Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Leo Voisine on July 19, 2010, 02:02:43 PM
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I have a Larken 2424 Camtool and it uses the Larken control box that came with the machine.
It has a 220v spindle with an AC Tech series mc spindle drive and a Perske 2hp spindle.
I use Vectric software to do gcode programming.
The axis control boards are in the Larken control box.
The control box is connected to a desktop computer via a parallel cable.
There is a small Larken CNC spooler program to operate the machine.
I don't care for the control software supplied by Larken to control the machine.
Can I some how convert this machine to run with Mach 3 software?
I am pretty good at mechanical stuff, but I am not great at software, electronics or computers.
With some help I could likely get through it.
Do I need dedicated circuit boards to control axis motion?
Is this reasonably "doable"?
Leo
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Do you have a link to any info on the setup?
Hood
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Hood,
This is the machine
http://www.larkencnc.com/cam24/index.shtml
I am not sure what else you would be asking about?
This is the Larken main page
http://www.larkencnc.com/
Leo
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Ah OK thats the guy that makes the viper and cobra drives.
Looks like yours will probably be stepper driven but even if not it should be no problem to convert to Mach and likely you will only need to configure Mach and wont need any hardware.
What you will need to find out is which pin is connected to Step and Dir for each axis and any limits, E-Stop etc. Spindle I am not sure about as I have not found any info on the speed controller yet but again likely will be possible to convert without any hardware.
Hood
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Do you have any electrical diagrams? What would be important is the pinouts and description for the parallel cable. Also - can you look at any of the existing configuration information - especially port and pin info and steps per inch or millimeter. As long as it uses stepper motors and step/direction type control all it should require is a computer that will run Mach3 and a parallel port.
If you can document the signals at the parallel port mach 3 should be no problem.
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I am not electronics savy - but also not afraid of anything.
If we dialog back and forth enough - we can probably work through all of it. And I will learn a lot of stuff.
I can take pics and you can walk me through - I would imagine it will take a while.
The machine has stepper motors - I can give you the numbers and stuff like that. I can get real good real close up pics and you can all help me through. I am good at getting close up pics.
Schematics? I truly believe we will be out of luck there. Support from Larken is close to none.
The spindle is the Perske 2 hp with an AC Tech MC Series drive. It is a variable frequency drive. I have just downloaded the manual for it. In the worst case - I can set the drive unit up as being independant, like, I can turn the spindle on and off via the AC Tech panel. However, I would rather have it run via Mach 3.
In the Larken control box I can identify the axis control boards - and where the wires go to. Each of the stepper motors has a 4 wire plug. Each wire is a specific color.
OK - I am working on my truck also - so this is a bit of a side project.
Telling by the number of posts you have made - you are around here a lot.
Will we be able to go into this
What do I need to do first?
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First thing to do is identify which pin on the parallel cable goes to each of the motor inputs on the drives, should be easy enough with an Ohm meter.
Hood
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I started to look at it earlier.
The parallel wire plugs into a card in the control box at the front end. The wires coming out of the back of the board are in sets of three. Each one of those groups of three wires goes to a plug on the individual axis drive boards. I am not very well versed in electronic testing but I think I can back trace where those connections go
I will do that tomorrow morning.
I guess I should also download the Mach 3 software,
Leo
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Yes download and install Mach. It sounds like all you will need to do is configure Mach to the correct pins and it will work.
Hood
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Hood,
I am NOT an electronics person - I really don't know much about how to use an ohm meter but here is some information I was able to find
I don't know if I am calling the pins the correct thing put I start at the lower left corner as #1 and work my way around clockwise.
(http://i29.tinypic.com/28jd36d.jpg)
This is what the parallel board inside the Larken controller looks like
(http://i26.tinypic.com/2akg0ll.jpg)
These are the 3 axis control boards as installed in the Larken controller - is also shows the end of the parallel port board
(http://i30.tinypic.com/16m6jvm.jpg)
The parallel port board is at the front end of the board which is mounted to the front of the Larken control box.
On the back end of the board is three sets of 3 wires. In each set is One Green, One Purple, and One Gray. There is one set of wires for each axis control board. I have ID'd each of those.
I also used my ohm meter
(http://i30.tinypic.com/2rcvec2.jpg)
I had the meter set on 200k ohms
Like I said - I don't really know how to use this stuff.
I used a paper clip inserted into the plug that plugs into each axis drive drive board on each of the colored wires - and checked every pin on the parallel port pins.
This is what I got
"0" means there is no connection at all
"X" Axis
Pin # Wire color Wire color Wire color Wire color
Green Purple Grey
1 71.8 0.8 72
2 71.8 0.8 72
3 71.8 0.8 72
4 71.8 0.8 72
5 71.8 0.8 72
6 0 0 0
7 0 0 0
8 0 0 0
9 0 0 0
10 74.9 1 75
11 0 0 0
12 0 0 0
13 0 0 0
14 74.9 1 75
15 74.9 0 75
16 74.9 0 75
17 74.9 0 75
18 74.9 0 75
19 0 0 0
20 0 0 0
21 0 0 0
22 0 0 0
23 0 129.2 0
24 0 0 0
25 0 0 0
frame 71.9 0.8 77
Does any of this make any sense to you?
If it does I will do the other two axis's later today.
BTW ---- it there an easy way to insert a pic??
Leo
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Not looked at your pics properly yet, they are a bit big ;D
Having said that what you want is your meter on its lowest resistance setting and you are looking for 0 resistance when testing between pin on port and a wire.
Problem you will have is that it goes through a load of electronics on that breakout board so you are not going to be very successful at it :(
I will see if I can look at the pics closely and I may be able to work out where the traces go, but will probably be later today as I have a fair bit of work to get on with.
Hood
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Hood,
I can resize the pics
I know the board has a load of electronics on it - and that confuses the heck out of me.
That board also controls the spindle drive, and the override stops.
Being that I am not an electronics person - I will not be able to rewire anything.
Later tonight - I will resize some pics - and retest with the ohm meter on a different setting.
Leo
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Hi Leo,
If you lived near my I would love to come over and help.
It could be straightened out in a hour or two in person.
It looks like the purple, gray and green wires are just step, direction and common. Not that I can tell which is which at this distance.
Worst case you get a G540 and connect directly to the steppers and bypass all the existing stuff. If your power supply is under 50v and your motors take less than 3.5 amps.
CAUTION. The exposed terminals on the large cap can hurt you real bad if you touch them while the power is on.
Mike
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Actually thinking about it, have you contacted Larry Kenny to ask if he can give you the pinouts, he may even be able to give you an xml if you are lucky.
Failing getting any info it may just be as quick to start Mach and assign some generic settings and see how things go, for example just set up only the X axis first and put pin 2 for step and 3 for direction and make sure you enable it and enter Port 1 for both Step and Dir. Once thats done you could see if you can get out of reset, if you cant then change the active state of the E-Stop in ports and pins and see if it is OK now, if it is then see if X will jog. If not then try putting Pin 6 as Dir and try again.
Hood
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I have been asking Larken for help - but getting no answers.
I sent emails and I posted at CNC zone.
I don't know why, no help is offered?
I am not going to ask for help for pin out configuration, or anything else, I just get frustrated when I get no help from support.
I also need help getting better repeatability from my "Z" axis. I am not sure if it is stepper related or hardware related. I think the leadscrew might be bad, but I don't know what to order.
I want to convert over to Mach 3 because I feel I can get better support and help.
Anyway - I do like your idea about trying the pinout configurations in the software. Sounds tedious, but I am very patient.
I also like that Mach 3 recommends doing the trial first before purchasing.
I will do it - but I am in the middle of another project also. It will be a few days.
I am excited about the Mach 3 --- I think it will help me to control the 3D stuff and get better results from my "Z" axis repeatability problem. I still think my lead screw might be bad though. Wish Larken would help with this.
It's actually a pretty nice machine - but I need support.
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Not so good, have never dealt with Larken so cant comment on his support but it certainly doesnt sound good from your experience :(
Shouldnt be too much hassle getting it running, even with the trial and error approach :)
Hood
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Hi Leo,
If you lived near my I would love to come over and help.
It could be straightened out in a hour or two in person.
It looks like the purple, gray and green wires are just step, direction and common. Not that I can tell which is which at this distance.
Worst case you get a G540 and connect directly to the steppers and bypass all the existing stuff. If your power supply is under 50v and your motors take less than 3.5 amps.
CAUTION. The exposed terminals on the large cap can hurt you real bad if you touch them while the power is on.
Mike
Mike,
I am in southeastern Mass - about 45 minutes south of Boston -- another 20 minutes south and you get you feet wet in the Atlantic --- I would love the visit.
BTW - thank you for the warning. That IS something I "would" do
Leo
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Not so good, have never dealt with Larken so cant comment on his support but it certainly doesnt sound good from your experience :(
Shouldnt be too much hassle getting it running, even with the trial and error approach :)
Hood
Actually Larry from Larken just emailed me.
He said if it's an older machine it might be best for me to convert to Mach 3
I asked for the pin config and anything else I would need.
Hopefully he gets back to me with some info.
I'll be back after I hear from Larken.
Leo
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Hi Leo,
If you lived near my I would love to come over and help.
It could be straightened out in a hour or two in person.
It looks like the purple, gray and green wires are just step, direction and common. Not that I can tell which is which at this distance.
Worst case you get a G540 and connect directly to the steppers and bypass all the existing stuff. If your power supply is under 50v and your motors take less than 3.5 amps.
CAUTION. The exposed terminals on the large cap can hurt you real bad if you touch them while the power is on.
Mike
Mike,
I am in southeastern Mass - about 45 minutes south of Boston -- another 20 minutes south and you get you feet wet in the Atlantic --- I would love the visit.
BTW - thank you for the warning. That IS something I "woHi Leo,
If you lived near my I would love to come over and help.
It could be straightened out in a hour or two in person.
It looks like the purple, gray and green wires are just step, direction and common. Not that I can tell which is which at this distance.
Worst case you get a G540 and connect directly to the steppers and bypass all the existing stuff. If your power supply is under 50v and your motors take less than 3.5 amps.
CAUTION. The exposed terminals on the large cap can hurt you real bad if you touch them while the power is on.
Mike
Mike,
I am in southeastern Mass - about 45 minutes south of Boston -- another 20 minutes south and you get you feet wet in the Atlantic --- I would love the visit.
BTW - thank you for the warning. That IS something I "would" do
Leo
uld" do
Leo
Hii Leo,
I am in north central CT.
Boston is about 2 hours from here. If Larken helps you out great if not we could arrange a house call.
If nothing else a visit from a fellow enthusiast is always fun.
Send me a PM with your email and we can chat further offline.
Mike
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Mike I am ALWAYS ALWAYS up for meeting new people and making new friends.
ESPECIALLY those who have any interest at all in woodworking - and in CNC.
My son lives in Bridgeport Ct.
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Mike I am ALWAYS ALWAYS up for meeting new people and making new friends.
ESPECIALLY those who have any interest at all in woodworking - and in CNC.
My son lives in Bridgeport Ct.
I would LOVE to go visit Hood --- Scotland?? Beautiful country there!!!
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Not sure how your controller board works and have attached a picture of it from the Larken site.
I would only guess that there "may" be some info in the associated software.
Don't know what exactly the estop is doing on that board as i only guess that it is disengaging the drives and not killing the whole power supply.
So it seems like you have Starcam software board ( i will just call it a break out board / BOB) and for steppers they provided a choice of Starcam or Mach2.
Not sure Mach3 will work with the BOB. If the board is bypassed, and you got an xml file from them, then you would have pinouts, maybe.
The question you should ask Larken are:
If you now want to use MACH do you need to bypass the board? ....or....
Can the board be used with any step and direction software?
Can they supply you with an xml for Mach2?
If you get nowhere.....Then i would try removing the estop wire from switch to the BOB. In mach i would assign say pin 10 and check the emulated in config.
Then i would disconnect the wires to the drives for y & z and start by trial and error for the x axis only to jog a small distance using pins 2-9 for step and direction.
2 x 9 = 18 x 2 ( high and low settings = 36 possibilities
We had to do this with a Chinese drive that had no known literature, the first axis was rather quickly done....then the others somewhat longer.
Hope this helps, I don't know of a shorter route if Larken won't respond to you. Hey they want to sell their own controlling program.......
RICH
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Whoa!!! $1800 --- $2400
Way out of my league.
Larken did say he had a BOB for $169 - but I didn't know what that was.
I think I can go the $170 - but not $1800
Rich - you are talking a bit greek to me.
I understand about unplugging the estop but not about reassigning it to pin 10
I underatand about unplugging the "Y" and "Z" axis drives to experiment
I don't understand what you mean about xml files
I can keep trying with Larken - they do respond - but real slow.
In the meantime - I can still use the Larken software - and work at the Mach 3 setup.
Take me through slow - I can do it - but one step at a time.
I am mechanical - not electronic.
BTW - yes this is a starcam controller Mach3 not Mach2. The steppers are upgraded to more powerful ones, not the standard ones.
Also - this machine has the AC Tech MC Series variable speed drive that I hope to operate through gcode programming.
I installed the Mach3 software tonight, but I did not try anything with it yet.
Leo
Larken I
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I don't understand what you mean about xml files
When you configure Mach3 ,ie; you assign in CONFIG>PORTS & PINS which pins will be used for outputs and inputs to Mach3 along with other things and all that is saved in a named file.......like maybe .......LARKEN.XML. So if you ask them for an xml file or their configuration for using Mach
you will not need to figure what pin is used for what. On their site they only mentioned Mach2 so even a configuration from that old version would be a great help. So save yourself a lot of agrivation and ask them for it.
Like I said that board may dedicated to their software, i don't know...., but if it works with the pulse out of a PC using Mach then
life should easy.
RICH
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Just a thought, since you have the laken software you can also just jog an axis, lets say X, and look to see what pin on the DB 25 cord is changing state via your meter, I will guess it's 2 to 9. So jog the axis with their software to make sure the board is working. That will tell you
what pin is assigned to the wires going to the drives. Check that the cord is straight thru, ie pin 1 is pin1 on the on both sides.
BTW, Software sends a signal from PC to a particular PP pin, the signal then goes to Larkens controller connection (DB25) which eventualy goes to the drive connection on that board. So using the larken software you will find out what you need to know.
RICH
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I went the "extra mile" for you and talked to Larken. ;)
The break out board ( BOB) for StarCam will not work with Mach and you need a different BOB ( i kind of figured that). :(
You will need a BOB, since you wish to have more control than say just moving the axes and homing. The drives are opto isolated
and you could bypass the Starcam board, but you will be limited.
Which BOB you purchase is up to you, Larken has one, PDMX comes to mind, but it's up to you. If you purchase a break out board form a third party i am sure Larken won't have much interest in helping you should there be a problem with a drive or use of the third party BOB.
I am sending a mail message off to Larken requesting info on their BOB and associated MACH configuration.
I will post the info when i get it and you can decide to go from there what you want to do.
I am assuming that you got this machine used? If that's the case you should at least confirm ,using their sofware, that the drives and controller work as they should. That could affect your decision on how you proceed if something is not right.
Till then,
RICH
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I got a reply from Larken ( Larry ) , and they don't currrently have a BOB and would take a few weeks.
So just by pass the Larken board / remove it.
The drives are step and direction and the switches and estop are wired N/0.
That said buy a new BOB from whoever you choose, install it, configure Mach3, and you should be good to go provided
your drives are good.
RICH
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Rich, Mike, Hood,
Thank you, I have also had communications with Larry at Larken.
He told me he had a BOB for the machine.
But before I bought it - I wanted to go through a little more troubleshooting on the machine to be sure I was not having mechanical problems instead.
I think after this discussion with you - THANK you - I am going to purchase the BOB from Larken.
Larry knows I bought the machine used and it is about 10 years old. Even at the age it is - I KNOW it got just about NO usage at all.
The machine is pretty rugged.
I just went through a sample 3D cutting run, and noticed that the control is not moving the Z axis to the programmed position.
Larry told me that the older starcam boards had trouble processing direct gcode.
At this point, I am waiting on Larry to look at a couple of gcode programs I sent him, and to look at a detailed explanation of the Z axis problem I am having.
I am not dead in the water - the machine is functioning - it is just not performing in 3D modeling the way it should. All the axis drives work - the spindle starts and stops fine. It can do just about everything it is meant to do - it just has about .030 Z error over about 5" of XY travel. I believe the problem is in the ability of the older starcam board to process direct gcode.
I am almost certain I will be converting to Mach3 and replacing the board.
I will certainly get the BOB from Larken - he deserves a sale from me, because of all the help he is offering up to me.
I don't mind a little waiting. I don't do this for income - just for hobby and crafting.
Sorry, I am being idle for periods of time - as this is a "side line" in my shop right now.
I am also working on a different project.
AND -- thank you for such TREMENDOUS support
I will be needing more in the coming weeks ----- I am sure.
Leo