaced, and the two options seemed to be their own custom software running on Win95, DOS, or purchasing one of their custom laptops set up with Win95 (no networking). He mentioned they were working on a new controller box that plugged into the PC via USB. Now *THAT* sounds like the controller I want. ;)
I hope they're doing fine. Like I said, I fell in love with my MaxNC10 but I'm just very confused as to why this new machine has had so many issues and no response for so long from MaxNC. I have to say I'm a bit upset, but that doesn't really help. At this point I just want to do what I need to and move on.
-
I hope that didn't count as dirty laundry :)
Anyway, thanks for the help Rich!
-
I've got my GeckoDrive G540 up and running on one axis so far, and the difference is amazing. The original MaxNC drives whined very loudly and ran the motors with a growling sound. The Geckodrives don't whine at all, and produce a very satisfying hum when running. This is even before I've tried to tune them up by adjusting the trim pot. I'm actually glad the original drivers blew up because even if they were working, I would never go back. I also have much more holding torque than before, especially given that I'm running at 48 volts, 1.7 amps, up from 12 volts 1 amp.
The big question is whether or not I am missing steps: Will this new controller experience the same problems the MaxNC controller was experiencing? I am going to be no, but I can't be sure until I try to do repeatability tests. There is still a chance the MaxNC controller was shutting down because the motors were binding randomly from some mechanical issue with my machine. But that seems unlikely.
I am also unsure what to do with my encoders. I don't really want to abandon them, and hope I can make use of them at least for some kind of check that shuts down MachIII if the motors get out of sync with the position.
-
Tj256,
Glad to hear that you are getting it sorted - I don't think you will be disappointed with the Gecko's, plenty of folks using them with no problems.
(MaxNC started getting into trouble a year or so back, eventually found it too much and went fishing around mid 2010).
Tweakie.
-
I was reading through the thread and I'm glad you are having luck with the Gecko. I have been renewing my interest in CNC with my MAX10 I bought back in '05, but never really used. Gecko from what I have gathered, was going to be my backup plan should the original controller give out.
The time period that you were having issues with your machine was as Tweakie put it, when MaxNC "went fishing." From what I have learned through the yahoo MaxNC group, the company was sold back to the original owners and is open again operating under the name Ximotion. Their website (ximotion.com) is very thin at the moment, and I haven't seen any changes on it in the weeks that it has been up. I'm hoping that a revival is the works.
-
you cant go wrong with putting the G540 on the maxnc, it will be a world of difference. I myself have a very long history with the JUNK maxnc puts into their controllers. it is just that.... JUNK. They dont last, mine blew out twice within the first year. You cannot get support, and if you do, it takes months on turn around. But, if you want to spend money, they will answer the phone and emails!
I think i was the first one to put a G540 on a maxnc 15. MAN OHHH MAN!!!!!! Its a different machine when you do that!
I wonder if my conversion thread is still active on the cnczone. If so, go look at what I was able to to.