Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: mbwittig on October 21, 2006, 11:20:05 PM
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Hello,
I saw in a shop a black thing you could put in a collet and look through to find the edge of a part to high accuracy. Anyone know where to get one of those? I did a google search but didnt find anything.
Thanks,
Mike
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Look for a toolmakers microscope. Be careful to make sure that the crosshairs are centered when you use it.
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Laser Centre & Edge Finder with 6mm Dia Shank(Reference #LCEF..)
The Laser Center/Edge Finder ® was introduced by SDA Mfg. at the Visalia, CA "Men, Metal & Machines" show on October 4th 2004.
Designed to replace traditional wigglers and mechanical or electronic edge finders
6mm shank - can be used with the smallest of machines
Precision edge finding without readjusting for radius of edge finding tool
Quickly locate center punch marks or scribe line intersections
Can be used with drill presses, to set mill head angle, realign lathe tailstock after taper cutting, lathes with 4-jaw chuck setup or to align the vice on the mill table.
Product Overview:
The Laser Center/Edge Finder ® is a new tool for your mill that will save setup time. For the new Home Shop Machinist it will eliminate the frustrations and doubts of learning the century old Indirect Method with the conventional Edge Finders or Wiggler.
The Laser Center/Edge Finder ® is a Direct Method center or edge finder. Current Center/Edge Finders are Indirect Methods. Current Finders require the Mill operator to determine where the edge of the material is by imposing sufficient pressure on the finder to just slightly bump the material and then move over one-half the diameter of the edge finder to locate the true edge of the material. Another accepted method is a center/edge finder that has a spring loaded conical disc that kicks sideways when touching the edge of the material and the Mill operator then moves the mill table over one-half the diameter of the edge finder to locate the true edge of the material.
The mechanical/electrical center/edge finders function as the mechanical ones do except that instead of a spring loaded offset disc it utilizes electrical continuity to determine when the edge finder has contacted the material (not always useful on non-conducting material). The Mill operator hears an audible signal or a light comes on indicating contact has been made. The operator must still add half the diameter of the edge finder to determine the true edge of the material.
The Laser Center/Edge Finder ® only requires the Mill operator to move the table under the small Laser beam until the laser light shows that the light is at the edge of the material to locate the true edge of the material. If the Mill operator is attempting to position the Mill quill to a Center Punched mark on the material, the table is moved until the laser light centers on the punched mark. In both instances this Direct Method eliminates the most common mistake of forgetting to add half the diameter of the conventional center/edge finder to locate the true edge of the material.
SHANK DIAMETER: - 6mm
OVERALL DIAMETER:- 20mm
OVERALL LENGTH: 70mm
LASER MODULE: Class IIIa (<5 mW) 640-660nm 4.5v
BEAM SPOT DIAMETER: 0.1mm-0.5mm (Dependent on surface reflectivity)
BATTERIES: LR44 1.5V (3X) (batteries included)
CLICK THE IMAGE FOR A LARGER PICTURE
OR CUT AND PASTE THE FOLLOWING INTO YOUR TOOLBAR TO VIEW A SHORT VIDEO DEMONSTRATION
http://www.lasercenteredgefinder.com/video2.html
•No Calculations
•No Guesswork
•Works From 1"- 4" Away
Price inc UK mainland carriage: £48.47 £56.95 Including VAT(appl European union only) at 17.5%
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_What_s_New___137.html&CatalogBody
How about this type
Graham.
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These people have the optical ones.
http://www.jlindustrial.com/
I do like the one Graham suggested better though. :)
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Only problem with the laser one is its questionable accuracy, 0.1 to 0.5mm is not that great :( I was dissapointed with the edge finder I made when I could only get it to 0.01mm, gonna work on that again one day to make adjustment easier ;)
Hood
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If you want the ultimate setting device, have a look at this.
I use one of these nearly every day.
http://www.mahr.com/index.php?NodeID=10865&SourceID=10862&LayerMenuID=3
Graham.
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Looks expensive, any idea of the cost?
Hood
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About 300.00 quid.
Graham.
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Not too bad for what you get, any idea of where to get in the UK?.
Hood
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I got mine last year from Mahr UK, direct, it was on offer at the time and I think I paid 250.00+vat
Graham.
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Here's what I am talking about, it looks like this:
(http://64.151.65.228/optical_edgefinder.jpg)
You put it in a collet and into the spindle, then look through the top window. You see a crosshair in it magnified and simply move the table while looking through it to line the edge or corner of the part up with the crosshairs. Because its under magnification, you can get it very accurately located, and quickly.
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Thanks Graham.
mbwittig
I often see them on eBay in the UK but they tend to go for silly money.
Hood
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whats its proper name, do you know hood?
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I know what you are asking about, but the last time one of them was used Noah was building a boat ;)
I don't think anybody makes new ones, all the second user ones have been dropped and are not accurate :(
Try the modern versions :)
Graham.
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Sorry been trying to remember what they are called, I think the ones I saw were made by Hedenhein (sp?) but I did a quick search and came up with this, not sure if its the same thing as from initial reading it sounds like it projects the crosshair image to the workpiece.
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=6254
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I used a USB video camera and it seemed to work very well :) You need to have it straight but that is not hard to do.. there is a video window in mach3 :)
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If you are still looking, Fine Centering Scope.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMAKA=GY06539332 ;D
$189.00
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Check out Edmund Suuply, they are an Optical supply house with about anything in optics, Might go on google and check optical tooling, I have one (not for sale and is geart for setups on milling.
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also known as a centering scope. See page 1394 of MSN current catalog, they have one listed. check www.mscdirect.com or call 800-645-7270.
the other possible source is edmund scientific www.edmund scientific.com....good luck, woudn't part with one once you get your hands on one..
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This is what I am using, it is a $19 usb camera, it will focus up to 1/8" from your target ( maybe even closer, I haven't tried closer because it blocks out all the light the closer you get). I mounted it on a shaft with three adjustment screws. All you do is chuck it up in your spindle lower down to your target and get it focused. Then first time you need to center it, do this by adjusting the three screws so
that when you rotate the spindle 360 deg by hand, the crosshairs stay in the exact same position. When that is done you have a mighty fine optical positioning device. I attached a picture of the camera, note the adjusting screws. Also is a screen shot of the actual video window, it is focused on a metal ruler, mm scale, the lines are 25.4 mils apart.
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Zarzul,
That camera looks real nifty. Is there a name/model on that unit?? I did a search on VideoWin USB Video Camera, and did not get back anything noteworthy.
Thanks,
David
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Zarzul,
Very Nice. ;) :o
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The web camera is a Micro Innovations model IC435C, It is available at a lot of the big computer stores, I got mine at a CompUSA.
I just got lucky with picking this camera to modify, the construction of the housing is perfect for mounting it to a shaft and you can get incredibly close to the object with its focus range.
The only modification is opening it up and drilling a small hole in the back to mount it to your shaft, and one other thing I did was to cut off about 3/16 of the lens hood, this is to allow you to get closer to your stock or what ever you are focusing on.
Interesting thing after I had mine mounted and checking it out, I was out on Ebay and found a guy who is selling the exact same camera on a shaft with a little flexible arm led lamp, for $159.
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hi zarzul
how did you get the cross hairs on .
regards sneakym8
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zarzul
Ive got it ,sorry i didn't realise the hairs were part of Mach 3 video screen...
cheers
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Let us know how it works out. Maybe post a picture of your camera. I seem to be using mine more and more all the time. I find I have to occasionally recenter the camera, using the adjusting screws I built into the shank. You know you are centered when the video crosshairs stay precisely on a mark that you put on your target as you hand rotate the spindle.
Someone else posted a link to Centercam, a software program that has other tools for using a camera in the same way but it has measuring tools for distance and angles.
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This, by all appearances, is a wonderful tool. Do you know the cost?
vr/rik
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If you mean the web camera.
The cost is $19 for the camera. I listed the part number in my post a few replys earlier. You will need to make a shaft to hold it that is
adjustable, I can post a sketch if you are interested.
Someone mentioned in an earlier post that I should make these and sell them in the "FOR SALE AREA" of the posts, if there is enough
interest in this I will. Send me an email if you are interested, I will check this weekend on how available the cameras are. I have quite a bit of experience in anodizing aluminum with my projects I have been doing on underwater HID dive lights, and I could offer an anodized
shaft that would be more durable.
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Zarzul, I sent you a personal message.
Brett
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hey yeah post the drawing for the shank
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Just bought one of these little puppy's for $18.91 delivered.
Got it here
http://www.provantage.com/micro-innovations-ic435c~7MCRC00V.htm
Edit: They had 168 of them in stock.
Edit: 167 now.
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zar - please post a copy of the sketch of the shaft and adjustment attachment you mentioned.
Thanks
Bob@BobsShop - Always looking for the Edge and the Center
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Here is a sketch of the shaft,
I use a 3 -48 screw, it fits real nicely inside the camera. Leave the screw a little loose. You can even put the screw in the camera and glue it. Then when the glue is set, gently screw it to your shaft leaving it just loose enough to deflect around.
The set screws should be placed 3 each 120 deg apart. screw them up snug to keep the camera steady and then start fine tuning the center.
You center it by chucking it up in the spindle, use your jog to center the crosshairs over a reference mark. Then rotate the spindle by hand 180 deg. the crosshairs will probably wander off the reference mark. adjust the set screws to get 1/2 of the distance back towards your mark. Then rotate 180 again. Use your jog controls to get back to the mark and repeat the steps until it doesnt move off the mark. The distance you are off of the mark when you rotate is the amount of accuracy you have.
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Is there any reason that the camera cannot be mounted offset from the spindle and pointed down at the 0,0 point with a 60° to 80° angle in a more permanent installation?
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Someone else talked about this a little. You can mount it offset from the spindle center but then you will need to measure and account for your offset. You will still want it pointing straight down, not at an angle, because at an angle the center will move as you move your z heigth.
I thought of doing it that way but it was not possible to have my camera 1/4" or closer to the target (which you will need to get the fine resolution of .001 or less) and mounted permanently. If resolution is not that critical you don't have to be so close to the workpiece 1" or greater, you could probably mount it permanently and use your tool offsets to account for camera position offset.
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Thanks Zarzul, I was thinking more along the lines of a camera with a higher magnification that could be mounted to the y carriage which would have a focal point of 8 to 10 inches.
This would then be fixed closer to a 80° angle. I believe someone suggested a long barrel type camera that is used on RV's etc for backing up, not sure where I read that to go back and find.
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Gary,
I suppose if you were mounting to your Y axis you wouldn't have any changes in heigth, except for material thickness variations.
Arnie
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http://cgi.ebay.com/Camera-mill-drill-inspection-CNC-CMM-NIST-XYZ-machining_W0QQitemZ250084096991QQihZ015QQcategoryZ25271QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Thanks Arnie, will have to do so playing with this one... I think it will work with the right camera
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Here's the one I built out of one of those eyeball camera's(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/usbcamera.jpg)
Don't laugh about it being crude as it works and was probably the first one to use the video window with Mach3 as I contacted Art to see if Mach could use an outside application we were playing with.
The rest is history thanks to Art.
It's just a steel 'pot' with 4 M4 holes tapped in so it adjusts like a 4 jaw. The camera is off the shelf but just had the back sawn off with a hacksaw :D This one is on a 5/8" spigot so it fits any collet you want to use although that's not written in stone.
It does work and works very well, it goes to shows with us on a converted X3 mill and this together with thread milling are the two main interests shown by potential customers to Mach3.
John S.
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I have some of these for sale, look in the bargain basement.
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I had already purchased one of the small cams mentioned previously (MicroInnovations) and then Arnie made me a shaft to use with it. The shaft is really nice - Arnie does nice work.
I did encounter a couple of problems that I thought might be of concern to someone else using a webcam with Mach 3. Sometimes the cam would not turn on - that happened both outside of Mach3 and when Mach3 was running. Other times Mach3 would freeze up after using the cam and I could not do anything. Lot of trial and errors trying to figure out the cause. After a lot of thought I stumbled on to the following:
Go into Control Panel and open Internet Options, then go Advanced and scroll down to Security - Look at the "Allow active content to run in files on my computer." If this item is not checked, check it to make the option active. I have not had any problems running the cam since I did that.
Although I can use a dial indicator to find center, using the cam is a treat and saves me from having to contort my neck and head trying to see the dial. I also am learing to jog the computer with a little more precision while using the cam and plan to use it as a visual edge finder while tracing paths in the conversational mode.
Bob @ BobsShop Next stop - Anyone for eye surgery using the cam, Mach3, and a cnc mill? ::) Nah!
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Hi,
I also bought one of these from Arnie. The quality of his work is very good!
-James Leonard
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Do tell. ;D Great even.
Brett
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Hey guys,
Thanks for the positive feed back. I have sold 9 of these now and have a couple of orders to fill again.
I find it real interesting to see what everyone is using these for.
It is interesting when folks share their web pages, lot of them are commercial sites, I go to their sites and look at the type of work they are doing, some pretty neat stuff.
Arnie
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I would have liked to purchase one of Arnie's neat mounted cameras but by the
time I convert to our AU dollars and pay postage it was not economic.
So I bought a camera local for $15AUD and made a mounting shaft.
Not as pretty as Arnie's anodized one but will do the trick.
Now to my question, when I have the video window open I can not jog with the keyboard.
I had thought that the best way would be to jog incrementally while watching the video to align the edge or feature.
Am I missing something here? Do I have a setting wrong that is preventing this? How do others do it?
Greg
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Greg,
It is just a little tricky, first you open the video window, once it is up and displaying the video, you click on the mach screen, it can be picky where you click, I usually click on the stop program button, then you are able to jog.
To shutdown the video window, first click on the stop video stream then close the video window.
Hey, how about some pictures of your camera setup?
Arnie
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Thanks Arnie
Here is a pic. Not as pretty as yours :)
This camera's shape did not lend itself easily to mounting like this but it works OK.
Because of the shape I ended up with four set screws instead of three.
The lens barrel was not firm in the body when I screwed it out to focus close,
so when I had it set I then used hot melt glue. That made it firm.
Played around with the "Hole Centre Wizard" by German Bravo. Works great with the camera.
Aligning an edge or centre punch mark is dead easy.
Greg
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Greolt,
Hey not too bad !!
It looks like it will work just fine. I see you had quite the challenge to work with that shape of a camera.
I lucked out with the camera I used, it was the first one I bought and it was a breeze to mount, especially compared to the trouble you must of had.
Arnie
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I find I have to occasionally recenter the camera, using the adjusting screws I built into the shank.
I picked up one of these units from Attoresearch on Ebay for QUITE a bit more than you are asking. It may have been before you started selling them as theirs was the only purpose built camera I could find at the time. The package from Attoresearch came with some interesting software for stitching images together and measuring things which I guess is really what they are charging for.
In any case...
I was also having to readjust the camera every so often to keep it centered and decided to open it up to find out what was slipping. It turns out the camera board is just floating around in the housing. There's a single screw though the case and board to hold it down at one edge. There aren't really any stops to fix the board in place so any flexing of the case can push the board around. Pushing on the "snapshot" button also causes the board to slide a bit.
As your mount adjusts the camera center externally, perhaps a few well placed dabs of electronics safe silicone would solve the readjustment problem for you.
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I bought a camera at Christmas, but when I set it up, it will work on "My Computer". Unfortunately when I try the video window n Mach3, it says "unable to start camera" or something similar.
I seem to have the right drivers - what am I missing ???