Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach Screens => CVI MachStdMill (MSM) => Topic started by: Wallerawang on July 20, 2010, 03:54:19 AM
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Hi Dave
I have been enjoying learning to use your new screen set - thank you for all the hard work that you have put into it.
1: May I ask what the included brains are used for and do they have to be enabled for your screen to function as it should do? (Please excuse me if the answer is in your documentation - I haven't found mention of them yet).
2: My brain I use for feedrate and spindle speed overrides (borrowed from Hood) cause the MDI line to deactivate before I get a chance to type in it! (It works through a PoKeys 55 and works fine on the other screens set I have used) Would you have any ideas why this may be happening - I have attached the brain concerned and I look forward to your comments.
Thanks
Steve
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Hi Steve,
1) Yes, the brains installed with MSM are required for proper operation.
(I'll bet you expected that answer ;) )
The MSM brains drive the display of several LEDs in the MSM screens.
One of the MSM brains is an integrated part of the handling of the tool change sequence.
2) Thank you for attaching the brain that you are trying to use with MSM.
Please understand that at this point in the program, I'm a bit of a one man show here and I don't really have the time required to look into a brain you got from a 3rd party to see what it does.
I did take a 10 second look - but what it is trying to do was not immediately obvious to me.
The MSM brains don't have anything to do with the MDI control. IN fact, other than putting MDI control on a screen page, MSM has no control over what the MDI control does.
I suggest that you do some more basic problem area testing as your net step.
Determine if the interaction you are seeing is Mach or MSM related. Does it work with mach 3.43.10 and the 1024 screens?
Dave
Hi Dave
I have been enjoying learning to use your new screen set - thank you for all the hard work that you have put into it.
1: May I ask what the included brains are used for and do they have to be enabled for your screen to function as it should do? (Please excuse me if the answer is in your documentation - I haven't found mention of them yet).
2: My brain I use for feedrate and spindle speed overrides (borrowed from Hood) cause the MDI line to deactivate before I get a chance to type in it! (It works through a PoKeys 55 and works fine on the other screens set I have used) Would you have any ideas why this may be happening - I have attached the brain concerned and I look forward to your comments.
Thanks
Steve
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I believe I have the same issue as Steve, can't type fast enough in the MDI line, but never put it together that it was the brain, or brains, for FRO and SRO. Mine were also originally from Hood's brains.
Steve, which function of the brains do you think is causing this, and how, exactly, did you arrive at the conclusion that it was these brains causing the problem? I'd be interested to figure this out as I love these brains and have NO IDEA why they'd cause the MDI line to go away.
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Hi Dave and Thosj
I tried a few different things today and found it was nothing to do with Dave's screen set but something to do with the beta release of Mach R3.043.10 as when I set up a profile with the 1024 set it did the same thing, that is the MDI line would deactivate before you could type in it. Please note these brains have been working excellently for 4 or 5 months on many different screen sets (Mach Motion, 1024 and Mach 3 Flash sets) with the previous releases of Mach.
Thosj I guessed it must have been the brain because the MDI line was pulsing at the same rate as the spindle/feed rate display reset timer in the brain was pulsing at, and by deactivating the brain gave me back control of the MDI line.
I would like to be able to use my Brain as I have made a console to use with Mach3 and I find being able to change my feed rate with a physical knob very useful.
Regards
Steve
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Steve, great find that it was Mach 043.010. Have you posted on the Yahoo Group to see if Brian has any input?
I have the same setup as you, almost. Physical pots, PoKeys55 with CNC4PC M2/M21/M23, brains for pots, but my brains don't have that timer in that yours do, so it's not the timer although it's nice yours have the timer as it let you figure out it was the brain. So for you, disabling the brain fixes it? I have some time today, so I'll try some stuff and see what I can learn.
I'm going to check into Jeff Birt's pots (http://www.soigeneris.com) that work with plugins instead of brains. I'll email him and see if they work with Mach 043.010, SmoothStepper, and one thing I'd like to know, do they STOP axis motion STOPPED, not just slow it way down.
If Dave would rather us take this off the forum now that you've figured out it's NOT MSM, we can go to the Yahoo group, or email.
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Hi thosj
I have a separate brain for feedhold (attached). Please keep me updated if you have any success.
Regards
Steve
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Which one caused the problem, although if they're like mine, they need to work in duo, right?
I'll look at your feedhold brain, see if they're both like mine. Edit, the feedhold is the same as mine.
Tom
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Hi Tom
Yes they do work together, I like my brains in small chunks because they are hard to edit if you make a mistake early on in one - you might as well just start a new one as fix up one that doesn't work how you want! - they run so fast you can have many going at once with no effect on Mach's performance. I found it was my overrides brain was causing it because the MDI reset was the same rate as my overrides display reset. You say you don't need that feature for it to work OK - I'll have to try it without the reset. As I said before I was guided by Hood's excellent work with his Pendant article and he had the reset in his brain for that items feedrate override.
Keep in touch
Steve
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I don't think I said, sure didn't MEAN to say, that the display reset, if that's what the Timer Module in the brain does, isn't needed. Just said/meant that my brain doesn't have that, but still the MDI input line doesn't work, so I don't think that's what's causing it.
I'm not a very good brain creator. I mostly get something from someone and try to use it, or modify it slightly. And I'm sympathetic to editing them, what a pain. Really no editing, just delete back and do over!!
I ordered two of Jeff Birt's MPGs and emailed him, awaiting a reply.
I'll get down there and see what I can learn some time today!!
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Steve,
Here are my two Feedhold brains if you want to look, try.
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Well, this is indeed strange, but I can't repeat the MDI input thing. I have my brains active, they work, and the MDI works. I did some tool changes, moved X and Y around with MDI, everything worked fine.
The only thing I can think I did was clean out my brain directory of unused brains so I could see what I was doing. I didn't deactivate my SRO/FRO brains or do anything else. Just started the machine, ref'd all, tried MDI.
I'm sure I had the problem last week and never put it together with the brains, so I was anxious to see what I could learn. Alas, nothing to learn to help you.
Now, I guess, try the brains I attached above, without the timer section, and see if they work for you.
Tom
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A useful test would be to test if things are different on mach 3.43.6.
That would help Brian know where to look.
I believe that mach 3.43.6 is available from the DL page via the archived releases link near the top of the page.
Note: MSM will not run on 3.43.6 - if you try, it will check the mach version and tell you to upgrade mach before MSM will run.
Therefore to get bck to MSM, you'll need to reinstall mach 3.43.10+
Dave
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UH, Guys....?
OK, I got curious and at least one of those brains frankly strikes me as a bad idea...
Perhaps I miss read the brain logic - but it seems to me to be saying that
if feed Ovrd < 100% then feedhold the machine (and turn on a user led 2222)
followed by a rung that says
if user led (2222) is on
(which I think is intended to indicate that this brain's prior rung created the feed hold)
AND (now)
200% < feed ovrd < 600%
AND
the mach feed hold led is on (I.e. the program is paused)
THEN
**** automatically do a cycle start action *****
If I understand this correctly, I could drag the FRO slider to < 100% and a feed hold happens, when I then drag the slider to above 200% the machine starts running the loaded code... without the operator ever touching a cycle start button.
My first reaction was "really"?!? Doesn't anyone else think that generating cycle start events by any entity other than the human operator is more than a bit dangerous?
Or is there more to this context (i.e. other stuff this brain is working with) that would mitigate the danger?
Maybe there are other semantics to LED 2222?
Did I miss something here?
...AND a cycle start event will terminate an open MDI input line.
MDI stands for manual data input - where the D in MDI is "data", and data here really means a block of gcode.
You can't be trying to put a gcode block into the input queue to be executed at the same time that the gcode interpreter is running a loaded program.... which pretty much explains to me why the activation of this brain will close an Open MDI input window...
Dave
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No, no, no. I'm not sure where you're getting 100%, 200%, 600%. It's 1%, 2%, 6%.
If feed override is LESS THAN 1%, feedhold, set LED.
If feed override is GREATER than 2% AND less than 6% AND the LED is on, do a cycle start.
In practice, you turn down the feed pot (analog pot on PoKeys for me), feed slows, but in Mach without this brain, NEVER stops but creeps slowly. With this brain, when it gets to less than 1%, it feedholds, sets LED. Turn the pot UP, it gets above 2% it cycle starts. The 2% to 6% is there because if it's 2% to 3% (like the OP's feedhold brain) and you turn the pot too quickly, sometimes it misses it for some reason.
And this does work in conjunction with the other brain of MY 2, HOOD_FRO (credit where credit is due, Hood, your name in lights!). That one reads the pot, on MOD: 126 IN, PoKeys pin 45 (I think, it's 43-47), and sets feed override 0-150% on the pot.
This, for me, is essential, having analog pots to adjust Feedrate and Speed, especially feed. I can't live without it!!! Old CNC guy from the days before membrane control panels. I can't grab the mouse and drag no steenkin' screen slider to control feed rate!!
There is one issue with this, for some reason (Mach bug?). If you're in Single Block, doing this gets you OUT of Single Block but the Single Block LED on is still lit on the screen!!! Click Single Block off, back on, it's good, but scary the first time you experience it.
The OP's feedhold brain does something different from mine and therein may lie the MDI line problem. I don't have the problem although I thought I did! Might have something to do with the timer in his. I don't understand enough to know about that.
Hood wrote these in one form or another, I modded it slightly for MY PoKeys pin and separated SRO out to a separate brain, they were combined in this brain originally.
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Hi Dave
I had better explain the brains and their use and my setup as I would hate to think that others were thinking I am doing anything reckless - although we from Australia may be known for it. The 2 brains work together and quite well in the previous versions of Mach. I have a small vertical mill - converted to cnc as a lot of others would have on this site. It is attached to a computer with screen a safe distance from the coolant I can get to travel a good distance without trying too hard. I wished to have some control of my machine when standing close to it so I made a console with various buttons for reset, cycle start, feed hold etc. and a MPG, E Stop and some pots for feedrate and spindle override. Photo Attached. When turning the pot for feedrate override the Po Keys 55 gives me a output placed in a user DRO which my (Hoods) brain reads and adjusts the feedrate within Mach. The Feedrate Override Brain also automatically resets the feedrate to 100% if you get the pot close to 100% (98% to 102%) so you are not chasing 100% constantly with your pot and this stops the Feedrate Override LED flashing at you for no good reason. When turning the feedrate right down to 1% the feedhold brain automatically feedholds Mach. If you turn your pot for feedrate override up again to 2% and above then the cycle will start - not automatically but by turning up the feedrate pot manually - this has worked well for me in the past. This was the point of the whole post - none of this should have anything to do with the MDI entry line but with these brains enabled I can not type anything into the MDI line - before this beta version of Mach which we must use to try out your screen set it all worked fine. I had first thought it may have been something in your screenset but as I did further testing I found it to be the Mach upgrade which I did at the same time. I have found a work around in such that if using the MDI I disable the Brain and only use it for running a program. My mill is not industrial strength and often find recommended feedrates too fast for it and with my setup I find it easy to adjust the feedrate on the fly. I like your screen set and it's new features - like the MDI on multiple pages and the probing inclusions. I thought that I would put these comments up to see if anyone else was having the problem and for some feedback. I'm sure we will find out why this is happening to me and it probally will just go away at the next Mach Upgrade!
Kind Regards
Steve
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OK, I'll buy that the numbers are 1%, 2% and 6%.
I guess I was tired and when I read the brain immediate compare operation to the value of 1.0, I converted 1.0 to 100% (thinking that 1% would be in the 0.01) - but I forgot the units on the DRO are %.
So we have a brain that, as long as the FRO is between 2% and 6%, it will cause a cycle start event. If the FRO is set in that range, the cycle start events will be generated at whatever the run period of a brain is (probably the mach 1/10 sec background cycle - but I'm not sure, only guessing re the actual brain run loop run period).
Does the "I can't type into the MDI line before it closes" happen only when the FRO is between 2% and 6%?
I'd guess that if the FRO is reset to 100%, the "I can't do MDI" symptom does not occur?
Since a cycle start will close the MDI Line, this means that the MDI line is getting cleared every 1/10 of a second.
That would seem to explain why one can't get type text into the MDI line - right?
Dave
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So we have a brain that, as long as the FRO is between 2% and 6%, it will cause a cycle start event. If the FRO is set in that range, the cycle start events will be generated at whatever the run period of a brain is (probably the mach 1/10 sec background cycle - but I'm not sure, only guessing re the actual brain run loop run period).
I think the brain issues a cycle start WHEN FRO gets back to 2-6%, not AS LONG AS it's between 2 and 6, IF I understand the logic. It should only issue a cycle start ONCE, but I could be wrong, probably AM wrong!!
Steve, the OP in this thread, does not have 2% to 6% in his brain, he has 2% to 3%. I found that to miss Mach's 1/10 sec too often, so changes to 2-6.
And, at any cost, I DON"T HAVE THE MDI PROBLEM on Mach 043.010, either with 1024 screens or MSM, so Steve will have to speak to that. I don't understand the logic in his FRO brain, his feedhold brain is essentially the same as mine other than his is 2-3%, Hood's original, and mine is 2-6% after discussing it with Hood.
I'll get out of here as I'm NOT having the issue!!!
Edit: I just went on the machine, turned down the pot 'til it feed holded (held?), turned it up to 4%, and I could type in the MDI box OK, so that's not the problem, I don't think.
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Hello Guys Dave contacted me and told me to look into this.. That darn Hood found a way to make it not work LOL.. I would like to know if any of you know what function in the brain is causing the error? I need to look into this and I am also looking into the errors that Ozzie has had with Probing. My goal was to get this out today but I don't see that happening if there is a brain problem :(
Thanks
Brian
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Well after testing for 30 min I can't make it fail with the brain that I got from this post.. I am ony using the screen and the slider on the screen but it should give me the same results that you are all seeing.. please tell me if I am doing something wrong
Thanks
Brian
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Hi Brian
To reproduce what I was seeing please just load my consoleoverrides brain from earlier in the post and enable it. You don't need any hardware connected as I get the same effect on my house computer. With the brain running just click into the MDI line and try to type something. Mine deactivates the MDI before I can type more the a few letters.
I have just rewritten the brain without the timer module and it now works fine.
I promise I was only doing what Hood said to do and I was not meaning to cause any trouble :)
Kind Regards
Steve
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Hello Steve,
Just tested it and I am not getting any error.. Your brain file is the one that I downloaded and tested with.. I will post a new rev later... I hope it fixes you.
Thanks
Brian
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O.K. Thanks Brian - I may have just had a bad download last time, so I will look forward to the next one and hope my problem goes away.
Thank you for all your efforts.
Regards
Steve