Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach3 under Vista => Topic started by: FXC on January 11, 2010, 07:17:41 PM
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I recently upgraded my mill with larger steppers and I'd be able to run it faster if only Mach3 would keep up sending the signals. Sure, I could upgrade the XP machine that is currently attached to the mill but why not use my main computer which is new and shiny and beautifully works under Windows 7 64-bit? I bought a parallel PCI card and a long parallel cable, only to run into the lack of 64-bit support of Mach3. There's no way to get it working (if there is, please post here) under Windows 7 x64.
Unnecessary details aside, why ArtSoft, is it so hard to make a 64 bit driver? We're in 2010 and these systems have been around for quite a while now. Why not keep up with the times?
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Well the driver is 32bit and we are thinking about making a 64Bit driver ... We thought he P Port would have been gone by now LOL...
Talked to Art and he is going to setup a 64 bit system to test with..
Thanks
Brian
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You're right... the P port is pretty much gone in most newer computers. Still, even if it involves buying a PCI card to have one, the parallel interface represents the cheapest and simplest solution for a software based CNC controller. And isn't cost the main reason for which MACH exists in the first place? Small machines are getting more and more common and affordable for even the average hobbyist and MACH should be ready for this - an OS agnostic, no fuss install, without the "making it actually work" stage. A user interface overhaul should also be a priority, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.
I don't want to question ArtSoft's programming skills by any means, however if 64 bit systems and their specific quirks are not an area of expertise, then I believe a little outsourcing would be in order. And if that's the only reason for which I'm in the situation described in the OP, I'd be happy to provide some assistance.
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This may sound like heresy(sp?) , but I would not mind paying something for a 64 bit upgrade, new version, plugin...how ever you want to do it.
There is nothing scarier then thinking that the solution you have invested(time and money) in is having a hard time keeping up w the newer operating systems.
My computer does double duty(business apps and Mach 3). I currently do not have my newest computer at my desk, because Mach will not go 64bit.
I don't have the space to have 2 computers.
I hope we see a 64 bit soon.
Mach 3 is a great product.
Everything that Artsoft has done is greatly appreciated.
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Unnecessary details aside, why ArtSoft, is it so hard to make a 64 bit driver?
Maybe because only one person's been able to do what Mach3 does with the 32bit version, and it took him a few years for that one. Forget about the outsourcing, because no one else knows how to do it. :-)
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If I wouldn't fear being called an ignorant, I'd suggest taking the source code and recompiling it for x64.
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Have the EMC people figured out 64-bit?
If so, you could probably figure out how to do Mach3 looking at their code given the origins lo' those many years ago.
I'm more in the camp of wanting to be done with parallel. I want Smoothstepper or something to just work with no compromises relative to the parallel port. Backlash comp and all the rest. It's not clear how good a shape the Mach community would be in if a wand was waved and suddenly no parallel ports existed.
Cheers,
BW
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The parallel port IS already gone. You'd have a hard time finding a new computer with a P port these days. Still, an adapter can be purchased for $10 or less (compare that to ~$150 SmoothStepper and the like). It will be a very long time before anything could ever beat the simplicity (and thus cost) of the parallel port.
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If I wouldn't fear being called an ignorant, I'd suggest taking the source code and recompiling it for x64.
I believe it's far more complicated than that. :-) If it was that easy, it would already be done.
Still, an adapter can be purchased for $10 or less
If you mean a USB to parallel adapter, they won't work. You need to get a PCI parallel port card.
Or, you can buy one of the hundreds of $100 or less PC's on Ebay that will run Mach3 perfectly fine. The one I use was $20.
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I believe it's far more complicated than that. :-) If it was that easy, it would already be done.
I have no idea what exactly this "driver" is and how much work it does compared to the "main" MACH. Either way, I wouldn't be %100 sure that anyone actually tried because, according to an insider: Talked to Art and he is going to setup a 64 bit system to test with..
so... you be the judge.
If you mean a USB to parallel adapter, they won't work. You need to get a PCI parallel port card.
Sure, I was talking about PCI cards. I bought a new one for an all-inclusive $9, which BTW is so cheap that it could be bundled with the software or offered as an option. Buy 100 from the far east and you end up with $5 a pop.
Or, you can buy one of the hundreds of $100 or less PCs on eBay that will run Mach3 perfectly fine. The one I use was $20.
Besides the fact that a $100 PC is kinda slow and simply can't swallow the code as fast as the machine could go, the whole idea misses the point I'm trying to make. No matter how cheap or free, whatever, having an extra PC around is far from convenient, economical or efficient for that matter. A hobbyist buying a small machine should be able to simply attach it to his PC and enjoy the ease of plug-n-play (or plug-n-cut). Such hobbyist is unlikely to have a dedicated workshop or even a garage where space is not an issue. High cost professional equipment will always come with dedicated control units, and if there were only a single market left for MACH, it would be the hobbyist and small machines in general. A decent mill can be put together (or bought) for $1000 or much less... and an extra $150 for some USB solution is unwelcome and unnecessary.
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...I think you can get an idea of how hard it can be based on the fact that just about nothing from Microsoft is 64 bit.
Having done some small programs myself in linux and windows, it can go easy, it can be a pain. You never know.
Anyone having a strong opinion on how "easy" the process is should compile hello world in 32 and 64 bit.
Then do something that talks to hardware and you will begin to get an idea.
Would it be nice, yes. If it were easy, they would have already done it.
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A PC controlling a machine should always be dedicated to the machine. There are numerous software programs that can and will interfere with Mach3 operation, whether they are running or not. Be prepared to remove your anti virus software, quicktime, video editing software, and many others if you want to use your main PC to run Mach3.
And if you're using a stepper driven machine, a $100 used PC is more than adequate.
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A PC controlling a machine should always be dedicated to the machine.
I hate to appear dismissive or worst, arrogant, but that's just old school thinking.
There are numerous software programs that can and will interfere with Mach3 operation, whether they are running or not. Be prepared to remove your anti virus software, quicktime, video editing software, and many others if you want to use your main PC to run Mach3.
Again, this concept was true back in the day when PCs were only able to handle so much. Today, you could play some Call of Duty 4 during the roughing pass and then some World of Warcraft during the finishing pass. Puritans are welcome to set the MACH process to high priority and avoid any possible millisecond of tool dwelling.
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And if you're using a stepper driven machine, a $100 used PC is more than adequate.
Put those steppers on 20 TPI screws, set a smooth microstep and try moving at more than a few tens of IPM... suddenly the $100 PC becomes less than adequate. And it takes up space, too... did I mention that? :)
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My $50 7 year old HP that I use in the shop will drive my Taig at 40,000 steps/inch close to 90 IPM, but it does not work nearly as well as the SmoothStepper. With the SmoothStepper it runs much smooth, 100IPM is no problem and I've had it cranked up to 250 IPM (which is not very stable with the lead screw flopping like mad and the steppers singing at 5K RPM.)
No matter whether the driver is 32bit or 64bit there will ALWAYS be a limit to the stability of a software (interrupt) driven pulse stream, the underlying PC hardware is just not designed to do what Art manges to so 'Artfully' to get out of it. A bit of dedicated hardware like the SmoothStepper can do all the timing critical stuff while the PC does what it does best, crunch numbers and provide a great UI.
Then you have to add in the fact that 64bit driver have to be signed or they won't be allowed to run....
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I agree Jeff. I'd love to go Smoothstepper or whatever. I'll even deal with that cost hit.
What kills me is it just isn't up to the standard of the parallel port. Yes, it can drive the steppers faster, BUT (and it's a big BUT), all sorts of stuff that works fine on parallel doesn't work for Smoothstepper. We have essentially no idea when it will work, and only a very poor idea of who is responsible. I'm not even sure we have an especially clear idea of what might not work either.
Backlash comp is a great example. Smoothstepper says it really ought to be dealt with on the Mach end, but BTW, he's gonna deal with it. But, when? Hmmm.
It's gotten further than GRex, but it is still pretty scary to bet on it because it could either disappear or not be properly supported or wind up crosswise with Mach3 the way GRex did.
The sooner we can get to a solution that avoids the parallel port and the fact that Windows is not a real time OS and that is also fully on par with the parallel port in every respect and is well supported, the happier life will be. Wouldn't it be cool if you could buy an integrated Smoothstepper + G540 kind of device for probably $50-75 more than a G540 after Mariss got done with it and all the Mach3 features worked great?
Hallelujah!
Cheers,
BW
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Bob, I would respectfully disagree that there are 'all sorts of things' that don't work on the SmoothStepper. The number I am aware of is down to a handful. I use quite a few SmoothSteppers in my controls and have to say that the number of things I have found my customers wanted to do that can't be done currently with the SmoothStepper I can count on a few fingers. That's not to say there is not room for improvement.
Art has taken many years to get the parallel port driver to its current level of functionality and Greg has done a great job of capturing 95% of that in just a few years with the SmoothStepper. As Art has said in the getting the first large chunk of functionality is the easy part, the last few % is much, much harder. Another issue is that there are a few tricks that folks can use with the parallel port driver currently that were not designed in 'features', like having two axis mapped the same in Ports&Pins and then selectively enabling them while the machine is running. Obviously that is not the ideal way to implement using a single axis in two different ways but Mach does not support a better alternative at present. I don't think we'll ever see these 'unintended features' replicated in any external motion control device, but I do think we'll see Mach and products like the SmoothStepper grow to support a better way to do things like this.
As we see Mach mature to work better with external motion control boards we will see better motion control boards as well.
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Well now we're just arguing degree, Jeff. My point is we shouldn't have to have that argument and until we don't, it's a problem. Nor is it a few borderline things that nobody ever runs in to and that were cheats on Mach. Nor am I the only guy to raise this issue. I will also say that having seen your post (Warp9 board) on why backlash comp doesn't help, there are probably things I find objectionable that you will choose not to count on Smoothstepper as being a problem, backlash comp being one of them.
I appreciate you sell these things, and I want you to know I think the Smoothstepper is a cool device. I use one on my mill. But it's got some warts that need fixing. The safest best supported answer remains the parallel port.
This stuff isn't that hard. I do software for a living, so let's don't try to kid a kidder about years of development for that last 5%.
Git 'er done,
BW
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I have chatted with Art about the 64 but driver and we are looking into changing how the driver works for this update.. So it is not that we are not working on it at this time, but that we are looking more into the future then just making "some little modification". The goal that I have for this update is to make it so I can have better real time interrupts for some of the higher speed apps that I am looking at such as Ether Cat and so on.. I also am looking to make the P Port into a plugin and removing it from inside of Mach3.
Thanks
Brian
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Having put a lot of SmoothSteppers out in the field, on a variety of machine types, I do have the benefit on drawing from how all of those people are using their machines. I can say that the majority of those folks don't find things that they can't do on their machine because of the SmoothStepper but I know their are many folks that are waiting on one item or another to be added. As I clearly stated in my first comments there is room for improvement. If your arguing about the 95%/5% comment then take it up with Art, those are his words and they are pretty close to being accurate I think. Mach has tens of thousands of users with many thousands of different types of CNC machines and computers. Finding the right formula that works for 99.9% of all the combinations of machines, PCs, drivers, etc is not an easy task. Just in the last six weeks or so there have been several new versions of the parallel port driver released as Art was trying to find the right formula for timing that worked on the widest variety of PCs. Even after all of these years working on the driver he is finding room for improvement and fixing bugs. I just don't expect any external motion control board to be different in the development cycle than Mach or the parallel port driver itself.
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left of centre here but since i can capture a printer port in both VMware, Sun Virtualbox et al would mach run hassle free in a 32 bit VM under a 64bit OS? If you are desperate enough to HAVE to use the dedicated controller pc as a standard work pc too (which i completely disagree with) then this may be a solution?
Im *ss deep in setting up EMC in a VM just for fun so (which DOES work) so not really any time to test this, but someone else may have?
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Honestly, the real question is "What advantage does 64 bit get you"? 64 bit Windows really only improves a few things: You get support for more than 4Gb of RAM, and can use more than 2Gb of RAM in a process. You get address space layer randomization which can prevent or protect a lot of different security flaws in Windows. You get 64 bit extensions which make certain tasks like media encoding 10% faster in 64 bit applications. Realistically, none of that is super useful for a controller PC, unless you're also running some 64 bit CAD/CAM software on the controller PC for some quick design work.
You have a point that it is 2010 and it's high time the software at least worked on a 64 bit PC, but you have 3 or so years till the next version of Windows is released which might be 64 bit only. That's when it really becomes a critical issue.
left of centre here but since i can capture a printer port in both VMware, Sun Virtualbox et al would mach run hassle free in a 32 bit VM under a 64bit OS? If you are desperate enough to HAVE to use the dedicated controller pc as a standard work pc too (which i completely disagree with) then this may be a solution?
Would be interesting to see if that worked, but I wonder if there would be weird latency issues involved. The free XP mode in Windows 7 Pro would probably be the best solution since that's included with the OS and thus basically free. I see people in the other thread talking about it and I'd be curious to see if it would reliably work for everyone.
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Making a printer port as Plugin is fine, but don't waste the whole thing away. Printer port support has to remain, because many of the users make use of old or second handed PCs to run Mach3.
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My 2 cents:
I could buy a Pinto just to get to work and back but I want/can buy a new car with the latest bells and whistles with warranty and support.
I don't have / want to support two cars so that I can also take long trips.
I want to have one PC that I use for CNC sometimes (my CNC work will not be a 24/7 thing) and then use for surfing, design work (heavy graphics0, gaming or whatever when I'm not making dust.
As mentioned before - it is 2010.
Dennis (who bought a PCI card last week and just went to Staples to get a Windows 7 upgrade so I can run old software and use my new CNC router)
end of rant
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Or you can use Mach on Win 7/64 with a SS, Galil, etc, etc and be miles ahead of the parallel port...
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But my router controller box has this 25 pin connector on it................
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And? I know the SS has a cable that goes from the 26 pin header to the 25pin D-dub connector typically found on the parallel port. I suspect others have the same capability.
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Yes, yes, an SS has many many advantages over the parallel port. HOWEVER, using it as an argument in this particular thread is... well, beyond the scope of this thread.
See, the SS discussion would only make sense if Warp9 would suddenly become a charity, supporting - let's say - the noble cause of "CNC for the masses" and then lower the price of a SmoothStepper from $155 to $9 - $15 which is the cost of a parallel port, since newer PCs don't have one.
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Dennis (who bought a PCI card last week and just went to Staples to get a Windows 7 upgrade so I can run old software and use my new CNC router)
I'm in the same situation -- the old WinXP machine I used with my CNC mill finally died.
I didn't notice when I bought the replacement that it has Windows 7 64 bit installed :(
Did the upgrade to Windows 7 Professional allow you to use Mach3? I'm assuming you had to use the WinXP compatibility mode? Any advice?
Steve
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I'm at a standstill at the moment. I've got a $5K router and a $400 PC that don't want to speak to each other. I downloaded the 32 bit XP driver for my BYTECC Serial Card 2 Port CNT-COM-BY-BT-P2S1P + 1 Parallel Port PCI Controller Card that I got to add to the PC. I upgraded my Win 7 to Win 7 Pro to give me access to XP compatibility mode. I did what I knew how to (including changing a few dozen settings in MACH3 per my router manufacturer) and still no go. Seems like the only work around is the ridiculous situation of having two PC's in the shop with the router so I can do work with a current PC while I'm not routing and using the new dinosaur with XP/Parallel/32 bit when I'm routing. Looks like I'll be shopping for a KVM switch so I don't need a new keyboard/monitor/mouse too. Someone pinch me, I thought it was 2010 >:(
What are you planning to do Steve?
Dennis
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Dennis,
If you're running XP 32-bit, there's no reason for Mach to refuse working.
In your particular case, I think the problem is, or could be, the parallel port's I/O address. Most add-on PCI cards will have a "non-standard" address instead of the "standard" 0x0278 or whatever. For instance, my card (Moschip) has 0xd100 instead. You may want to check yours, even if just for the sake of elimination: under My Computer > Properties > Device Manager > Ports > Your Card > Resources
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I'm running Windows 7 Professional 64 bit which allows you to run things in "compatability mode" i.e. something less than that - ideally running the parallel card driver in XP 32bit mode. I don't know how to check that.
We changed the port setting to 0xD800
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You just can't run a 64bit OS with Mach's parallel port driver, it will not work at this time.
Parallel ports are OLD technology that keeps getting duct-taped onto more modern PCs. It is kind of like insisting that your new PC have ISA slots because they are Sooooo much better (and yes PCs are available with ISA slots to this day.) When parallel ports were first used for motion control that was all that was available to the average Joe without a fortune to spend. Today for cases where the parallel port can't be used there are low cost motion control cards available that work with Mach. For my money that is the way to go...
I just sent off a SmoothStepper to an outfit that upgraded all of their PCs to Win7 64bit. They are VERY happy with it as they are able to run their router much faster/smoother than before. I'm not trying to sound like a broken record hawking SmoothSteppers but rather to make the point that they are viable alternatives to the parallel port that in many cases will provide improved performance as well.
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I know that Mach3 / parallel port / 64bit are a no-no.
But.... I was led to believe that Win 7 Pro compatability mode gave you a VM whereby you ran XP 32 bit "within" Win 7 64 bit so in that case you are not trying to run MACH3 at 64 bit.
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XP mode is a type of 'virtual machine' BUT, and this is a really big BUT 32bit drivers (like Machs parallel port driver) will NOT work on a 64 bit machine. Take a look here: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-vista/32-bit-and-64-bit-windows-frequently-asked-questions , under 'Can I run 32-bit programs on a 64-bit computer'.
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Well, I wish I knew that before I bought my PC.
Of course, with the missleading information in the misslabeled "minumum requirements" section of the ArtSoft home page, how was I to know that "32 bit version" is actually a maximum unlike the other things listed like Ghz and RAM that are truly minimums.
If I only knew then what I knew now...........
XP mode is a type of 'virtual machine' BUT, and this is a really big BUT 32bit drivers (like Machs parallel port driver) will NOT work on a 64 bit machine. Take a look here: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-vista/32-bit-and-64-bit-windows-frequently-asked-questions , under 'Can I run 32-bit programs on a 64-bit computer'.
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Well, they can't list every caveat of every possible configuration of PCs out there, it's just not possible. You can use a 32bit processor IF you use a 32bit OS. The PC is just like everything else in your CNC machine you have to know the ins and outs of what to pick and how to configure it to wind up with a system that works well.
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What are you planning to do Steve?
I'm not sure yet!
I was hoping you were going to say that the XP compatibility mode worked for you. Since it doesn't, there seem to be just a few options:
1. Investigate whether my system restore disk will allow me to install the 32 version of Win 7 rather than the 64 bit version
2. If not, buy a retail copy of Win 7 for $200 -- not a palatable option
3. See if it is possible to install an old copy of Win XP on the new machine (probably a nightmare waiting to happen)
4. Give up on Mach3 and switch to EMC2
I'm kind of leaning toward option 4 at the moment, but perhaps that is because I am feeling cranky about the whole situation :-)
I know it is my own fault for not reading more carefully about the Windows 7 *32bit* requirement before buying the replacement PC.
Steve
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I'm not buying that. With so many PC's now coming with W7 64bit it would be so simple to warn people that it's a no go. Look down a few lines - they do it for laptops. Any good businessman knows it's better in the long run to dumb it down - it pays big dividends on the back end with less customer service issues. Or in this paradigm where there is no actual customer service, less forum searching for up to date answers.
Example of that - I've been nosing around the SmoothStepper site for the last half hour and being a noobie I'm still trying to figure out just what it is/does and whether it would help in my situation.
Dennis
Well, they can't list every caveat of every possible configuration of PCs out there, it's just not possible. You can use a 32bit processor IF you use a 32bit OS. The PC is just like everything else in your CNC machine you have to know the ins and outs of what to pick and how to configure it to wind up with a system that works well.
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I know it is my own fault for not reading more carefully about the Windows 7 *32bit* requirement before buying the replacement PC.
Steve
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Why is it your fault? It's listed as a minimum requirement. If you took it literally you'd need to build a PC with a 1Ghz CPU and 512 RAM too.
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Jeff --
As much as we appreciate your contribution to the world of CNC in general, we also have to realize that everything you say here - besides being obviously biased but also good willing at the same time - is not exactly to the point. Let me explain who exactly is this whole "Windows, parallel port, mach and 64 bits" is all about:
1. People running their machines from their "main" PC - typically found in a home office, living room etc.
2. People who spent no more than a fraction of the cost of a "real" machine
3. All others who just don't want to spend an extra $150, regardless of benefits.
No matter how far you look down the road, a parallel card will always cost $10 or less, while a SmoothStepper will always be several times more, $150 or whatever. By definition, a niche product like the SS will never ever reach commodity pricing.
Today already, but even more in the near future, small machines are bought and used by hobbyists for almost the price of a printer. For these hobbyists, cutting some parts every once in a while is perfectly fine with Mach and the noisy, bad, limping parallel port. Trying to convince such a hobbyist to buy a SS is like trying to tell grandma to buy the $35,000 Buick and not the $25,000 one because it has more horsepower and chrome wheels, too.
And one last thing. Unless you start a SS vs anything-else forum post with something like "for a little extra money", your opinion risks being summarily dismissed for originating from a biased party. Again, regardless of the SSs benefits.
By the way, I have one and I love it.
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So biased or not, can one of you guys give me the text version of a block diagram?
My router came with a Testra 4s483 motion controller (http://testra.com/Motion/4x483/specs-4x.html).
If I were to use a SmoothStepper how does it fit in? Is the data flow something like this:
Win 7 64 bit PC USB port to ---> USB cable ---> Smoothstepper ---> parallel cable ---> Testra controller ---> steppers
???
Thanks
Dennis
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While I respect your opinion FXC I have to disagree just a bit...and as I have said before all opinions are biased (that is why I always try to state the reasoning behind my thoughts.) Bear in mind that I sell some of the stuff I talk about but I sell products I believe in, I don't just sell stuff to make a buck. I'm also in the habit of not selling folks a product if I don't think it is the best fir for their needs. I've seen that done in outfits I have worked for in the past and nobody winds up happy in the end.
This quote is just from this evening...
I'm at a standstill at the moment. I've got a $5K router and a $400 PC that don't want to speak to each other.
And I see this same thing all the time. I have a $50 seven year old PC hooked up to a SmoothStepper that works just great. I can hook that same SmoothStepper (I have done so many times) to this brand new laptop and it works EXACTLY the same. The question seems to be of 'value' as opposed to 'price'. Two or three days of anyone's time spent fighting with getting a parallel port to work on are worth a lot more than the price of a SmoothStepper (and a numb er of higher priced options as well.)
I've had some PCs that the parallel port has work fine on and others not so well, it is just pot luck.
Example of that - I've been nosing around the SmoothStepper site for the last half hour and being a noobie I'm still trying to figure out just what it is/does and whether it would help in my situation.
The SmoothStepper is an external motion control card. Mach tells the SmoothStepper what moves it would like all the steppers (or servos) make and the SmoothStepper takes care of generating all the time critical pulses in dedicated hardware. Because the time critical stuff is done in hardware it is super stable and Smooth. To the user the SmoothStepper is pretty much like having two parallel porst worth of I/O and most configuration in Mach is done the same way. There are a few things you have to set that are unique to to the SmoothStepper.
Generally it will work fine on almost any PC, you still want to avoid having programs running that can use up a lot of processor time as it will give Mach fits and stall the communication with the SmoothStepper. I always recommend a separate PC for a CNC control as there is an untold combinations of software that could give Mach fits, you just have to use common sense and only run what you need when using Mach.
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What you have is a stepper drive with a standard parallel port Stepper and a LPH26 to DB25 cable and either a short parallel cable or a MM adapter. Take a look at my webpage here: http://soigeneris.com/Warp9.aspx , it shows all the parts in the same place. You'll want to have a good place to mount the SmoothStepepr board as well which will depend on how your 4x483 drive is mounted. (You can of course ge the SS lots of places.)
You hit the data flow diagram right on the head!
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What you have is a stepper drive with a standard parallel port Stepper and a LPH26 to DB25 cable and either a short parallel cable or a MM adapter. Take a look at my webpage here: http://soigeneris.com/Warp9.aspx , it shows all the parts in the same place. You'll want to have a good place to mount the SmoothStepepr board as well which will depend on how your 4x483 drive is mounted. (You can of course ge the SS lots of places.)
In my case I have a Taig DSLS 3000 w/ 4th axis:
[link]http://www.microproto.com/MMDSLS.htm[/link]
Will the SS work with my setup? Any Mach3 customization required (other than installing the SS driver)?
I'd rather spend the money on a SS than give Microsoft more money for an un-needed extra copy of Windows.
Steve
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It should, you'll need to clone your current profile and change the motion device to the SmoothStepper. as I mentioned before there are a few configuration items that need to be done that are unique to the SmoothStepper as well.
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Thread hijack! LOL :D
Warp9 should pay a commission to ArtSoft on each SmoothStepper sold as direct consequence of Mach's refusal to run on x64 systems.
Or, is this perhaps already happening... who knows? :-X Where's my tinfoil, dammit!
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It should, you'll need to clone your current profile and change the motion device to the SmoothStepper. as I mentioned before there are a few configuration items that need to be done that are unique to the SmoothStepper as well.
OK, I'm gonna trust you on this! I just placed an order for a smooth stepper and cables.
This thread can now return to its original topic: complaints re: Mach3 and its lack of support for Win 7 64-bit
Steve
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There it is! Exactly what I was talking about! Commission is due!
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Well, I wish I knew that before I bought my PC.
Of course, with the missleading information in the misslabeled "minumum requirements" section of the ArtSoft home page, how was I to know that "32 bit version" is actually a maximum unlike the other things listed like Ghz and RAM that are truly minimums.
If I only knew then what I knew now...........
No offense, but this is a misunderstanding on your part about how PC's work. 32bit and 64 bit are completely different systems. They aren't thought of in terms of minimum and maximum. Software is either 32 bit or 64 bit. When it says 32 bit Windows is required, it is. And, you can't run 64 bit software on 32 bit windows either.
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Yep, you got that right - it is a misunderstanding on my part because I didn't know (and may never really understand) the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit operating systems. It sure isn't obvious to a non-computer person that they are totally different and one is not a super set of the other (the min/max conundrum). The point is I shouldn't have to as a customer. You ever heard of the KISS method?
So stop being so stubborn and add a statement that Mach will not run on a 64 bit system and all the others out here will have no doubt about it. It's obviously not as cut and dry as you make it sound or this thread (one of many on the Internet) wouldn't be on the fifth page before the facts came out.
Thanks,
Dennis
Well, I wish I knew that before I bought my PC.
Of course, with the missleading information in the misslabeled "minumum requirements" section of the ArtSoft home page, how was I to know that "32 bit version" is actually a maximum unlike the other things listed like Ghz and RAM that are truly minimums.
If I only knew then what I knew now...........
No offense, but this is a misunderstanding on your part about how PC's work. 32bit and 64 bit are completely different systems. They aren't thought of in terms of minimum and maximum. Software is either 32 bit or 64 bit. When it says 32 bit Windows is required, it is. And, you can't run 64 bit software on 32 bit windows either.
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it is a misunderstanding on my part because I didn't know (and may never really understand) the difference between 32 bit and 64 bit operating systems. It sure isn't obvious to a non-computer person that they are totally different and one is not a super set of the other (the min/max conundrum). The point is I shouldn't have to as a customer.
You shouldn't have to understand?? WHAT!!! Are you serious??? Your kidding, right??? The very nature of CNC IS a basic understanding of computers. I mean.... that's just what it is! Plain and simple! Lets just break it down a bit.
C.N.C Three letters. They have a deeper meaning than just three simple letters. They stand for a larger set of words. It's what we call "an abbreviation"
ab·bre·vi·a·tion
[uh-bree-vee-ey-shuhn]
–noun
1.
a shortened or contracted form of a word or phrase, used to represent the whole, as Dr. for Doctor, U.S. for United States, lb. for pound.
In this case, CNC stands for... Computerized-Numerical-Control.
Computerized-Numerical-Control
Computerized-Numerical-Control
Computerized-Numerical-Control
The very first letter, of the very first word, should indicate that "Hey, I probably need to know something about computers before diving head first into this"
If your a "non-computer person", then you need to be working real hard on becoming one, otherwise your in the wrong playground. It's just as simple as that.
I want to drive a truck, so I went out and bought one last week. Naturally the fuel didn't last long, so it came time to purchase some. So I'm sitting there at the gas station, looking at all the choices. Lets see, we've got-- three separate grades of gasoline, diesel, kerosene, and some ethanol mix. Now, I have absolutely no clue as to which one my truck may be limited to, or even if it is limited to a single choice. The sticker on the gauge says unleaded only. Looks like I'm 'good to go' on any of these fuels! WRONG!!! I put diesel in my gasoline truck, and now it's already torn up! Ya know, I shouldn't have to know technical things like fuel grades, because I'm just a customer. I know that Ford stated unleaded fuel only, but Ford should have also stated clearly that diesel will not work. What is this world coming to.
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Let's face it, most machinists' knowledge is:
1. Number one, aka first, aka main, aka primary: machine tools
2. Number two, aka secondary: computers and software
Starting with Art. With all due respect - honest.
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Well, I wish I knew that before I bought my PC.
Of course, with the missleading information in the misslabeled "minumum requirements" section of the ArtSoft home page, how was I to know that "32 bit version" is actually a maximum unlike the other things listed like Ghz and RAM that are truly minimums.
If I only knew then what I knew now...........
The language says:
◦32-bit version of Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista, or Windows 7 Operating System
What did you really want it to say different? Seems pretty clear and unambigous.
RE Smoothstepper and similar boards, what's probably not clear to a lot of people is that Windows is systematically making it harder and harder to support the parallel. It's pretty well hacked into the architecture. Over time, it may get harder until someday it is impossible. I have 32-bit programs today that won't run in Win 7 32-bit, for example. So, however much we may like the low cost of parallel ports (and the reliability with Mach3), they're a dying breed. How long will it be? Who knows? Forever if you are prepared to buy old PC's and Windows XP off eBay. But, some people don't want to deal with that for whatever reasons. So there needs to be some better answer over time.
The specific problem with products like Smoothstepper is they seem to reach a point where interest wanes, they are less well supported, and people start to wonder about them. Sometimes they die because of it, ala GRex. Sometimes it is just annoying. Smoothstepper, from my perspective, it closer to annoying than dying, but despite having one, I am not sure I can recommend them wholeheartedly because of this uncertainty over their support. Someone needs to finish one so it has all the Mach3 features like backlash comp and then support it well. If it isn't a big enough seller to keep the developers happy, then I wish they'd build more products so they could afford to working on Mach-related products or merge with another company that can help. I've suggested Gecko in the past, but a company like CNC4PC would do fine as well.
In the end, what's on the little microcontroller is just not that complex as software. Someone will figure it out and we'll have it. Heck, there are now people putting whole g-code interpreters into the Arduinos.
Cheers,
BW
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Okay this is a totally off the wall Rube Goldberg solution, but with Windows 7 Ultimate or Enterprise Edition, you can actually boot from a VHD virtual machine file like the provided XP mode VHD. That would give the VM full hardware access and might let Mach3 run the parallel port driver.
I don't know if Chris.Botha ever tried using a different virtual machine package either, but if he found one that worked, you could probably convert the provided XP Mode VM into it. VMWare can definitely convert them, but I don't know about VirtualBox or some of the other free solutions.
And at this point, shouldn't this forum be named "Mach 3 under Vista and 7"?
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I went out and checked, VirtualBox doesn't have parallel port support. http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/990 The good news is, VMWare Player does. http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7itprovirt/thread/260401be-73cc-4fec-8d9a-bc98f7e8a602
You'll need the a copy of Windows 7 Business, Enterprise, or Ultimate to download XP Mode file from Microsoft, http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/download.aspx You'll have to run it once in Microsoft Virtual PC to generate the VMC configuration file VMWare Converter looks for. Here's the Converter http://www.vmware.com/products/converter/ and here's VMWare Player http://www.vmware.com/products/player/
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Or, you can just use a KFlop, SmothStepper, etc and not fool around with all this VMWare stuff.
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I think the ideal solution would be for Mach to provide native USB support and third party BOB manufacturers to go to USB. Since I'm a big fan of Gecko, if they came out with a BOB with USB interface, I'd use it exclusively. I tried a SmoothStepper and had problems. It kept loosing the com connection.
Eventually, these third party manufacturers will have to go to USB, but Mach will have to go first. If Mach went to native USB, everyone else will follow. We know it's possible on both ends. On the hardware end there is the SmoothStepper and on the software end there is the plug-in that makes it work. If you can write a USB plug-in, it shouldn't be too hard to integrate that functionality internally. Someone just needs to come up with a hardware solution that (1) Is as stable as the PP connection and (2) Doesn't cost a kings ransom.
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A controller that talks to USB doesn't have to be expensive. Arduinos are $30 at the low end.
Publish a standard interface that Mach talks to and someone will write the software for a microcontroller.
Meanwhile, I just saw that Gecko says they're adding motion control to a lot of their new drives. That'll be interesting and might be another route away from the PP. Hopefully they'll have better control of the software than the G100 did.
Best,
BW
www.cnccookbook.com
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Well, now it is 2011, any plan or progress on the windows 7 64 bit?
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There is no plan, ans probably won't be one in the foreseeable future. It took several years to develop the 32bit driver, and the person who wrote it (Art) is retired. There's no one else that has the expertise to do it. A recent thread on the Yahoo group about the history of Mach3 points out that virtually all Windows "experts" will tell you it's impossible for Mach3 to do what it does.
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wow. Mission impossible. Quite surprise but there should be a way to override the 64 bit win7 driver signature.
I will have to stick with 32 bit windows 7 for now, even though some of the new machines got >4G of memory.
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Wow... I just read the whole thing. People saying "It's 20xx and asking where is the 64bit parallel support? The irony is killing me! Shouldn't we be saying "It's 20xx and why do we still have a parallel port?" It's hard to buy a printer with a parallel connection these days! That was, after all, the mainstream use for a parallel port.
My current PC (over 2 year old now) didn't even come with a parallel port ,nor PS2 mouse and keyboard, not even a serial port. It only has 1 PCI slot and the rest are PCI express. DVI video connectors are going away in 2012. The old VGA db15 connector is going away in 2015. HDMI is a fleeting moment in time for PCs (to be replaced with DisplayPort). Even USB almost didn't make it for 3.0. And I bet 3.0 is the last "version" of USB, although it will hang around for a while. It was inevitable that the parallel port goes away.
My point is that things change.
The good news is that back in the 80s, you paid $4K for a PC that had a parallel port and these days you spend less than $1K for a PC and an external motion device.
Steve
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PCI and PCIe can be used to add a dedicated serial and parallel port to PC too.
I am currently test a PCI to serial card, and it works very well in Win7.
I will test a PCIe to parallel card and see how it goes with Win7.
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The bad thing is: now, there is no expansion bay on new laptops.
I just did a quick check on Bestbuy, Costco, etc., I haven't succeed on locate even a single laptop allowing me adding extra PCMCIA cards to it.
So I have to stick with desktop, which normally has PCI or "PCIe 1x" slots.
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One other interesting thing I found when I was searching for a laptop with PCMCIA card bay, is, all the machine at local store are preloaded with Win7 64.
None of them came with a Win7 32.
Can you get Win7 32 preloaded from Dell? All my Desktops and Laptops are either HP or Toshiba. If yes, I will order from Dell thereafter.
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Like I said... things change. The segment of machines that you can even add a parallel port to is growing smaller by the day. The writing is on the wall.
For Mach, the question is whether to invest the required resources (time and money) into a dying technology. It will become a business decision that will be quite simple. And we may already know the answer.
Steve
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things did change a lot.
But there are still many doesn't. For instance, Ethernet, serial communication, RS485, RS422, CAN bus, etc. Those industry protocol and hardware probably still will last a very long time. Mach 2 and 3 are more on the industry and hobby side, which probably means a Win 7 64 bit support is a good decision.
As long as used/aged machines are still available, this won't be a big deal. However, when all those aged machines are out of service, Win 7 64 is the only way to go probably in next few years. Or try the open-source Linux. (Is there a 64 bit of Linux for CNC purpose? Just curious.)
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The good news is that back in the 80s, you paid $4K for a PC that had a parallel port and these days you spend less than $1K for a PC and an external motion device.
A lot less, considering Mach3 doesn't exactly require a high performance machine, or even a medium performance.
*Off Topic*I am curious about the USB comment you made, what would they replace it with? SATA? I haven't really been keeping up on the new tech. Im pretty sure my spare computer I run right now(My gaming Comp. died) runs USB 1.0. lol.
One other interesting thing I found when I was searching for a laptop with PCMCIA card bay, is, all the machine at local store are preloaded with Win7 64.
None of them came with a Win7 32.
Can you get Win7 32 preloaded from Dell? All my Desktops and Laptops are either HP or Toshiba. If yes, I will order from Dell thereafter.
You just have to tell them you need it to run a 32bit OS and they will change it. OR JUST BUY the External Motion Device for 150bucks as steve said. Its the smarter choice in my book :p
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>(My gaming Comp. died) runs USB 1.0. lol.
what game are you playing, c&c?
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:D
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*Off Topic*I am curious about the USB comment you made, what would they replace it with? SATA? I haven't really been keeping up on the new tech. Im pretty sure my spare computer I run right now(My gaming Comp. died) runs USB 1.0. lol.
I don't know for sure. It might be PCIe external. But that is an expensive proposition right now. It will get cheaper. And buy the time USB 3.0 is done, there will probably be a new kid on the block anyway. But don't count Ethernet out. They have about got the price of an Ethernet interface down close to that of a USB interface.
USB will hang around simply because of the shear number of USB devices out there. However, I do have some USB devices that don't work with Win 7.
For the end user, USB is very appealing. Plug and play.
But there are problems with USB that people (motion developers) want to get away from. Namely latency. Especially with the Windows OS because USB support was grafted on. Remember that M$ didn't WANT to support it because it hit the Apple first! So it is kind of stuck on like a sore thumb in Windows. The Windows scheduler is what is responsible for initiating the outgoing stream. By default, a packet is sent every 16ms, if there is data to send and it is less than 64 bytes. You can trim this down to 2ms with some USB devices. And you can also do tricks like forcing the packet to 64 bytes. In short, sending short packets at a high frequency is challenging. So what developers HAVE to do is some sort of buffering to ensure that data gets to the device in a smooth enough stream with a quantity of data that is large enough to hide the latency.
Another problem with USB is that it does require a device driver. (same is true for PCIe and friends) If the maker of the USB chip set stops supporting it and decides not to write a device driver for the OS of the day, then it will run into obsolescence leaving the poor hardware developer hanging. Ouch. So something that doesn't require a device driver really looks nice to a hardware developer. (Ethernet anyone? :) )
I believe that low cost Ethernet based motion devices are on the horizon. (That's a hint!)
Steve
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>I believe that low cost Ethernet based motion devices are on the horizon.
Does this mean you can plug the control board to a Ethernet router or switch instead of to a PC? How about the delay by high traffic on Ethernet?
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Yes. That is exactly how I control a Galil Ethernet controller with Mach. Typically, you want to have your controller on it's own network. The simplest most direct way is to connect the Ethernet card in the PC and Ethernet motion device with a crossover cable. No router or switch required.
But... If your network is in good shape, meaning that it's functioning properly and not over utilized, then communication from the PC through a switch to the motion device is perfectly acceptable. I have a 10Mb old school network that I use and it rocks. The latency is in nanoseconds as compared to milliseconds with USB.
Steve
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>The latency is in nanoseconds as compared to milliseconds with USB.
It is good to know Ethernet has a great advantage than the USB.
Do you have a link to your Ethernet device?
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The advantage the Ethernet has over USB is purely for the developer. Once you beat it into submission, the devices perform quite well. There is nothing wrong with USB.
I use Galil controllers. http://www.galilmc.com/ (http://www.galilmc.com/) The Vital Systems DSPmc also uses Ethernet. Mesa http://www.mesanet.com/ (http://www.mesanet.com/) is prototyping an Ethernet device as we speak and they already have a USB and PCI/PCIe devices. Smooth Stepper is what I would be using if I was driving steppers. It flies! I saw a machine running it and I was super impressed. Then there is K-Flop too (That one looks nice. I wish I could see it in action as well.).
My point is that external motion devices are the future. USB and Ethernet. There will be plenty to choose from that are within the grasp of the hobbyist. And once someone converts from the parallel port to one of these devices, they will wonder why they didn't do it sooner. The speed and smoothness are "unparalleled". (pun intended. I could not resist! :) )
Steve
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I would agree, I recently ran a Ethernet based 6axis motion controller and was very pleased with it.
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I am running a smoothstepper under Win7 home premium 64 bit. Works good. Working out a electrical noise issue that knocks out comms periodically, but I have ID's the specific source and working the issue to get it running 100% (yes, it's a new installation). It runs my machine *much* better than the PP driver ever did.
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My CNC PC (XP, Dell circa '99 w/native parallel port) just died -- long story but involves pilot error re-purposing it to fix a Land Rover(!). So I just built a PC from component parts. For ~$400 I now have a lightning fast PC (specs below). This PC runs Win7 64-bit (Intel dual-core i3, 4GB). Since it was piecemealed I had to buy a parallel card (actually serial/parallel combo card). This homemade PC rivals my $2,500 dual-proc quad-core Mac Pro [8 cores w/10GB of RAM] in single task activity. (Of course my Mac Pro crushes the new PC -- I run Mac OS, Win7, Win2k, AND Ubuntu simultaneously at full speed on my Mac Pro. Yes, I'm spoiled.)
The tragedy is that I first installed Win7 32-bit, realized what I had done, and reinstalled 64-bit clean -- obviously, since it's a 64-bit architecture. Then I spent an hour getting all the right apps installed, drivers configured right, tweaking & customizing it, and THEN I realized that Mach3 only had 32-bit parallel port support. So while you guys have been going on for a while about Mach3/Parallel/64-bit/USB/etc, I just realized this TODAY. Ugh.
Ok, so now what?! I have these choices:
1) Reinstall clean with 32-bit, lose the 64-bit benefits, but gain Mach3 native parallel port support
2) Stick with 64-bit, buy something like SmoothStepper, but deal with yet another component (and cost)
3) Stick with 64-bit, try a VM (XP mode or VMware), and hope that the Mach3 driver works -- while everyone has hated on this, I've never seen a confirmation or denial
4) Stick with 64-bit, take my dormant Arduino, and take this to the next level, albeit months later
#1 *seems* wrong long-term. #2 *seems* unnecessary. #3 will definitely involve a lot of work and maybe little results. #4 means lots of time. Where are all the #4 folks?! Shouldn't CNC be USB (3.0!) now?! The signals running over these wires are not uninterpretable. I don't doubt that the Mach3 parallel driver works magic; but that's because it's parallel -- it shouldn't have to for it's purpose. Even if you had a Calabi–Yau number of axes on your CNC, it wouldn't be soaking up bandwidth or confusing components. Hopefully someone will point me to the Arduino solution to this problem so I can go with #4. But right now I'll probably try #3, get frustrated, and end up on #2 or #1.
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What are the benefits of a 64bit OS? Really? Why do you need to address more than 4 gig of memory on a computer that runs a CNC controller? Sure, the hardware is 64bit, but just because it's 64bit doesn't mean you have/need to use it.
Here is an analogy: I have a 800 HP engine in a 67 Camaro. But do I use that 800 HP to go to the grocery store? No. I use my 185 HP grocery getter. :)
If you want to use the PP, do option #1. You have your Mac to play on.
But I would do option #2. Just add $159 to your $400 PC and you will be very happy. Make that leap and I promise you that you will never want a PP again.
Option #3 (the VM stuff) is not going to work. I run VMs for a lot of things in my day job. And I can promise you that this option is heading down the wrong road. The host OS has dominion over the guest OSes. So even if the PP driver did work, it would not work correctly as it would not be the hos OS that it is running on! Expect really crappy timings if it even works.
I would be doing Option #4 along with Option #2. Just for the fun of it! (Been thinking of getting one of those Arduinos for myself)
Seriously guys, 64bit Windows PCs are really only needed for insane things.
If you run multiple VMs for development purposes, you might need a 64bit OS.
If you calculate PI to the x trillionth precision, you might need a 64bit OS.
If you run a 3D modeler with thousands of parts on an assembly, you might need a 64bit OS.
If you have a word document that is larger than 4 Gig, you might need a 64bit OS. (only possible with Office 2010 as that is the first version of Office that is native 64bit!!!!)
My question to all is this: Did you find yourself needing a 64bit OS last year? Or the year before that? Or the day before you 32bit PC died? Where you said to yourself "Damn, if only I had a 64bit OS I could conquer the world!"
Steve
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64 bit os can use memory more than 4G, which is a huge plus than the 32 bit os.
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64 bit os can use memory more than 4G, which is a huge plus than the 32 bit os.
For use as a CNC controller you need more than 4GB? Not really.
In my mind it makes no sense to worry about getting a blazing fast CPU and multi-GB of memory when a modest PC and an external motion controller will work much better for about the same price.
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For those of you that are pushing the smoothstepper, have all the issues been fixed on it? Backlash, and weren't there other issues as well?
Thanks,
Dave
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You're absolutely right. For driving the CNC controllers, a beefy PC is unnecessary. But there are still a few legitimate reasons why a powerful PC is worth considering. (Stop reading here if you don't care about these reasons or don't want to hear about the specs of the PC I just built.)
* If you must buy a PC, building your own PC gets you a high-end machine for the same price as a less powerful brand name machine. See below.
* If you're going to do anything else on the PC besides control the CNC itself, you might have memory constraints. For example, I use Adobe Illustrator to do some designs (the simpler 2D variety) that I import into Mach3. Any design app is a hog.
* For people like me (crazy & irrational software people), not having a blazing fast PC is unthinkable. Over-provisioning your hardware is a common disease of my people and thus a primary driver of debt. ;)
Below is the spec list for the machine I just built (cost ~$425). Summary: Dual-core 3.2GHz, 4GB, 1TB == the machine absolutely flies running Windows 7 (64-bit). Putting it together only took a few hours & installing XP Mode was trivial - although I haven't confirmed it works with the driver yet.
The SKUs and prices are from Microcenter. Their prices are generally much higher than online retailers, except when it comes to PC components for whatever reason. Plus if you order online they will pick the pieces off the shelves for you in 18 minutes. You show up with the receipt and walk out with a bag. If you live near one of their stores, this is sweet.
One thing not included below is Windows 7. As a Microsoft alumni, luckily I can buy Win7 at the company store for next to nothing. Still, even if you have to pay full price, this could still be cheaper than buying a comparable machine brand name.
SKU - DESCRIPTION -- PRICE
671099 - P7P55D-E LX LGA 1156 P55 ATX Intel Motherboard -- $124.99
095117 - Core i3 550 3.2GHz Socket 1156 Boxed Processor BX80616I3550 -- $99.99
217547 - NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT 512MB GDDR3 PCIe 2.0 x16 Video Card -- $72.99
646901 - Barracuda 1TB 7,200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive ST310005N1A1AS-RK -- $69.99
660787 - Gold Series XTC Cooler 4GB DDR3-1333 (PC3-10666) Dual Channel Desktop Memory Kit -- $49.99
019133 - Elite 360 Slim ATX Mid-Tower / HTPC / Desktop Convertible Case -- $35.99
907790 - ModXStream Pro 500 Watt ATX EPS12V Modular Power Supply -- $64.99
436162 - Serial + Parallel Combo PCI Card -- $27.99
977116 - ZEW1642S 802.11n Wireless PCI Adapter with Fixed Antennas (my CNC cart is mobile sans power) -- $24.99
Note: Prices above do NOT include rebates, which are quite significant. (>$150)
While slightly over-provisioned, it's not like this is an insane machine; it would've been easy to spend another $150-$200 to enter the high-end category. Still I have full confidence that I could repurpose this machine for just about anything in the next 4-5 years.
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Dave who is 'pushing the SmoothStepper'?
Have all the issues been fixed on the Parallel port driver been fixed? How about Galil, DSPMC, etc, etc??
The answer for all of them is no! They all will always have imperfections.
So what is it your getting at Dave?
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I was dead serious, wasn't getting at anything ???
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I think Dave just wants to know if the long promised features that were missing have ever been added. I don't think he has any agenda.
What about the slaved axis homing? I'm undecided between the Smoothstepper and KFLOP for my next machine?
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I still have not seen anyone 'pushing the SmoothStepper', so the phrasing of the question seemed odd to me.
What about the slaved axis homing?
Slaved homing has actually worked for quite a long while now. Depending on how you had you machien set up, how the home sensors were configured etc you could experiance some problems (clunking as the axis de-slaved was one of them). The homing sequence has been completly redone the last couple of months and it seems to be working very well according to the feedback on the SS forum.
Here is a list of recent changes from teh downloads page of the Warp9TD website:
2011-01-19 PlugIn: SmoothStepper_v17bd.zip
- Optimized USB data packets so that data is transmitted without delay.
- Homing changed from gcode movements to jog movements. Max Homing distances needed to be removed from the options.
- Homing is very accurate now. A variability in the timing was removed.
- Trajectory data from Mach was optimized to reduce the time for Feed Hold and Feed Rate Override to take effect.
- The Verify function was implemented, though it does not operate the same as the Parallel Port driver. To operate the same will require a change in Mach. Verify for slaved axes needs to be modified since it does not report both axes (TBD).
- SwapAxis is implemented now. Please see http://machsupport.com/docs/Mach3_V3.x_Macro_Prog_Ref.pdf. Page 97 of the PDF (91 of the document) shows the documentation for SwapAxis. ResetSwapAxis is on page 70.
- "Current Hi/Low" is now functional. This output will be asserted when the device has been idle for a few seconds. It's purpose is to put motor drivers in a low power state.
- A bug was discovered in the routine that receives data from the device. If the data is corrupt, the software would get into an infinite loop. This should never happen when using the Bulk mode of USB since the protocol implements CRC checks and data is retransmitted until the CRC check passes. But it happens with the FTDI driver when heavy amounts of noise is present.
- Pin validity checking outputs friendlier text in the pin descriptions. Several bugs were also identified and fixed in the routine. The software cannot catch every problem, but it can find some. For example, if you define an output on Port 5, it can't catch that because that could be a valid setting for another I/O board.
- Added an option to suppress warnings about suspected pin violations.
- Issues with STOP and ESC were cleared up. In particular there was an issue with a warning about the "SmoothStepper ran out of data in the middle of a move" when the Stop button was pressed.
- Spindle RPM is calculated and set only if the Index input is enabled and assigned to a SmoothStepper input.
- Considerable changes were made in the FPGA. To the user most of these changes will not be evident, but this is where most of the changes took place. Most of the change was a result of the new pulsing algorithm without the hysteresis.
- The motion should reach its commanded position now. In previous designs, hysteresis was built into the step & direction signals. If a direction change occurred, the hysteresis would prevent the step from being output too close to the direction change. This resulted in an offset of up to one step. Error was never accumulated, but could be off by one step at any time. The new plugin has a new method of ensuring setup & hold times are met without the hysteresis.
- Fixed a bug in the debounce circuit. When a new threshold was written, the current count was not being reset.
- For what it is worth, the drive current from the FPGA to the USB chip was doubled.
- A bug was fixed where the motion could speed up briefly when a home or limit switch was asserted.
- Filtering of the USB chip's control signals was implemented. The data lines are read multiple times and operation will not continue until it two consecutive reads are identical.
Backlash comp is being worked on now, there has been quite a bit of chatter about it on the SS forum as well. I would suggest looking there for updates.
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I ordered SmoothStepper 3 days ago & got it today in the mail. 30 minutes after unwrapping it I have my CNC back up & running on my Windows 7 64-bit machine. Hooray!
So far I'm a big fan of SmoothStepper. I haven't yet tuned it; just did a sanity test. I'm going to mount the boards and then get to tuning.
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Well I built a new PC, installed Windows 7 64 bit. Won't run Mach3 so I bunged another hard drive with XP on. Dual boot now, just boot up in XP for CNC. ;)
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I have read this line of reasoning and you have all forgot the basics . What about the fellow who wants to build a machine and doesnt have much money he can get a couple of drives a couple of motors etc and put a machine together working for a few hundred of dollars. That is what mach started from now you all whant to go to a formate where he will have to spend hundred if not tousands on special equipment and buy a whole lot of 3rd party software just to run his machine . Most wouldnt be able to afford that. 64 bit computers were built for gamers and computer nerds who could say look at what I have . Nice but still not needed. I know people still running ther business with 486 coputers. and they havent whent belly up yet. Sorry I get so carried away with this. I just get frustrated.
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For people who wish to use (or keep using) the printer port, it will be around as long as Win7 32bit is. What's that?, 5 to 8 years? So the basics can still be had. It's not going away anytime soon. It's just you can have the basics and Win 7 64bit.
Steve
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Well I am new to this and gaining knowledge before I spend the first nickle so I get the most bang for my buck and try to utilize the equipment that I currently possess.
After reading this thread in it's entiriety and other post here I have gleaned the following:
1. Mach3 will run on a 64 bit system running Windows IF you use an external controller.
2. If you use the external controller, you can run Mach3 on a laptop since the power saving interupts are not there on the external controller.
Please let me know if these observations are not correct.
Thanks
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Correct.
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If you use the external controller, you can run Mach3 on a laptop since the power saving interrupts are not there on the external controller.
Generally speaking you are correct. Windows still has power savings features that should be disabled before trying to use Mach. Many times things like screen savers, processor speed changes, USB port power down, etc can/will cause problems even with an external motion controller. You can set up a Power Profile to shut off the power savings stuff in Windows that you use when you are using Mach. You may also have to kill some of it in your computers BIOS as well.
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Anyone?
Is there anyway to use a64 bit opperating system? besides buy a new puter?
Tinker
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yep. use an external motion controller.
Apparently it is NOT the software, it is the drivers.
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Allegedly, Windows 8 will be 64 bit only, and if it isn't it will definitely be the last 32 bit desktop OS. That's going to force the issue sooner or later.
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Allegedly, Windows 8 will be 64 bit only, and if it isn't it will definitely be the last 32 bit desktop OS. That's going to force the issue sooner or later.
It'll force the parallel port to disappear, rather than be supported. And the cost of CNC will go up, as you'll be forced to use an external motion controller.
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And the cost of CNC will go up, as you'll be forced to use an external motion controller.
Why assume it will 'go up'? I can use a cheap PC/motherboard and a $150 motion control card and have a very nice system. No fussing with the parallel port at all. It is a lot simpler, easier and less expensive than spending days trying to find a mother board whose parallel port will work for a CNC controller or to find PCI card parallel port that will work.. If my cheap PC fails I can move everything to a new PC with no fuss. In my mind the total installed and operating costs drop with an external motion control board.
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From a support standpoint I tend to agree with Jeff.
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Well, virtualization is probably going to remain an option. Especially if Microsoft improves their Virtual PC software. I still have to see if I can get Mach3 running in VMWare Player. That'd provide a free option for 64 bit Windows 7 Pro users and hopefully Windows 8 Pro users going forward.
I think external controllers with Ethernet / wifi support might be the future even more than USB ones. Something like a Beagleboard or a future version of Arduino should easily have enough horsepower for 4-6 axis CNC. Networking support would be pretty great for controlling and monitoring from a laptop and would easily let people switching controller PCs with a software install, not even requiring drivers. I'd bet you could even run a CNC rig off of a modern smartphone now that they're pushing 1Ghz with dual core processors.
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Looks like Microsoft is really trying to go above and beyond with Windows8, It will be interesting to see how well a Web Based OS does.
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Something like a Beagleboard or a future version of Arduino should easily have enough horsepower for 4-6 axis CNC. Networking support would be pretty great for controlling and monitoring from a laptop and would easily let people switching controller PCs with a software install, not even requiring drivers. I'd bet you could even run a CNC rig off of a modern smartphone now that they're pushing 1Ghz with dual core processors.
The problem is just having a fast processor is not enough. You have to have the hardware resources available that can do real time motion control. If you look at the motion control baords available today they all use FPGAs to create 'programmable' dedicated hardware for the task. Small microcontrollers can do a limited amount of such control but the hardware involved not fast enough to match what can be done for the same price in an FPGA.
Haivng used a lot of netowrk connected I/O devices I am a bit undecided on their fit for the general public. Configuration is much more difficult and there are an unlimited number of network issues that can cause problems. I've had such devices get into strange states where you cannot connect to them properly and several hours can be spent trying to get an alternitive connection method to work to 'reset' the device.
I can also picture some guy trying to run his CNC machine through his $50 home router rather than have a direct/dedicated connection to the machine and not understand why it won't work properly and be miffed that he has to go out and spend $20 to buy another NIC to make it work properly (and still give him access to his network for file sharing.)
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Typically every other OS the Microsoft comes out with is junk. Win 3.1 was good. 95 junk. 98 good, ME was junk. XP was good, Vista was junk, so far Windows 7 has been pretty good. Expect Windows 8 to be junk.
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Typically every other OS the Microsoft comes out with is junk. Win 3.1 was good. 95 junk. 98 good, ME was junk. XP was good, Vista was junk, so far Windows 7 has been pretty good. Expect Windows 8 to be junk.
Who knows, the cycle could break(9 Billion in R&D so far would suggest it).
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I won't be the first kid on my block to give it a try.
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lol
I went from 98 to XP to Win7 so Unless it has something extremely amazing I wont even get it, Im happy with Win7. I cant see a need for a 128bit/Web Based OS.
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Loosely related ....
Do you guys see any truth to the following comment ?
The "Things" That You Own. Many of the very possessions that we used to own are
still in our lives, but we may not actually own them in the future. They may simply
reside in "the cloud." Today your computer has a hard drive and you store your
pictures, music, movies, and documents. Your software is on a CD or DVD, and you can
always re-install it if need be. But all of that is changing. Apple, Microsoft, and
Google are all finishing up their latest "cloud services." That means that when you
turn on a computer, the Internet will be built into the operating system. So,
Windows, Google, and the Mac OS will be tied straight into the Internet. If you
click an icon, it will open something in the Internet cloud. If you save something,
it will be saved to the cloud. And you may pay a monthly subscription fee to the
cloud provider.
Thanks,
Russ
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And the cost of CNC will go up, as you'll be forced to use an external motion controller.
Why assume it will 'go up'? I can use a cheap PC/motherboard and a $150 motion control card and have a very nice system. No fussing with the parallel port at all. It is a lot simpler, easier and less expensive than spending days trying to find a mother board whose parallel port will work for a CNC controller or to find PCI card parallel port that will work. If my cheap PC fails I can move everything to a new PC with no fuss. In my mind the total installed and operating costs drop with an external motion control board.
I think it's safe to assume that the majority of Mach3 users use the parallel port. And these people don't have to spend days to get it working. You've been accused of "pushing" the Smoothstepper in the past, probably due to statements like this.
Right now I can buy a $50 PC on Ebay and the parallel port will work with no problem.
If the parallel port is no longer an option, then it'll cost me 4 times as much to get a PC.
In my mind, an external motion device is an unnecessary added expense.
The PC running my router was $25 on Ebay, a PIII with a 1Ghz processor. I purchased a spare motherboard an processor for another $20.
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You've been accused of "pushing" the Smoothstepper in the past, probably due to statements like this.
Why is it that you can't disagree with me without hurling accusations? Why is it that you are afford the opportunity to express your own opinion but not me? I'm offering up my opinion, expertise and experience for all, free of charge. If I like a particular product I am most likely gong to tell other people about it, if I think something is a POS I will likely mention that too. (It is also interesting to note that I did not mention any particular product, you did.)
I do run a business and mention some of the items I sell. I sell products that I like, that I have found to work well, have found to be useful and would use in my own shop. I DO NOT just push the cheapest imported crap I can get my hands on. I also talk about a lot of products I don't sell and I recommend a lot of them if they solve a problem someone is facing. In fact you would likely be surprised that I regularly send links in emails to other 'competitive' sites if they offer a product that better suits someones needs. I also work with my 'competitors' to bundle shipments of our respective products for international customers so they can save money on shipping charges. So am I 'pushing' my competitors products when I suggest them to people.
I think if you actually got to know me you would find I'm the least pushy person on the planet.
I think it's safe to assume that the majority of Mach3 users use the parallel port. And these people don't have to spend days to get it working. You've been accused of "pushing" the Smoothstepper in the past, probably due to statements like this.
Of course most people use the parallel port as it has been out the longest. There also used to be no other affordable choice. Now there are lots of choice in all different price/performance ranges for external motion control products. If these products did not offer superior performance they would not exist, i.e. there would be no need for them.
I do a lot of technical support, at least half of it is supporting folks who have never spent even $1 with me. I can say with a strong conviction that getting a parallel port system to work can be very difficult for some folks. Getting a PC (old or new) that works well from the parallel port is like pot-luck, you never know what you are going to wind up with. That is why many companies go through a tremendous effort to test a variety of motherboards and components to find an optimal solution. If you are good with computers you can get a wider variety of PCs to work but most folks do not have that skill set and the results are quite mixed (and a lot of people just get frustrated and quit).
None of the external motion control solutions that work with Mach are perfect either but they work the same no matter what PC they are on. From a support point of view it is much better for the end user and the person providing support as the potential problem set is greatly reduced. I have a few parallel port machines here and they work well so I won't fuss with them at this time. I've have also spent hours trying to get various PCs to work from the parallel port that just did not perform very good at all.
I'm not pushing any particular product as much as pointing out that the parallel port is not the panacea of motion control I/O choices. There are many factors involved besides the initial purchase price.
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Sorry, making accusations wasn't my intent.
You just made it sound like the parallel port is nearly impossible to get to work. I don't think it's any different than with any external motion device.
I think the bottom line is that a huge number of people that are new to CNC, don't have the expertise that is sometimes needed to get Mach3 to work.
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I have a licensed copy of Mach 3 Ver 2.63. My XP machine is being phased out and replaced with a Win. 7 machine. I use my router mill for 3D carving. I planned on using the 64 bit architecture so I can access all 4 gigs of ram on my machine. Will I be able to update my version of Mach 3 with old license? Will I have to reset all my ports or will the new version accept them and save to the new version?
Ray
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All you do is download the current lock down and run the installer, All that info is stored in the XML you use(I recommend you backup the XML before updating, Just in case).
However, if you are running a PP setup then it WILL NOT WORK on a 64bit OS. If you really want that extra gig of RAM and the 64bit OS then you will need to use an external motion controller(such as Smooth Stepper).
If you don't not want to use an external motion controller then you will HAVE to use a 32bit OS of Win7.
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Thanks Andrew, The machine is coming from my IS team as part of a company wide standardization. They said they could load the 32 bit if needed, but preferred to use the 64. It would be nice to have the extra gig, if I add a 3D design program to the machine like Solid Works. After speaking with my manager, it is a consensus to stay with the 32 bit platform.
Ray
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You should be ok without the extra Gig, My workstation is a Core 2 Duo @2.93 with 2gig DDR3 and a PCIE 512mb 9500GT. Not high end at all but it runs Mach3 and all my programs like a breeze(I do play WoW on it with ultra settings ;) ). If you hit a snag with the 2gig RAM(doubtful) just compensate with a better video card, though, I doubt even that would be necessary.
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The more I use and find out about Mach3, the more amazed I am that it sells for such a reasonable price. Hope that Microsoft never buys it. The price would go to un-affordable for the hobbiest if that were to happen.
Be happy and deal with it's few limitations.
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I am just starting out looking for software and hardware to make and run a CNC 2 - 3 axis machine. This is really stupid question but has anyone tried to run MACH3 in windows 7 64bit but under the"run program under previous version" which will try to run the program like it would run in the 32bit version. Just a question that I have not seen. I know some one has tried but what was the outcome? Thanks.
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'Mach 3' itself runs just fine on Windows 7 64 bit. The parallel port driver does NOT run on 64 bit systems. The parallel port driver is 32-bit only, there is nothing you can do to make it work on a 64bit operating system.
If you want to use a 64bit OS for running a machine than you have to use an external motion control card.
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I just bought a used CNC router, cw really old PC with parallel port. It died on day 2 of my playing with it. I went and bought an older HP off Kijiji for 100 bucks, running XP pro. I loaded all the software non it and it was up and running with no problems. I have not yet switched to Mach3, because then I would need to upgrade the controller to run it. $300 ready to go. I am still a newbie trying to figure things out. I am finding even the demo version of Mach 3 is a large help to me. For those who want all the bells and whistles, do like an acquaintance of mine and spend $25000. Hardly a hobbyists set up.
Given that I make an awful mess in a very short time using it, I fail to understand how anyone would be using the same pc machine to do other work in their shop. but thats just me.
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I fail to understand how anyone would be using the same pc machine to do other work in their shop.
I have a dedicated PC for CNC work. But i also run all the associated programs for achieving the cnc pathing from CAD, CAM, etc.
Have no problems at all, but will say, that when machining only Mach is being used.
RICH
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Sorry, making accusations wasn't my intent.
You just made it sound like the parallel port is nearly impossible to get to work. I don't think it's any different than with any external motion device.
I think the bottom line is that a huge number of people that are new to CNC, don't have the expertise that is sometimes needed to get Mach3 to work.
Gerry, How about place this quote in your signature. I know it is a true statement in my case. It has raised its head many times and I am sure it will again in the future too. Sure glad people like you are here to help!
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Good Day,
I am new to this but I have looked around this forum for about an hour. If I have missed something that is posted elsewhere, my apologies.
From reading this Forum , it appears as if this product is not supported on 64 bit operating systems. If so, is there a way to get a refund on a license ?
I purchased a license from Zen Toolworks. There is no mention of this limitation in any of the product documentation.
Thanks - I am not trying to tell anyone what systems they should or shouldn't develop for. I just wish I had known this in advance.
Thanks again.
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Good Day,
I am new to this but I have looked around this forum for about an hour. If I have missed something that is posted elsewhere, my apologies.
From reading this Forum , it appears as if this product is not supported on 64 bit operating systems. If so, is there a way to get a refund on a license ?
I purchased a license from Zen Toolworks. There is no mention of this limitation in any of the product documentation.
Thanks - I am not trying to tell anyone what systems they should or shouldn't develop for. I just wish I had known this in advance.
Thanks again.
Mach3 itself works perfectly fine with 64-bit systems - you just need to use an external motion controller instead of the parallel port... ;)
scott
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If you want to use a 64bit OS for running a machine than you have to use an external motion control card.
Jeff, does the new ethernet version of the smoothstepper work with 64 bit Win7 pro and have you tested it with Win8 (32 or 64)? I have an SS that I got for cheap off the bargain basement quite some time ago. I hate that thing but am forced to use it in order to support customers who use it. However, I have read good things about the new Ethernet version. You seem to be the go-to guy for smoothstepper, so I would buy from you if I take the plunge.
Last Qs;
Ethernet SS co-exist with Windows network?
Ethernet SS co-exist with Po Keys?
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If you want to use a 64bit OS for running a machine than you have to use an external motion control card.
Jeff, does the new ethernet version of the smoothstepper work with 64 bit Win7 pro and have you tested it with Win8 (32 or 64)? I have an SS that I got for cheap off the bargain basement quite some time ago. I hate that thing but am forced to use it in order to support customers who use it. However, I have read good things about the new Ethernet version. You seem to be the go-to guy for smoothstepper, so I would buy from you if I take the plunge.
Last Qs;
Ethernet SS co-exist with Windows network?
Ethernet SS co-exist with Po Keys?
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I have loaded Win 7 64 bit on a laptop with a plcm ethernet card.
The only problem I am facing is the E stop active high and active low changes on its own, particularly at the time of reboot and has to be changed manually.
Is this due to 64 bit ? I am not facing such problems on other laptops running win7 32 bit with run as win xp option.
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Well the driver is 32bit and we are thinking about making a 64Bit driver ... We thought he P Port would have been gone by now LOL...
Talked to Art and he is going to setup a 64 bit system to test with..
Thanks
Brian
Meanwhile, how is this coming along?
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I'm curious about this too - I have a 64 bit machine running a 32 bit OS so I can use Mach on it, and it *is* a dedicated machine, but it took a while to find it. I also occasionally run cuts with millions of lines of GCode (50+Mb isn't unheard of). I upgraded to this machine because the previous one simply couldn't keep up.
I don't know if this is helpful or obvious, but someone else has posted full source for a Win64 Parallel port driver:
http://www.logix4u.net/parallel-port/26-inpoutx64dll-for-win-xp-64-bit
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Don't expect to ever see a 64 bit parallel port driver for Mach3.
While there will be a new 32 bit parallel port driver for Mach4, the future will be in external motion controllers. Provided all the developers work together and deliver full featured, reliable products.
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I don't know if this is helpful or obvious, but someone else has posted full source for a Win64 Parallel port driver:
http://www.logix4u.net/parallel-port/26-inpoutx64dll-for-win-xp-64-bit
Just in case this leads to mis-understandings.
This is a 64bit port of inpout32.dll which is designed to give user level software simple read/write access to the PP. There is a LOT more going on in Mach's PP driver than this. Loading this driver will NOT make Mach work with the PP on 64 bit systems.
Ian
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Don't expect to ever see a 64 bit parallel port driver for Mach3.
While there will be a new 32 bit parallel port driver for Mach4, the future will be in external motion controllers. Provided all the developers work together and deliver full featured, reliable products.
That saddens me. That "provided" is an awfully big one. I'm not saying external controllers are a bad thing - I think with USB2.0 and up the speed required is more than enough, but it will require additional external hardware that's likely to cost significantly more than the 10 bucks my parallel port did. It adds another barrier to entry for people with limited budgets. It's getting harder to find 32 bit machines, and (legitimate) 32 bit copies of Windows.
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The fact of the matter is that it's just not possible to do what Mach3 does on a 64 bit OS. There's always LinuxCNC, if your budget is that tight.
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For anyone wanting to try Mach3 in a VM on 64bit Windows, have a look at VMLite. http://www.vmlite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=143
Download the XP Mode setup package from Microsoft to use with VM Lite and its setup works with the XP Mode package.
What can VM Lite do that XP Mode can't? Hardware 2D and 3D video acceleration using the host's video hardware. Direct access to other host hardware. Can run on a CPU without hardware virtualization support, which XP Mode requires a patch to do. Can run just about any 32 or 64 bit version of Windows. With a multi core CPU that has hardware virtualization support VMLite can run a 64 bit guest OS on a 32 bit host. I don't think any other VM can do that. VMLite has a full desktop mode where the guest Windows shows its taskbar, icons etc in a window and a seamless mode where guest OS programs acts as if they're running on the host OS, much like how "Classic" worked in early versions of Mac OS X.
Of course a dual or more core CPU improves performance of the guest OS. I use VMLite to run 32 bit XP on a laptop with a Core 2 Duo CPU running 32 bit Vista Ultimate. It used to have a Core 2 Solo Celeron - 64 bit capable but no hardware virtualization support. VMLite had most of its features available but was really really slow. With the CPU upgraded the XP setup runs just a sfast as the host.
The 64 bit on 32 bit setup could work out for running Mach3. Install Win 7 32 bit with Mach3 and its parallel port driver then setup Win 7 64 bit in VMLite and use seamless mode. "Look! I'm running Photoshop CS6 on 32 bit Windows 7!" ;-) Not really but could fool some people.
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I'm hoping someone here may be able to help. I just got my cnc setup, installed mach3 on a windows 7 machine and setup the configs as instructed by the cnc seller. What is really weird is when I test the motors (jog) without any other applications running the steppers barely move; however if I start up another program that uses a fair amount of CPU power (such as Adobe media player, or Google chrome) , the motors run at normal speed. The second I terminate the other program the motors go back to barely moving. Any help at all would be appreciated.
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I'm hoping someone here may be able to help. I just got my cnc setup, installed mach3 on a windows 7 machine and setup the configs as instructed by the cnc seller. What is really weird is when I test the motors (jog) without any other applications running the steppers barely move; however if I start up another program that uses a fair amount of CPU power (such as Adobe media player, or Google chrome) , the motors run at normal speed. The second I terminate the other program the motors go back to barely moving. Any help at all would be appreciated.
I've heard of this once or twice before, several years ago. There's a post here somewhere where someone found a small program to run in the background that fixed the problem. Not sure what the actual cause is. Possibly a specific motherboard-CPU combination that causes it?
I don't recall the exact program used, but it was something like this. http://www.cpukiller.com/
The author of the post I mentioned claimed that his processor was running to fast for Mach3, and slowing it down allowed Mach3 to run perfectly. I believe the problem was something else, as it didn't seem to affect anyone else. But if it works for you, it's worth a shot.
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I am posting here as it seems to be the most up to date thread on here right now.
I am new to this, I thought I could get Mach 3 running on my 64 bit win7 laptop, but now I see that it is not possible for a number of reasons.
So after reading all night, it seems my 2 options are:
to buy an external motion controller like smooth stepper for $190
Buy a dedicated 32 bit Win7 computer for like $150.
If I just purchase a computer like this one :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-OptiPlex-745-DTDEOP745-DT6-Desktop-PC-Windows-7-Home-Premium-32-Bit-/300909452505?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item460f99dcd9
Will I be able to hook up with my parallel port and be good to run Mach 3?
Thanks,
TJ
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I am running Mach3 from a laptop with 64-bit Windows 7 and a Smoothstepper. Everything runs just fine. BUT...
I am trying to install Mach3 on another dedicated 64-bit machine. I have loaded the Smoothstepper driver and the computer sees the Smoothstepper through the device management window. When I try to install Mach3, I get the dreaded "No Driver sensed Installed" message, which I go past because there is obviously no parallel port and I'm using a Smoothstepper. When I try to start Mach with the normal Smoothstepper plugin, and fresh XML (not configured for the machine, just default), I get the window to select the plugin, but it then hangs when I select it. When I move over my XML and screen sets from the other computer, it just hangs on startup, period. I'm taking a guess that there's some issue talking to the Smoothstepper. Any other ideas? What differences should I look at between the 2 computers to figure out what's hanging?
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Update- solved the problem. Uninstalled the Smoothstepper driver (v. 2.08.28) and installed an older version (2.08.14) and things are working well again. Not sure what was going on, but it definitely was not communicating correctly with the smoothstepper.
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I know with windows 7 64bit the system is "protected" from unsigned drivers. There is a way, a program that will put 64 bit in test mode. Maybe that will help someone working on getting 64bit to work..
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Can you provide me with the following:
1. Current version number of the Mach 3 software.
2. I need to run Mach 3 on a Windows 7 64 bit version----How do I achieve this goal? My current Windows 2000 and Internet Explorer 6 machine is impacting my Usage of Mach 3 caused primarily due to Windows 2000 will not support current Internet Explorer software and it has limited my internet communications and research needed in cad/cam related research and design assistance. This is a very important issue that I must resolve. Not getting thru to Artsoft using their email contact forms.
Thanks much
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Windows based PC's would have to be the worst choice you could make for a realtime controller, think about things like plug'n'play, GUI windows/gadgets, multitasking, video, sound and more besides. That the PP driver works as well as it does impresses the hell out of me no matter how many bits it uses. Also the fact that there appears to be no competeion to M3 for PC's suggests that Art's work is extremely clever.
If you went to buy a controller, say Fanuc or Seimens for $10k or whatever, would you expect to find it can also 'surf', play games etc, HELL NO!! Multi horsepower spindles spinning thousands of rpm backed by horsepower level axis servos worth $100k plus all going west because the missus skypes you to get some milk on the way home.
I am not so certain that 32bit and PP are near death either. I have just bought a single board computer, Atom based. There is loads of them out there in all manner of configurations and to rugged industrial spec. Have yet to receive it so may have bought a load of trouble, using Windows 7 Embedded Standard (32bit at my option).
I have every reason to believe these devices and software products will be around for a long time to come
I have spent $8k building my machine and hundreds of hours machining cast iron etc. Why would I not spend $1k and some time to make a suitable controller and protect myself against injury first off and my investment secondly?
Whinging about '64bit support', particularly given the SS solution, seems to ignore the real fact I/we can indulge in innovative CNC for cheap as chips. I was not so 20 years ago, even 10 years. I say go Art and collaborators/community and devil take the whingers!
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BOB would it not be simpler to just use your OLD PC for Mach3 and your machine then use the WIn7 64bit for your design work and SUCH???
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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Maybe someone has already posted this, but if everyone is wanting to run 64 bit to do their CAD/CAM work on and then run Mach, why not use Virtual box to run both 32 and 64 bit on the same machine?? yea it's not the perfect solution but it would work.
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Because it won't work.
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ger21
i take it you have tried it and found it not to work. i haven't played around with virtual computing yet but was thinking about it. is there a reason that you can explain why it won't work?
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If you look in Device Manager on a computer on which Mach3 is installed (and runs!), or more particularly the 'pulse engine' part of Mach3, the
all important paralell port driver, you will see it listed as a physical peice of hardware.
All of the posts I have read indicate that the pulse engine will not run on a virtual machine. You, me and any number of others would love it to be the case but it is not so.
Somone prove me wrong!
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If you look in Device Manager on a computer on which Mach3 is installed (and runs!), or more particularly the 'pulse engine' part of Mach3, the
all important paralell port driver, you will see it listed as a physical peice of hardware.
All of the posts I have read indicate that the pulse engine will not run on a virtual machine. You, me and any number of others would love it to be the case but it is not so.
Somone prove me wrong!
The reasons to use a 64 bit operating system (other than pride and/or bragging rights) is if you are dealing with massive amounts of data and/or need massive amounts of memory. Neither is the case with MACH. My development computer is 64 bit because it is required by Adobe video editing software and the additional memory is put to good use by that software as well as compilers and my animation/visualization software. Complaining that MACHx does not run correctly under a 64 bit version of windows is equivalent to complaining that is does not run on an Apple OS or unix or solaris or whatever. CNC controllers definitely should be dedicated machines, so just build one that meets the published system requirements.
Just because a service shows up on a list does not mean it is functioning correctly. You can have drivers floating around from devices you removed long ago. Sometimes you cannot remove a driver after you have removed the device because the driver checks for the device, does not find it and concludes 'I am not actually here'.
You would also need to understand the difference between open and closed loop. Not as it pertains to CNC motors, but in general. If software is sending data into a black hole on a wing and a prayer (open loop) then it will run along happily even when the data is not getting where it is supposed to go. Task Manager reports that it is running, but that does not mean it is actually doing anything useful.
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Maybe someone has already posted this, but if everyone is wanting to run 64 bit to do their CAD/CAM work on and then run Mach, why not use Virtual box to run both 32 and 64 bit on the same machine?? yea it's not the perfect solution but it would work.
Virtual machine may be a problem but nothing to stop you having both XP and 7 64bit installed on two HDD or even two partitions running as a dual boot machine, making it possible to boot one machine to either 64bit to run fusion360 to dersign create g-code or 32bit to run mach3 and process g-code, all that is required it to make files accesible to both OS.
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The fact of the matter is that it's just not possible to do what Mach3 does on a 64 bit OS.
WHAT?
That doesn't make a bit of sense. How on earth would a 64bit OS not be able to handle what a 32 bit OS can do?
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Mach3 is a 32 bit only with the p port external controllers what ever they take
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The fact of the matter is that it's just not possible to do what Mach3 does on a 64 bit OS.
WHAT?
That doesn't make a bit of sense. How on earth would a 64bit OS not be able to handle what a 32 bit OS can do?
Mach3's driver runs at a low level in the OS, very similar to a virus, and actually has some control over Windows. Microsoft has made changes to the OS that make this no longer possible.
It's not just some standard Windows program we're talking about. Mach3 needs to send up to 75,000 pulses, every second, to each of up to 7 axis, without Windows getting in the way.
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not everyone understands what Art did let alone Microsoft
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Mach3 will run on any Windows OS from Windows 2000 through Windows 8. The parallel port driver included with Mach3 will only work with 32-bit DESKTOP computers with versions of Windows 2000 through Windows 7, but will not work with any 64-bit version of Windows or with Windows 8. Windows 8 and 64 bit versions of windows require an external motion device ( Ethernet Smooth stepper needs no drivers and mach3 has support for it ) which can be purchased very reasonably.
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Ok Christopher, so after reading all 16 pages of this post;
I now have Mach3 running on Windows 7 using a UC100 Motion Controller and now i want to get a new Windows 10 64 bit Laptop Computer it should work properly.
CORRECT?
Thank you,
Tony
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Correct! I have this exact configuration - Windows 10, 64-bit and a UC100 Motion Controller. Works perfectly. I've even done some mods on my controller box to do some advanced functionality (including adding an E-stop input, VFD control by Mach3, etc.) and have had no issues.
Stephen "Highspeed" Kruse
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Great Thanks Highspeed. One more question. Since i am getting a new puter , is touch screen supported by Mack3
Thanks,
Tony
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Again, I can attest to this too. I have a touch screen laptop that I am using and it works great. Some of the controls on the screen may be a touch too small for my liking so I have to pay particular attention to exactly where I'm touching on the screen, but it works great. I've also added an XTc HB04 wireless MPG to my system and that makes things even simpler to use.
Highspeed
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Glad to see I can Help. The Ethernet Smooth Stepper Doesn't need drivers for the Ethernet connection that's part of the Computer and can be connected to 3 parallel ports. Mach3/4 is working with the ESS so no need to worry about upgrades in the future. Network ports will be around for a while. If you are using internet on the same computer use a separate Ethernet card. Not advised to use a external router.