Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: jimthefish on April 23, 2010, 02:19:22 PM
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Those who have been following my trial and tribulation converting my Denford Triac to run with Mach 3. Got it all working except the spindle. I'm using a spindle drive card supplied by DIYCNC and have wired it up to the LYNX spindle drive system on the Machine. I have check to make sure the LYNX internal relay comes in, IT DOES. However cant get the spindle to rotate, I don't seem to have a signal out from the OUT and 0v pins. Should I have a low voltage or a pulse to control the speed. there is a 12v connector on the DIYCNC spindle card do I need a connection to this to get a voltage or am I wrong. HELP please.
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Any links to these drives?
Hood
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Hi Hood, I think the Lynx board has blown but not sure. the link for the manual is
http://www.transdrive.co.uk/dc-drives/control-techniques/lynx.asp
Mach3 is linked via a Breakout board and spindle card from http://www.diycnc.co.uk/html/system1.html its the system 1 breakout board, scroll down and it shows the spindle card attached, the manual is on the same page. Been in touch with the inverter supermarket and they say there is a equivalent replacement it the SSD 512C rated at 6amps so might just go for it. Jim
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You should be able to check that your spindle board is functioning properly by MDI'ing a M3S**** and measuring the voltage, if **** is your Max speed you should get 10V out.
Hood
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Cheers Hood, I'm a little confused as to where the 10v comes from, at the moment I have the spindle board pluged into the system 1 board and the 12v supply light is on. I have the connection to close the internal relay on the lynx board, I know that OK. So if I connect an multimeter to the 0V and the OUT wires going to the lynx board I should get a voltage when I put an M3 S1000. So does the 10v come from the system 1 board or do I need to do something with the 12v connection? Sorry to be so thick but don't want to blow anything up as I'm so near to getting it all going.
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Not really sure about your board as I dont think I saw an actual manual on the site for the speed control. I did see one but not sure if its the same as the one you are using.
The wires that go to your VFD would be where you want to measure the voltage, it would normally range between 0 and 10v depending on the commanded speed.
Do you have a direct link to the manual for the board you are using?
Hood
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Ok Hood just checked the output to the 0v and OUT pins, I'm getting nothing, the internal relay is pulling in on the lynx board but no signal when putting in a S600, the only thing is have I set the Mach3 software correct? the system 1 board uses pin 16 or 17 to control the spindle, so set that, obviously using port 1. Do tick the relay button or leave it blank? tried both. I have tried several combinations of pins and settings but cant get a voltage to the 0v and OUT pins. The spindle drive instructions are on that site www.diycnc.co.uk there is only one page on the spindle card, thats how I knew it used pins 16 and 17 for the spindle. Jim
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Hood just noticed the spindle part of the manual can be found on the system 4 manual, its on page 10.
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It seems to be Step signal that it takes and converts to 0-10v but not much more info :(
I presume you will need to enable the spindle in Ports and Pins, Motor page and set pin 16 for step and 17 for Dir. Then I would think you will need to also go into motor tuning and set some values in there for the spindle but what I am not really sure as I have only ever used real Step and Dir spindles (Servo motors)
Also when you are doing the MDI I presume your have a M3 there as well as the S600?
Hood
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Yep I've tried everything, are you saying that the spindle card sends out a pulse not a constant voltage or should I be getting a set voltage, only I'm beginning to think its the LYNX08 unit thats at fault. As I said before I aint got a clue about electronics, do you think the DIYCNC board sends out a voltage or does it send a pulse that get converted in the LYNX08 card. I'm thinking of buying a new SSD513C unit but dont want to spend £110 and still have a problem. Your advice is much appreciated, thanks
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The spindle board will take in Step pulse from the parallel port and convert that to a voltage. The voltage will depend on the speed you set in Mach, ie the faster the speed the higher the pulse rate that the spindle board will get and the higher the voltage it will put out. The output voltage will be a steady voltage.
If you are not getting a voltage out of the spindle board then either it is not working or you have Mach configured wrongly.
Hood
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Cheers mate, I'm now even more convinced its the LYNX08 unit. When I started this project it was because the Denford software told me it was an Toochanger problem, unfortunatly the spindle needs to stop in a set rotation so you never know if the fault was with the ATC or the spindle. I suspect its the spindle drive. Hood thanks for you advice I will keep you posted, going on Holidays (to Scotland) not your side, the west coast, will forget the dam spindle and sort it out when I get back. Can you tell them Scottish midges to leave me alone, I get bitten to buggery every time I come up, if it aint the midges its the gale force winds or the rain. (why do I like Scotland so much must be mad) Jim
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Ha ha well you make the mistake of going to the wrong coast, over this side the midges are a lot less, the wind can be as bad if not worse but here on the Angus coast we are amongst one of the driest parts of the UK :)
Hood
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Benn over that side several times, it still rains. There's a new Caravan Club site near you we are going to later in the summer.
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Maybe you just attract the rain ;D
Heres an average map rainfall for Scotland, I live at the arrowed part :)
Hood
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I have some good news, but before I tell you remember all English men are not a thick as two short planks, indeed some Scotsmen are not the full shilling (Gordon Brown). I forgot to set the spindle port on the ports and pin settings to port 1. Its working now but needs a bit of fine tuning the spindle starts running slowly after M5 is called, and I cant get it to reverse. The only way to stop it running slowly after asking for M5 is to turn the machine off, so I must be getting a signal from somewhere on the machine as even closing down the computer doesn't stop it. Still a minor problem I'm sure I can sort out. (with a little help for Hood) Cheers mate
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Good news indeed :)
Oh BTW heres a wee story to show what we think of that man up here ;)
Tragedy
GORDON BROWN was visiting a Scottish primary school and the class was in the middle of a discussion related to words and their meanings.
The teacher asked Mr. Brown if he would like to lead the discussion on the word 'Tragedy'.
So our illustrious leader asked the class for an example of a 'Tragedy'.
A little boy stood up and offered, "If ma best freen, wha’ lives on a ferm, is playin' in the field and a tractor rins ower him and kills him, that wid be a tragedy."
"Incorrect", said Gordon, in his best trying-not-to-sound-too-Scottish-accent, "That would be an accident."
A little girl raised her hand, "If a school bus kerryin' fifty children drove ow’r a cliff, killing a'body inside, that wid be a tragedy"
'I'm afraid not', explained Gordon, "that's what we would refer to as a great loss’’.
The room went silent. No other children volunteered. Gordon searched the room.
"Isn't there someone here who can give me an example of a tragedy?"
Finally, at the back of the room, a wee lad raised his hand and, in a quiet voice, said:
"If a plane kerryin' you and Mr. Darlin' wiz struck by a 'freendly fire' missile & blawn tae smithereens, that wid be a tragedy."
"Fantastic!" exclaimed Gordon, "and can you tell me why that would be a tragedy?"
"Weel", says the lad, "it has tae be a tragedy, because it certainly widnae be a great loss, and it probably widnae be a f*cking accident either!"
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Brilliant.
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Hi Hood finally got everything set up its been a long time but worth it. Your help was much appreciated. There is just one small problem you might hava a soloution to. When I do an M5 the spindle stops, then about a minute later it starts to rotate forward at about 10 revs per min. Nothng stops it, even closing down MACH3 or turning off the computer. To stop it I have to switch the machine off, it then doesent start rotoating providing I dont put any M codes in. The next time I put an M3S500 all works fine, then as soon as I stop it 60secs later it start rotatng slowley again. I'm starting to understand electronics and assume I'm getting a low voltage signal somewhere, or is it because our house uses natural gas for cooking? Told you I'm getting good at this electronic stuff. Jim
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Seems strange, my first thought was electrical noise but because it only happens after you have commanded a M3 it seems unlikely.
Can you attach your xml just in case there is a problem in your config.
Hood
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Hi Hood would not have a clue on xml sending, however been down the shed (workshop) this morning tidied up the wiring and fixed everything in and spread the wires out and the rotational creep problem has dissapeard. you were right it looked like electrical noise. The only thing it wont do is an M4 (reverse) aint bothered with that as I can't think of a situation where i will need it, I do tapping on my steam trains by hand. Jim
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I have not looked at your drive info so not sure how that works with reverse but will see if I can find the link in the previous posts.
I remember saying you had an ATC but cant remember what type of mill this is, if its a Boxford I have just finished a macro and ladder for a guys toolchanger and its working well so you are welcome to it if you want. It would mean you would need to get a PLC though so maybe you dont want to go that far at the moment.
Hood
Edit, I have just seen in the first post its a Denford so ladder probably wouldnt be any use :(
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Hi Hood just cut my first job, nameplate for my granson took about 20mins. All fine however I notoced the motors run a bit warm, they aint that hot but when I used to use the denford software they stayed cool. I have an enable option on my stepper and my spindle drive will this cut down the temperature of the motors or am I worrying about nothing.
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Steppers do tend to get hot so unless they are so hot that you cant touch them for more than a few seconds I dont think you need worry.
Hood
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Hi Hood I set up the spindle according to the tutorial video troubleshooting, You know I can't get the spindle to reverse. well in the video its shows CW and CCW using the same output. So I set output 1 for both with pin 16 & 17 according to my breakout board instructions. Do you think if I set CCW as output 2 and used pin 16 & 17 again it would work. If it goes in the same direction I tick the dir section. As I said I'm new to electronics so don't like changing things with seeking advice.
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Can your spindle drive actually control the direction, just has a quick look at it and only thing I could see was it said if motor ran the wrong way to reverse the armature wires. That would seem to suggest that you cant change motor direction with that drive.
Hood
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Yep I think it does the old denford programming had an M3 and M4, it also had a tapping subroutine as one of its options. Would it do any harm if I assigned output 2 with the same pins as output 1? that is pins 16 & 17.
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Just checked the manual for the lynx08 drive board, it does have a reverse option and dynamic breaking, what ever that means.
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I saw it said that but afraid I cant see how it does it. I would imagine internally it must switch the armature around but I would think there has to be an input to tell it which way to go and the only input I see is 0 to 10 volt. If it had been like an analogue servo drive then it would be easy as they take -10 to +10v so direction can be changed depending on the input polarity, that doesnt seem to be the case here though :(
Do you know how the original control connected to the drive?
Hood
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Actually just looked again, it says Unidirectional, that to me suggests it can only go one way. I wonder if the Denford wiring had contactors which controlled the polarity of the windings?
Hood
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Hi Hood again you have hit the nail on the head. If you remember I could not get anything out of the LYNX08 board at the start of this thread, so I bypassed a couple of relays that were linked between the breakout board and the LYNX spindle board. I think they were controlled by signals from the ATC as the spindle had to stop in a set position to line up the dogs of the toolchanger and the slots in the tools. It looks as if Denford controlled the spindle with a mixture of the DC drive and AC contactors. I'm going to leave it, as I said I can't think of any reason why I would want an M4. Later on might invest in a new SSD 512C unit from the inverter supermarket which is the replacement for this unit. It has a reversing option but at £110 seems a lot just to tap holes. The LYNX08 aint going to last long, one of the capacitors has blown but does not seem to affect its operation. Cheers for all your help mate
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It is common for caps to go on old equipment but normally they are easy to replace, just a bit of soldering :)
Hood
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OK Roy at DIYCNC has identified as a 1uf capacitor so might have a go later. Hood I'm going to dump all the denford stuff including an origonal manual. Do you know anyone who might want some bits, Already flogged the toolchange mechanical parts, front panel and 6 off SD2/3 drive cards on ebay. But the rest I'm going to dump. If they pay the postage and they can have it for free.
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No afraid not, might be worth putting a post in the bargain basement part of the forum to see if someone wants them.
Hood
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Hi this is just for reference, I noticed I had sent you the latest LYNX manual, I have tried to attach the correct one, Nothing has changed it looks as if you need to attach something to it to get reverse. Hope you got the attachment (for your reference only)
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Ah now thats more like a manual :)
You can see on fig 4 how the contactors are used to reverse the motor direction, you should have them unless you sold them, but if you didnt then I would say hang onto them as you may want to add them back in the future.
Hood
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OK they are sitill there, I took the wires to the motor from one of the contactors as it was connected to the ATC which I removed, the spindle then started working. I kept a record of the wiring and when I have caught up with the job outstanding will have a go. There are so many wires going in some at 240v I was worried if I used them might do damage. When setting up the stepper drive cards I has a strange 240v supply into one of them which blew it up. Denford were renownwed in the early days for making adaptions and not recording them in their manuals. Attached a picture of the contactors for your reference, you can see the number of wires going into them, dont need M4 so going on the saying if it working dont mess.
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Hi,
I’d like to know if someone had same problem (Estop trig on when spindle turn on) with CNC Router. I have VisionCam router and it is run by PC (with MACH3 ). Signal from PC going to rely and after to AC inverter (TB WOOD’S X2C model 2007-5B) . After AC inverter turns on it send signal to MACH3 what “external estop requested” . It is doing that no meter if spindle connected or plug disconnected from spindle . Please let me know how can I fix this issue .
Thank You !!!!!!
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Sounds like your inverter is throwing out a lot of interference, as a test increase the Debounce Interval to 2000, its on the General Config page accessed from the Config menu.
Hood
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Are you all sorted out with the Lynx08, Jim.
I have a Denford Triac modified for Mach3 and control the spindle speed from the PC. Did you cure the slow spindle rpm creep when you had turned the rpm down to zero?
...Sweep
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Hi Sweep, I thought I had sorted out the creep but it started again. Decided to take the LYNX08 unit out of the base unit and mount it in a separate box with its own supply to see if that cures it. I'm a bit concerned as once when it crept one if the red warning lights came on on the Z axis drive. Denford did some strange things to make the spindle lock in the correct position for the tool changer so I;m being carefull, Will keep you posted. putting in M5 S0 didn't solve the problem or the debounce alteration. Jim
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Ok think I have sorted it, My LYNX08 spindle board had a capacitor blown on it, I was told it made no difference to the drive unit, that was true, however I had the caspacitor replaced and all seems OK. AT THE MOMENT!!!!