Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => Mach Screens => CVI MachStdMill (MSM) => Topic started by: DaveCVI on July 31, 2010, 11:07:39 AM

Title: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on July 31, 2010, 11:07:39 AM
Hi,

I need some feedback from MSM Probing/touch plate users.

If you have tried Probing and/or touch plate features of MSM, I would appreciate it if you would post in this thread and let me know if all is well or if you are having a problem (and if so what the problem is).
Please include in the post:
    Mach version
    MSM version
   PP or SS or ?
         if SS, the plugin version in use
   Probe brand

I'm asking for this feedback because I'm aware of multiple people that are using these abilities w/o any problem – on both parallel ports and Smooth Steppers.

Yet there is one fellow for whom probing won't work. In fact he sees the spindle move in direction opposite of what the code commanded. The trace logs show one thing and his video shows another.
We'll figure it out eventually, but I'm stumped at the moment.

I would really like to know if he is the only one seeing this type of major problem or not. If there are others, more information may help find a pattern that will point us to what is happening.

Given this one repeatable (for him, I can't make it happen) major bug report, I have to say that there appears there may be a gremlin hiding someplace in the MSM probing library.  So please be careful when trying out the probing or TP facilities.

I suggest using very slow probe feed rates to start.
For TP stuff Perhaps try a mobile TP with a set Z Zero operation to make sure that all is operating fine, before you send a sharp toll headed toward the TCP TP rigidly mounted to the table…..
For Probing operations, do your first probing operations in air - use a stick (don't put your hands into the area of a moving spindle!) to trigger the probe and see that what happens is what you would expect.

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: ventuseu on July 31, 2010, 03:36:24 PM
Dave,

Well, I'm still learning the settings to make everything work correctly. X and Y axes seems to work as they are supposed to, but after touching and pulling back the message "X/Y + face not found" appears in the error box.

I also haven't been able to get any Z axis motion. I get a "G-BLK with probe tool Z Zero probe, Probe op cancelled" when I activate the Z probe function.

Usually I wouldn't post without spending a little more time working to figure out what I'm doing wrong (the usual problem!), but since you asked...

Mach 3.043.010
MSM Beta 2
PP
Homebuilt Probe
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on July 31, 2010, 04:17:27 PM
Hi,
1) The "X/Y face not found" is what you get if you probe and the max probe distance is reached w/o the probe triggering.
Are you sure the probe is triggering?
Does it end up at the start point after the message? If no face is found, the probe is put back to the start position. If a face is found, the probe backs off by the clearance amount. This should let you identify which case has really happened.

2) this I can help explain (I hope).
Do you indeed have both a TP and a probe connected and interfaced to the probe input?

You have the Gage block configured to be a touch plate (on the settings common page) - AND you attempted to do a Z Zero probe with the probe tool. MSM won't allow that.

For those curious, the reason this combination is not allowed has to do with how tip comp is done for probing operations.
MSM forces this to be and XOR situation, i.e., it wants to see a probe event from either the probe XOR the GBlk=TP.  This is because the Gblk case has to use a probe radius = 0, but the probe tool is mounted and we are using the probe to hit the GBlk TP.... we need to account for the Probe tip radius when using the probe tool....  MSM can't use both a zero and non-zero radius amount at the same time.

It is OK to have a GBlk be a TP - and you can use a probe also - but you can't use the probe to "touch the GBLK TP" (which won't happen electrically anyhow since all the probe tips I've seen are electrically isolated form the spindle).

You can use the GBLK TP with any tool other than the tool number you have told MSM is the probe tool.
For probing to set Z Zero:
    Gage blk (which is not TP) + non-probe tool = OK
    Gage blk (which is TP) + non-probe tool = OK
    Probe tool mounted + regular Gage BLK (not a TP) = OK
    
    Probe tool mounted AND Gage blk (which is TP) AND Z Zero probe = NOT OK

Dave


 

Dave,

Well, I'm still learning the settings to make everything work correctly. X and Y axes seems to work as they are supposed to, but after touching and pulling back the message "X/Y + face not found" appears in the error box.

I also haven't been able to get any Z axis motion. I get a "G-BLK with probe tool Z Zero probe, Probe op cancelled" when I activate the Z probe function.

Usually I wouldn't post without spending a little more time working to figure out what I'm doing wrong (the usual problem!), but since you asked...

Mach 3.043.010
MSM Beta 2
PP
Homebuilt Probe
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: BobWarfield on July 31, 2010, 05:25:30 PM
And, just wanted to say the probing worked great for me when I tried it.  I haven't had occasion to use it lately,so this was a release or two back of the screen set.

The one thing that did happen, that I wonder if might be at work here, was the way the probe wanted to go to home position.  The first time I tried it, I had no home switches and my machines home position was defined in a very screwy place.  Fortunately, my hand was quicker at reaching E-Stop than the probe was at reaching the vise, so no harm done, LOL!

I assume the latest routines will still want some sort of sensible home behavior, though I don't know the rules on that.  I do know that once I got my home switches going and started to "Ref All" axes when I started the machine, everything was very happy with the probing.  I'll try to run it again next time I'm in my shop.

Best Regards,

Bob Warfield

[DaveCVI: Bob is using a SmoothStepper]
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: handsmfg on August 01, 2010, 02:05:01 PM
Is there some reason that when doing just a straight down Z probe with a touch plate that it probes 2 times before Z zeros out?
Thanks Eric.
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 01, 2010, 06:00:07 PM
If you are asking why you see this sequence:
1) moves down (using Probe Fast FR), until it touches
2) moves up by Z clearance amount
3) moves back down to touch again (using Probe Slow FR)
4) Moves up by Z clearance amount

This is normal when you have the Probe Slow FR set to non-zero.

See user manual section 7.1.5.5

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: ventuseu on August 04, 2010, 12:18:32 PM
Dave:

Thanks for the clarification on the gage block. I still can't figure out the"X/Y Face not found".

The probe travels correctly to and touches the face, the "Probe active" LED turns on, then the probe returns to the original position and displays the "Face not found" message. (i.e., it behaves exactly the same as when I exceed the "Max Probe Distance", except it clearly senses the probe being triggered and returns to zero when it touches the face...)

Thanks
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 04, 2010, 12:36:01 PM
Are you using a PP or a SS?
Dave

Dave:

Thanks for the clarification on the gage block. I still can't figure out the"X/Y Face not found".

The probe travels correctly to and touches the face, the "Probe active" LED turns on, then the probe returns to the original position and displays the "Face not found" message. (i.e., it behaves exactly the same as when I exceed the "Max Probe Distance", except it clearly senses the probe being triggered and returns to zero when it touches the face...)

Thanks
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 04, 2010, 12:48:47 PM
FYI -
see
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,15564.msg104401.html#msg104401

for notice of a probing bug (all versions of MSMs)

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: ventuseu on August 05, 2010, 11:52:44 AM
Dave,

I'm haven't yet moved up to SS..

Mach 3.043.010
MSM Beta 2
PP
Homebuilt Probe


Thanks
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 05, 2010, 12:14:13 PM
Hi,
plese send me a PM or email with your email address - I'll send you some info about how to get some debug info for me to look at.
Dave

Dave,

I'm haven't yet moved up to SS..

Mach 3.043.010
MSM Beta 2
PP
Homebuilt Probe


Thanks
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 07, 2010, 01:24:11 AM
Hi readers -
Ventuseu's issue is still under investigation.

Currently, I suspect a problem resulting from the use of a "pin multiplexing" break out board. These type of boards are not pure hardware; they depend on vendor supplied Mach plug-in. They allow one to put multiple signals on a single mach input pin and time division multiplex the pin. I'm hypothesizing that this causes an incorrect state of the probe input to be read when mach looks at the input signal - which results in the probe operation failing.

So, I'm wondering:
Is anyone else using a multiplexing BoB with MSM to do probing?
If so what brand and model BoB?

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: rogerfries on August 11, 2010, 12:59:42 AM
I don't have a touch plate setup yet, but my probe has been working great!  I cut a part yesterday and found the I needed to cut it again .002 more (due to endmill not being the size I thought it was).  Loaded it back in the vice touched off the corner again and ran the modified program.  Worked great!

My only comment,  I wish you had the ability to center on a single axis.  I remember at the Ann Arbor workshop you said you had the routines, just did not install them due to screen confusion.  There's got to be some way to squeeze it in.

Also did a probe along edge to check my vice for square.  It worked, but how do I rotate the axis to correct this tiny error?
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 11, 2010, 03:58:46 PM
We choose not to support rotating the WC system based on vise misalignment in MSM.
The reason is that mach does not rotate jogging when the the WC system is rotated.

Mach jogging is always aligned with the machine axes.
I personally consider that a bug in mach - but it is what it is.

Thus jogging in combination with a rotated WC results in odd side effects.
If you think you are jogging along X in the WC, you are also probably moving in Y and/or Z in WC...

That would be too confusing, so the edge measure facility can be easily used to we measure a vise alignment and MSM simply reports the measurement.

Tap the vise to get it aligned and skip the whole set of issues associated with rotating the WC to match vise.

Re: other probing abilities: I have to say that these will not be coming for MSM anytime soon. I kind of have my hands full with the support of the features MSM already has. But I have added the request to my "things people would like list".


Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: rogerfries on August 11, 2010, 04:33:51 PM
Too bad, I'd like to see that feature on "things people would like list" also.  My issue is that my vice has a boss that sets into a slot in the table, this allows me to just put the vice on the table and it's lined up, but it's not perfect it's slightly off.  It's close enough that for most things I do that I could just use it as is, but it would be nice if I could rotate that axis ever so slightly to correct it.  The jogging issue is probably only an issue if it's rotated significantly, even still your jogging so you can correct as you go, your not cutting while jogging.  Just my .02

I got a feel for how big of a project this was in your session at the CNC workshop.  I understand how busy you are and I thank you for all of your hard work!  

Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 11, 2010, 04:48:39 PM
FYI - I have the same issue..
I bought the nice little key kit for the bottom on my Kurt D688, thinking how nice it would be to just set the vise down and have it aligned. To my surprise the keys cause the vise to be off by 0.003 over about 5" - in hind sight, I don't know what I was expecting given that my table slots are rough finished on the inside vertical surfaces.
The keys do make a nice repeatable mount angle... just not the angle I wanted - so I made some keys of the right dimensions to place the vise in alignment with X when it is put on the table.

I also tend to like soft jaws for this reason - cut the jaws and I know the lip I just cut is now nicely aligned with X.

Dave

 
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: Fastest1 on August 13, 2010, 11:58:12 AM
Dave
I see you mention that you can connect all of the touch plates and probes together (in series I am guessing) to use only 1 input. You do mention this in the instructions and even show a wiring diagram of which I am having a hard time grasping. My (Zarzul's actually) probe is active low"x" and the touchplate is opposite, correct? At 1 time, when I first installed it. I had my probe connected incorrectly or the way you are reffering to and it seemed like all was well but the led's rersponse. Am I missing something? Between the ears? Help fill that void with knowledge!
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 13, 2010, 01:28:22 PM
Hi,
I'll try to give a bit of explanation, but it will probably be incomplete....

This topic is one where, if you understand TTL electronics, the schematic in the manual will be pretty obvious (in which case you don't need to be given a schematic to follow). If you don't speak TTL logic, the schematic is not of much help....  :(

I kind of knew when I included the schematic that I was in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation...    :-\

Here are the core concepts:
Most BoBs have a resister on the board to pull an unused input high. This prevents floating inputs from being triggered by noise etc.
If you connect a normally open switch from the BoB input to gnd, you have created an "active low input" sensor.
Push the switch, the input line is shorted to ground, mach sees the input go active (active low). Release the switch, the resister pulls the input back high and mach see the input go inactive (it's high and the input is "active low").

If you connect 2 or three switches **in parallel*** to the input, any one of the switches will create the active low input signal to mach.

In electronics land this is called "wried-or'ing" inputs. The name comes from boolean logic: the input state = Switch 1 OR switch 2 OR .... switch N closed. 

A little thinking about this will hopefully result in understanding why this only works for active low input devices in parallel. Think about what happens if the switches were normally closed instead of normally open...

This also does not work for combination of active high and active low devices. To make a combination work as desired, what's needed to get touch plates and probes all on the same input pin. The different devices have to converted to all present active low TTL signals to the input pin. The schematic in the manual shows a way to take one acitive high device (a typical probe) and two active low devices (the touch plates) and connect all three to the probe input pin (the schematic is for a Bob that uses TTL input voltage levels).

Hopefully, this helps. If not, the choices are to
1) start learning more about TTL electronics (before doing somethign that "let's the magic smoke out"  of your BoB or other electronics, or
2) Find someone that knows enough electronics to build you an interface card (pehaps similar to the schematic in the manual), or
3) call your favorite BoB vendor and tell them there is a market opportunity if they include this feature in a BoB...  ;)

Dave




Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: Fastest1 on August 13, 2010, 01:45:35 PM
I have a hobby cnc pro board and have been using pin 15 for my input. I am not sure about the pull up resisitor though I do know about the "Magic Smoke", I tried it once, maybe twice. Didnt see any real magic in it. I will be back rewired!
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: Fastest1 on August 13, 2010, 02:02:53 PM
The board provides no interface circuitry except pullup resistors on pins 10, 11, 12, 13 and 15. (Pins
1, 14, 16 and 17 are available on the board but do not have pullup resistors).
The board provides no conditioning for any of these pins - just a pass-thru
connection.

I see the need for the parallel connections so any 1 of the (now) 3 N.O. switches can trigger it. My board appears to have the pullup resistor built into pin 15 (the 1 use presently for my probe). Til this point I have been running a touch plate (moveable) and a probe seperately but changing the active low status with each application. I am beginning to see the light. I just need to look at your circuit a few more times and figure out which side of the board to get this 5v from? Or if that is needed.

Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been extinguished.
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 13, 2010, 02:48:56 PM
Are you wondering about where to get the +5v shown in the manual sample schematic?

Since the entire circuit sits between the input devices and the BoB inputs, the +5v and the Gnd for the schematic are those of the "machine side" of the BoB (not the PP side of the BoB).

The 74LS06 IC is an open collector device. It will not try to apply an input voltage to the input pin of the BoB - the Open collector device looks like a normally open switch to the input pin.

The sample circuit essentially puts 3 inputs in parallel. The probe input (the design assumes the probe is active high TTL levels) and two active low touch plates (N.O. probe plates) are combined into a single "wire-or'ed" result which is feed to the BoB input pin.

Please realize the schematic is a sample, intended to convey the logic needed. While it's actually the circuit I used on my machine, it is not a 100% complete circuit diagram. For example the schematic does not show things like a +5 filter network on the incoming voltage supply lines, or decoupling caps at the IC Vcc supply pin etc...

That level of detail would lead us back to "have a competent electronics guy whip one up for you".

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: Fastest1 on August 13, 2010, 03:42:12 PM
The 74LS06 IC is an open collector device. It will not try to apply an input voltage to the input pin of the BoB - the Open collector device looks like a normally open switch to the input pin.
Dave I totally missed that one (74LSO6 IC). I was only seeing the resistors. I gathered the power was going to have to come from the machine side to keep the isolation however I do appreciate the clarification. I will have to look into where to get a prebuilt circuit like that. I could still use my probe and run thru your routines til then I would think. It would be cool to have all 3 implemented. Is there a way for a tools diameter to be measured and updated similar to the length? Seems like a round hole of a known size could do it. I am still working on getting the probe to work correctly in your screens. Works fine as a G31 but seems to do something wrong in your probing routines. More settings, I am sure.
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 13, 2010, 03:51:33 PM
are you using a PP or a SS?
Some bugs with probing and mach and a SS have been identified that make things screwy when using a SS - see the beta 5 relerase notes.

FYI - I've taken the liberty of pointing several of the Mach 3 hardware vendors to this thread as an example of the need for a "probe input expansion" product.

As more people want to add multiple digitizing devices, I expect more people to want to just buy an accessory to solve the need.

Dave

Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: Fastest1 on August 13, 2010, 03:55:54 PM
I am using a PP, mach .016, Beta 5 of MSM and Xp pro. A device to connect the touch plates and the existing probe would be great. Can they get 1 here this week? I think the issues with the probing so far are set up issues or operation. It does stop and retract just fine. It just doesnt seem to go far enough even though the distances specified are plenty large to accomodate it.
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: Fastest1 on August 13, 2010, 04:56:09 PM
Ok set up the probe and unchecked the active low. In tool 250, I called it a probe at 3' in length and a diameter of .155.  I insert the probe into the middle of a hole and use the centering probe icon in the wc page. It moves in 1 direction touches and just goes a little past the start point and then says X+ is out of range. If I use it as an X+ edge finder it seems inconsistent. Usually it returns to the same place but it occasionally seems to retract the specified distance. ?
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 13, 2010, 07:54:09 PM
he, he, Really, a 3' probe?
I assume you meant to type 3" - but I chuckled over the image it conjured up.    :o

BTW- check also that TLO value - if you are setting it by touch off, I'd expect that to be a negative value.

There are several things you could be seeing - your post caused me to extend a little probing "how to guide" I had partially written in response to questions from others. I have now posted the guide so that others looking for a series of debugging steps to follow will be able to find it easily.

Please read the new sticky post I put up here
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,15646.0.html (http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,15646.0.html)

Please work thru the steps in the "how to guide" and let me know what you find.
We can then work from there.

Dave


Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: Fastest1 on August 14, 2010, 10:19:46 AM
I called it a probe at 3' in length and a diameter of .155. Havent you heard of A2ZCNC's Monster Mill? :-) I have worked thru the beginning steps with out too much problem. It seems that pressing the "probing ver" is essential after changing any screens. Or at least I dont see the "probing ver xx.x" at the top of the screen after a switch. Not sure if it effects anything but I do get some inconsistencies. I will keep working thru your steps. All of my + & - probing worked fine in single step mode. However when probing an edge (which I am not sure I understand yet) it does some inconsistent actions. Again thank you so much for your help and the manual. I have not read the probing guide the whole way thru but I will get it working if at all possible.
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 14, 2010, 10:51:07 AM
Clicking "probing ver" (on the settings-common page) is not required between probing operations.
If a prior operation resulted in an error, clicking "Probe Op Reset" (on the probing page) resets the error indicators.

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: dwessels on August 18, 2010, 12:43:25 AM
Hi Dave,

I am having some wierd issues with probing.
It doesn't matter which direction that I probe in.

It starts the probe, touches, and then pauses for a second, and then starts stepping the opposite direction forever until I hit estop.

Here is the error log:
Tue - 21:38:43 ---
Tue - 21:38:44 ---Calling PLC to Probe toward X- ...
Tue - 21:38:48 ---Probe Ignore, activated at call for probe.
Tue - 21:38:57 ---EStop Button Pressed.

I am running:
Mach 3: Version R3.043.016
MSM: 0.3.2
PP

Thanks,

Denzil
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: dwessels on August 18, 2010, 12:55:12 AM
Hi Dave,

I am having some wierd issues with probing.
It doesn't matter which direction that I probe in.

It starts the probe, touches, and then pauses for a second, and then starts stepping the opposite direction forever until I hit estop.

Here is the error log:
Tue - 21:38:43 ---
Tue - 21:38:44 ---Calling PLC to Probe toward X- ...
Tue - 21:38:48 ---Probe Ignore, activated at call for probe.
Tue - 21:38:57 ---EStop Button Pressed.

I am running:
Mach 3: Version R3.043.016
MSM: 0.3.2
PP

Thanks,

Denzil


Forgot to add that this only happens when I have a "Probe Slow FR" set to something other than 0.

Thanks
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 18, 2010, 02:27:09 AM
Hi,
Sounds perhaps as if the probe is already triggered when the  2nd G31 is issued to mach.
What value do you have XY Clearance set to?

I'm wondering if the XY clearance is set so small that the probe back off far enough to become un-triggered before doing the 2nd probe.

Dave


Hi Dave,

I am having some wierd issues with probing.
It doesn't matter which direction that I probe in.

It starts the probe, touches, and then pauses for a second, and then starts stepping the opposite direction forever until I hit estop.

Here is the error log:
Tue - 21:38:43 ---
Tue - 21:38:44 ---Calling PLC to Probe toward X- ...
Tue - 21:38:48 ---Probe Ignore, activated at call for probe.
Tue - 21:38:57 ---EStop Button Pressed.

I am running:
Mach 3: Version R3.043.016
MSM: 0.3.2
PP

Thanks,

Denzil


Forgot to add that this only happens when I have a "Probe Slow FR" set to something other than 0.

Thanks
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: dwessels on August 18, 2010, 03:41:29 PM
Ok... too wierd.  I restarted Mach3 and tried it again today, and it is now working...
I had the XY clearance set to .4

I only have 1 wierdness left, If I understand how edge probing is supposed to work:

If I do a corner probe starting with the probe right over one of the corners.
It does the following:
-- Z- and zero
-- goes to z clearance, moves X+ to XY clearance I believe
-- goes beyond Z zero (not sure how far, I am guessing the probe diameter?)
-- Probes X- and zero
-- Moves X+ to clearance
-- Moves Y- only XY clearance and never makes it to the Y edge
-- Probes Y+ and misses.  It also seems to only probe XY clearance distance rather than the max XY distance.

I have the following settings:
XY Distance: 2.000
Z Distance: 2.000
Step off width 0.26
XY Clearance: 0.4
Z Clearance: 0.2
Edge width, tried: 0, 0.2, 0.4, etc

Thanks,

Denzil
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 18, 2010, 04:25:40 PM
Hi,
please see inserts below -

I'll see if I can't beef up the explanations in the manual for the next release.
(Sorry, after writing the movement code it was real obvious to me....  :D  )

Please also see the update I just made to the "how to get started with MSM probing" post for some pics that are crude but I hope will help.

Dave

Ok... too wierd.  I restarted Mach3 and tried it again today, and it is now working...
I had the XY clearance set to .4

I only have 1 wierdness left, If I understand how edge probing is supposed to work:

If I do a corner probe starting with the probe right over one of the corners.
It does the following:
-- Z- and zero
-- goes to z clearance, moves X+ to XY clearance I believe
[Dave]: please see section 7.1.5.2 b) of the manual - the amount it moves over is "step off width"

-- goes beyond Z zero (not sure how far, I am guessing the probe diameter?)
[Dave]: please see section 7.1.5.3 of the manual for a nice picture of this

-- Probes X- and zero
-- Moves X+ to clearance
-- Moves Y- only XY clearance and never makes it to the Y edge
[Dave]: nope, The issue is that you have step off width < clearance. These two params interact... during the corner probe operations.
Make step of width large just to show what is going on - make it 0.75.
the try again from about the same inset from the corner as before -
I think things will then be come clearer.

-- Probes Y+ and misses.  It also seems to only probe XY clearance distance rather than the max XY distance.

I have the following settings:
XY Distance: 2.000
Z Distance: 2.000
Step off width 0.26
XY Clearance: 0.4
Z Clearance: 0.2
Edge width, tried: 0, 0.2, 0.4, etc

Thanks,

Denzil
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: dwessels on August 18, 2010, 05:47:10 PM
Hi,
please see inserts below -

I'll see if I can't beef up the explanations in the manual for the next release.
(Sorry, after writing the movement code it was real obvious to me....  :D  )

Please also see the update I just made to the "how to get started with MSM probing" post for some pics that are crude but I hope will help.

Dave

Thanks Dave!

That was it. 
The insert you added "Step off value and corders.pdf" refers to step off value.  I am guessing that that is the same as step off width in the console and the how the get started with probing post. 

Looking forward to the release, as I can now ditch my custom probing screenset that took me ages to cobble together. :)

Thanks,

Denzil
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 18, 2010, 05:59:51 PM
Yep, same value. I just forgot to change the diagram terminology to match the manual.
Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: dwessels on August 27, 2010, 02:53:13 AM
Hey Dave,

I haven been playing with TLO and probing, and had a basic question.  Could be an idiotic question, but I will ask anyway. (I did read the manual.. )

OK, let's see if I can make any sense. I have a gage block that is also a TP.  I am trying to set Z0 for the top of the part.  I can probe for Z on the probing screen, however it does not take into account the thickness of my gage block (1".)  It will just set the top of the gage block as Z0.  Is there a way to probe to the top of a gage block like that and take into account the thickness of it?

Thanks,

Denzil
Title: Probing to TP and G-BLk height
Post by: DaveCVI on August 27, 2010, 12:00:50 PM
Hi Denzil,
MSM should be doing what you want - alas, when I checked, I found that this case had gotten broken in the probing lib & I'm fixing it.

I'm also goiing to add a table to the manual to give what action should be expected for combinatons of
1) G-BLk is TP On/Off, and
2) Probe tool mounted or not.

Dave

Hey Dave,

I haven been playing with TLO and probing, and had a basic question.  Could be an idiotic question, but I will ask anyway. (I did read the manual.. )

OK, let's see if I can make any sense. I have a gage block that is also a TP.  I am trying to set Z0 for the top of the part.  I can probe for Z on the probing screen, however it does not take into account the thickness of my gage block (1".)  It will just set the top of the gage block as Z0.  Is there a way to probe to the top of a gage block like that and take into account the thickness of it?

Thanks,

Denzil

Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on August 27, 2010, 01:35:58 PM
I've sent MSM beta 9 to Scott for posting.
When it is up, please DL it - it should fix the problem of the G-Blk/TP height not being used probing to a Touch Plate.
Also see section 7.4.1.2 in the update manual for the new text.

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: dwessels on August 27, 2010, 10:46:54 PM
Thanks Dave...

Things seem to be working better now.  :)

Denzil

I've sent MSM beta 9 to Scott for posting.
When it is up, please DL it - it should fix the problem of the G-Blk/TP height not being used probing to a Touch Plate.
Also see section 7.4.1.2 in the update manual for the new text.

Dave

Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: vinythewheel on January 10, 2014, 09:39:55 AM
i experience some problem with your screen.
i use a canadian french computer. So, the default marker for digit is "," instead of ".".
When i edit the tool table, the numeric value in the pop up window use ",". To be able to save my entry, i have to change them all to "."
and i have to do it each time.

I think you have to modify your code to take care of this isue.

Over all, this screen is amasing.
Thanks.


Other thing,
My probe dont have any possible adjustment. Si the probe is alway off center. To take care of this, i mill a round pocket on my mill table. This pocket is at a know location in the machine reference system. So when i put the prob in, i mesure the center of this pocket. The mesured position of the pocket minus the theorical mesurement of the pocket give me the actual offset of the probe. This way, when i probe a part, i just have to remove the value calculated to know the real position of the part.

To take care of this, i propose to:
-add two value in the screen to enter the real position of the pocket.
-Add a new button in the probing page to mesure the center of this pocket for probe refference purpose.
-Then, each time i probe a part in a specific direction, take care of the compensation for the probe offset.


Other thing.
When i probe a pocket or a edge, is not alway to zero it. Often it's because i want to mesure it in reference with another feature. So i propose to add a button to tell mach that i want to zero or not.

Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on January 10, 2014, 01:16:12 PM
Hi,
I'll try to address your comments here. Please see the information below.

By the way, the main MSM support forums are here:
http://www/CalypsoVentures.com/forums

For future questions you will get a faster response by posting questions there.

 
i experience some problem with your screen.
i use a canadian french computer. So, the default marker for digit is "," instead of ".".
When i edit the tool table, the numeric value in the pop up window use ",". To be able to save my entry, i have to change them all to "."
and i have to do it each time.

I think you have to modify your code to take care of this isue.


I would love to be able to make MSM follow the various regional settings for numbers and currency. Unfortunately, this problem is not in MSM, it is in Mach.  Much of MSM is written in the cypress basic language that mach uses for scripts. Unfortunately neither Cypress basic or Mach itself support internationalization settings. I asked about this for mach 3 and was told by Artsoft that mach3 was never going to be updated to support anything other than US English settings. 

The best I could do was to document this in the MSM release notes. The only regional settings MSM supprots are those that Mach 3 supports and that is only US English settings. Please see teh MSM release notes, section 4 (Known Errata in Mach3), item # 53.

Other thing.
When i probe a pocket or a edge, is not alway to zero it. Often it's because i want to mesure it in reference with another feature. So i propose to add a button to tell mach that i want to zero or not.
This one I can help you with. There is a button called "probe only". It is in the lower left corner of the panels that have the green arrow probing operation buttons. Whenever this button is on, MSM will not tell mach to reset zero to the probe point.
I think this is exactly you are asking for. See section 8.6.3.1 of the MSM user manual.


Other thing,
My probe dont have any possible adjustment. Si the probe is alway off center. To take care of this, i mill a round pocket on my mill table. This pocket is at a know location in the machine reference system. So when i put the prob in, i mesure the center of this pocket. The mesured position of the pocket minus the theorical mesurement of the pocket give me the actual offset of the probe. This way, when i probe a part, i just have to remove the value calculated to know the real position of the part.

To take care of this, i propose to:
-add two value in the screen to enter the real position of the pocket.
-Add a new button in the probing page to mesure the center of this pocket for probe refference purpose.
-Then, each time i probe a part in a specific direction, take care of the compensation for the probe offset.

This type of problem is why I recommend that people use probes that can be adjusted. 

However, I am also thinking about what you have described.
It seems to me that the process you have described is maybe not sufficient to resolve the errors from a probe that does not have a centered tip.  It also seems to only address probes along the X and Y axis.

It seems that the results you are getting are dependent on the diameter of the cylinder that you are boring and using for compensation. I'm thinking of two circles, on inside the other, with their circumferences tangent at one point only. This is what we have for the probe you described. The "compensation amount" is not only a function of the direction of the probe movement relative to the (offset from center)  probe tip, it is also dependent on the relative diameters of the cylinder and the probe tip.
At least Part of this error can not be removed (without using having a physically impossible zero diameter probe tip).

This gets complex quickly and is one reason that the probing routines in MSM are oriented toward increasing productivity of job setups. Most job setup operations only require probes along a single axis, and in those cases it is good enough to assume that the surface that touches the probe tip is perpendicular to the direction of the probe movement.
A probe whose tip is not concentric will create additional error.

Since probes that have concentric adjustments start at about $120. It seems that the most economic way to remove this error is to get a better probe tool. (the reality is that the effort to implement what you describe is much more than $120 of man power time).

Dave
 

Over all, this screen is amasing.
Thanks.
I'll take that as a compliment. :-)

Dave


Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: vinythewheel on January 11, 2014, 10:48:46 PM
In the tab "Probe only" it will be greate if you add a button for hole center. It's hapen often that i want to know the distance betwen two hole center. It's very hard to mesure it with conventional mesuring tool. Probing is the way to do it, i think...


Another thing,
my probe tip is a perfect sphere so i dont anderstand your argumentation about " It also seems to only address probes along the X and Y axis." if the position of the sphere is know in the machine coordinate system, there is no possible problem. Knowing the z position is easy and dont move that much if the probe get fiew mill ofset in the XY plane. If you probe in the referenced circular pocket (with a know position), you find the position of the probe tip (sphere) in the machine cordinate system. Then any probing operation can be corected easily with the know ofset. eaven if the probing operation is in diagonal.

Please excuse my poor englich.

A probe can be aligned but one secon is needed to bend the stylus without knowing. this cause problem for finding a edge on a part and cause mill operation error. I still think it will be e very good idea to add up those functionality to the interface. For me and for a bunch of user.

I have good programing skill, maybe i can help on that.

Thank for your fast reply



Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on January 12, 2014, 12:25:46 AM
Hi,
Here is a little document with some diagrams for you to think about. These illustrate some sources of "Cosine error".
When a probe tip is centered on the Z axis, the error is as least a constant with respect to the XY direction of a probe motion.
When a probe tip is off the Z axis center, the error becomes more complex - and that is just in the XY plane.
Now consider a probe direction that is along an arbitrary vector in X,Y,Z....  I think you'll quickly decide that it's much more cost effective to invest in a probe tool that has centering adjustments.

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: derek on January 12, 2014, 08:14:07 AM
The cheap probes can be a bit of a challenge to get set properly. I was wondering if putting a tiny 4 jaw lathe chuck between the probe and the tool holder would improve this. You could then just center the probe in the holder.
The problem with adjusting my probe is you're moving the contact balls up and down and this causes contact issues.

Derek

Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: vinythewheel on January 12, 2014, 11:00:01 AM
When i look to your 4 first page of you document (Probe trigger point cosin error pictures.pdf) it's clear that if you probe a inclined surface you can't know the position of the surface. You have to probe two points and calculate the surface slope, find the perpendicular verctor direction then you can calculate the real position of the surface in reference to the probe tip center. This calculation look like the one used when you want to make 5axis tengential machining and need a bunch of man time to implement.

In the case of a the folowing mesurement :
-rectangular pocket aligned in the XY plane
-Edge aligned in the XY plane
 The first two page of your document dont aply

In the case of a circular pocket, the fist 4 page dont aply also cause you recenter the probe in the center to mesure the other axe. thea way, the probe movement is alway perpendicular to the touched surface.

Eaven if you want to digitalise a point cloud of a complex 3D surface, i think the algorithme present on the mach3 webpage take care of cosine error (not shure, never try them). If your probe is off-center, you only have to take the point cloud and translate it the amout of probe ofset in the X and Y direction. and the result will be correct.



The last page of your document represent the problem that can be solved by the routine i propose. (post #39 to #41). With this kind of routine, you can increase the acuracy of the probe positioning operation for a edge probing and pocket center finding.

When i want to zero of my part on the center of a hole i do this operation.
-Install the probe
-mesure my reference hole wich are at a know position (360, 270)
-take the mesured result (360.05, 269,93)
-calculate the position of the ball (360.05-360=0.05  and 269.93-270=-0.07)
-mesure the hole on my part where i want to zero mach3
-after mesurement, the probe go to the center of the hole a zero the XY axis
-edit the X axis DRO and put the value of 0.05
-Edit the Y axis DRO and put the value of -0.07
-hit a G0 X0 Y0
-place a edge finder in the spindle and verify the position of the spindle in reference to the hole.
-Good place all the time

This routine can be automated easily within the MSM app. I can implement it if you can add couple of DRO in your setting page tha i can use.

Thank a lot for your interest
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: DaveCVI on January 12, 2014, 12:30:57 PM
Hi,
<ship>
This routine can be automated easily within the MSM app. I can implement it if you can add couple of DRO in your setting page tha i can use.

Thank a lot for your interest
Please feel free to customize MSM to suit your needs. In case you were unaware of it, you can add DROs to MSM screens (there's no need for CVI to do it for you).  I recommend using Machscreen for mach set file editing (that's what was used to create MSM's pages). You're free to add some DROs and script code to support this technique for handling your probe's tip offset errors.  Section 15 of the MSM user manual covers the techniques for customizing MSM.

Dave
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: Fastest1 on April 29, 2014, 09:28:12 AM
I know this was a bit ago. If the probe was not aligned in Z and you tried to compensate for the error by your calculations. Dont you think spindle orientation would be critical?
Title: Re: Probing and touch plates - your MSM experience?
Post by: vinythewheel on May 03, 2014, 09:50:12 AM
of course, but i have the spindle position with a 4000 count encoder.