Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: bowber on January 10, 2010, 03:24:17 PM

Title: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: bowber on January 10, 2010, 03:24:17 PM
Title says it all really!

I'm looking for a supplier of small quantities of titanium (hobby use) in both flat and bar stock plus any recommendations for machining it.
I've seen some info that says HSS tooling is still the best and also don't let the tool skid as it'll work harden the surface instantly.
So what's others experience with titanium.

I'm looking to use titanium on a small job for it's chemical resistance not it's strength to weight so not sure the grade will make much difference.

Regards
Steve
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: Julian on January 10, 2010, 06:01:03 PM
http://www.goodfellow.com/home.aspx

http://www.goodfellow.com/E/Titanium.html
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: bowber on January 11, 2010, 04:09:07 AM
Thanks

Looks like a usefull site for many materials, tried to get to the price list though and it didn't work, I'll try again later.

Thanks
Steve
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: zephyr9900 on January 11, 2010, 05:26:36 AM
Steve, McMaster-Carr here in the US ( http://www.mcmaster.com ) is a reasonable source for small quantities of materials (including Grades 2 and 5 titanium), but the shipping to the UK might be prohibitive compared to a local source.

Randy
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: ventuseu on January 11, 2010, 11:48:03 AM
I've had good luck with Titanium Joe:

http://www.titaniumjoe.com/

(Besides, they also sell Tee shirts with their logo...)

SF
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: simpson36 on January 12, 2010, 06:12:35 PM
Titanium is not typically used for chemical resistance.

You might do better looking at stainless or the nickel alloys like Monel and Inconel.

Regular 316 SS is pretty much immune to about everything. Horrible to machine, though. What chemical are you resisting?
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: zephyr9900 on January 12, 2010, 11:14:29 PM
simpson36, 316 is not all that chemical-resistant.  Common ferric chloride (available at any Radio Shack or Radiospares, depending on where you live and used to etch printed circuit boards) will laugh in the face of 316.

And in the biotechnology instrumentation industry, we went from 316 (even passivated or electropolished) to titanium two decades ago.  Now all PEEK and ceramic and other non-metals in the liquid path.

Randy
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: edvaness on January 12, 2010, 11:56:44 PM
Titanium is'nt that bad to machine. I machined a pistol scope mount from a solid block with highspeed tool bits. Run sfpm, aprox half what you'd use for mild steel. Save the shavings . they burn nice. Magnesium burns nice when you throw water on it. Titanium , just blow on it. But, carefull , burns very hot , got scars to prove it.  ;D
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: simpson36 on January 13, 2010, 04:50:06 AM
simpson36, 316 is not all that chemical-resistant.  Common ferric chloride (available at any Radio Shack or Radiospares, depending on where you live and used to etch printed circuit boards) will laugh in the face of 316.

And in the biotechnology instrumentation industry, we went from 316 (even passivated or electropolished) to titanium two decades ago.  Now all PEEK and ceramic and other non-metals in the liquid path.

Randy


Ferric chlodide does not come in titanium bottles  . .  probably because there are cheaper alternatives.

316 is the standard in petro chem. Beyond that are the nickel alloys. Titanium is 'bio-compatible' and considering that instruments tend to use tiny parts, and that 'bio' is just another way of saying 'cost-is-no-object', it is not surprising that any bio-industry would use titanium. Titanium is used for dental parts and bone replacments too, not for chemical resistance or strength, but because it is 'bio-compatible'.

Titanium is not resistant to 'common' chemicals like sulfuric acid, which is used in anodizing, which is a 'hobby' activity. Not too many hobby level bio instruments or bone replacements being made with converted asian CNC machines, but lots of hobby anodizing rigs are in use.

However, pointing out specific chemicals that attack specific metals is academic when we do not know what chemical the OP is concerned about. Titanium is nearly 10 times the cost of 316 and comes with some hazards relative to machining it, so it seems prudent to know if is needed before taking that plunge, methinks. If he is building a ferric chloride pump, then he's on the right track, although I have heard of success using plastic aquarium pumps, which may be slightly less expensive.  

Titanium has good corrosion resistance to some chemicals, no doubt, but so do other less expensive materials. Titanim is used for primarily for its strength to weight ratio, being about twice as strong as 7075 (and 10 times the cost). With the notable exception of 'bio-compatible' applications, I would be surprised ot see titanium specified for chemical resistance over cheaper alternatives if strength and weight were not primary requirements.

And incidentally, www.onlinemetals.com has titanium in small quantities.
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: BClemens on January 13, 2010, 06:28:35 AM
Ferric chloride is chemically reactive to everything metallic except titanium. So, that's not a fair comparison. I have a deep rooted dislike for any material that will burn uncontrollably like titanium, magnesium - and like that. Years ago in my machining days, I was face milling a slab of forged titanium with a 6 inch carbide face mill when the accumulated chips under the cutter burst into white hot flames and all I could do was watch in surprise and horror. I'll take a nice mild mannered piece of stainless steel any time over titanium for more reasons than that though. Steve (simpson36) is correct; stainless wins in this book too - depending on what specifically is being pursued of course. The Russians like the stuff - make entire submarines out of it - while Russian citizens eat beans....Stainless steel is much less political too!

Bill C.
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: koko76 on January 13, 2010, 06:35:24 AM
Grade 2, or CP is going to be the easier to machine of the common grades, way better than 6-4. Cuts real nice using insert tools in the lathe and carbide end mills.  I've never had issue with any Ti that I didn't want to be on fire catching on fire, but try and plan my Ti jobs as close to net shape as possible to minimize waste/cost, and I don't let chips pile up all over things.  People make it sound like the stuff is just waiting to catch fire, not really the case, just a little common sense really.
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: bowber on January 13, 2010, 09:57:31 AM
Wow, it sound like I'm making something major!

The chemical resistance I was wanting is a biological product, a waste product to most of us, it's for a errrr..... toilet seat hinge :-)

I did a search and found that titanium is used for resistance to corrosion in some sewage treatment areas, so I thought I'd try to get some small quantities. Yes I know, overkill, but it could be a fun project and a talking point. Hinges that cost more than the toilet.

I also have some nice sycamore that I'm going to make the seat and cover from as well, cut down in our own garden and slabbed for us by the local tree man.

Now I bet no one guessed that use ehh. ;-)

Steve
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: Julian on January 13, 2010, 10:01:47 AM
think i might go and have a long sit down to consider all of the above now

Julian
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: BClemens on January 13, 2010, 10:04:14 AM
A library seat hinge....that's pretty darned important I would say!

Bill C.
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: RICH on January 13, 2010, 09:52:50 PM
Quote
Wow, it sound like I'm making something major!

You are bowber.  ;) We are just concerned for you.......... since the last thing we want to see is failure of your device due to insufficient consideration of application of a material to its enviroment. You don't want the device ending up in a place it dosen't belong. Most folks have enough junk in the trunk and don't need anymore.  This is a public safety concern so don't minimise it.  ;D

RICH
 

Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: simpson36 on January 14, 2010, 04:36:25 AM
Well, now that the application is know, I can see the need for Titanium. Ferric Chloride is child's play compared to CBT (Caustic Burrito Turd) . . . . LOL!! In fact, titanium's resistance to CBT pitting indicates that the entire seat should be made from that material. CBT can adhere to wood and then contaminate any subsequent contact . . .  :'(

OK, seriously, titanium is an excellent choice for a toilet seat hinge with only one small concern . . . . the application is in an environment where the presence of methane gas could be ignited by a cigarette and in turn catch the hinges on fire which would then burn a hole in your ass . .  ROTFLMAO!!!!!


Titanium toilet seat hinges . . OMG . . . what next . . . too funny.


Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: bowber on January 14, 2010, 06:32:48 AM
No need to worry about the cigarette/methane gas interface as non of us smoke, well not cigarettes anyway  ;D

The entire seat.... now there's a thought.

As to the material. I've thought it through carefully, resistance to chemical attack, strength to weight ratio (toilet seats are always overloaded) and overpriced, perfect!

Steve
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: zephyr9900 on January 15, 2010, 08:54:12 PM
Ferric chlodide does not come in titanium bottles  . .  probably because there are cheaper alternatives.
No arguments to any of your points, simpson36.  I just pointed out ferric chloride because there are hundreds of guys who are microwaving it and using it in Tupperware on their Kitchen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance_Miller) tables to etch DIY PCB's, it is so common.

And FeCl is large in my consciousness because I'm finishing up on my latest spray etching tank http://www.prototrains.com/etch3/etch3.html (http://www.prototrains.com/etch3/etch3.html) where I have a titanium heater and titanium "spider" for holding the workpiece.

Early on in my etching learning curve, I had an impeller pump that quit working, and when I disassembled it, I found that the impeller shaft had disappeared.  Fortunately I had some 1/8" alumina rod that I could substitute for the shaft.

(Delayed posting because my motherboard died and it took me 2 days to get the old MB and video card up and running... :( )

Randy
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: zephyr9900 on January 15, 2010, 08:56:48 PM
The entire seat.... now there's a thought.
No worries, Steve.  Most all plastics are immune to the "effluents".  10mm PVC sheet would do very well. :)

Randy
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: zephyr9900 on January 15, 2010, 08:59:44 PM
Dang, I wish "quote" wasn't so close to "modify"...  :-\  Where's the "delete" button anyway?

Randy
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: bret4 on January 16, 2010, 08:13:06 PM
I have cut Ti every day at work for the last 25 years. We use only carbide tooling because HS doesn't hold up long. In the long run you will spend less on tooling with carbide. If you cut a lot of Ti, stay with carbide tools. HS drills work fine with it. Most of the time I like to grind drills so the point isn't perfectly centered so the drill cuts oversize a little. This goes a long way in making your drills last longer. Sometimes a standard drill will get dull and you will swear it got squeezed down as it gets melted down in diameter. Hand grinding a new drill will give it just enough run out to cut down on this problem.  Tapping Ti is best done with special taps made for it. Standard HS taps don't tap it worth a darn. I wouldn't plan on reaming it unless you use carbide reamers.

As far as catching on fire goes. Thick chips around .002 thousandths thick or better are really hard to catch on fire unless your cutter is really dull. Really thin chips that are like steel wool burn white hot and are easy to catch fire. Same goes for saw dust from cutting it on a band saw. One time we had someone welding overhead on a crane and some sparks got in a chip barrel full of Ti and aluminum dust from the band saws. It burned and smoked up the whole building so we got the day off due to the smoke. Lucky there isn't much to burn in our machine shop. Big parts will not burn. If you ever get a thick block of Ti to catch on fire you have bigger problems than that block burning. That will take a lot more heat than you will make just cutting it. Even getting thick parts say 1" in dia. red hot to braze it won't set it on fire.

Not sure how 303 Stainless Steel would hold up to whatever you would like to make. 303 cuts nice and is much easier to work with.
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: simpson36 on January 17, 2010, 04:44:34 AM
I'm finishing up on my latest spray etching tank http://www.prototrains.com/etch3/etch3.html (http://www.prototrains.com/etch3/etch3.html) where I have a titanium heater and titanium "spider" for holding the workpiece.

Cool project . .  and kudos for the fine craftsmanship. After pondering the potential hazards of messing with strong acids, and condidering the unsophisticated projects that my limited electronics knowledge would allow, I opted to go with routing PC boards. Very simplistic compared to your rig, but it's fun for me.

Here is my old mill cutting a PCB using my die grinder for a spindle; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Zf_5yHB1I


Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: jacksala on March 20, 2015, 02:31:11 AM
Steve, how did the toilet seat hinge end up ? I'm kinda working on a similar hinge project with titanium (but not a toilet seat  :)). Ive used the main online ecom companies before and also got small titanium pieces, bars, tubes etc from a chinese company www.norstl.com who are pretty helpful and have done some machining for me in the past too. They've done some machining in quite a few different grades which is nice. Bits for bikes, exhausts etc

I think from what you have said given the application anything more than grade 2 would be overkill. The differences in the alloys really only become noticeable in extreme conditions..

Would be good to know if your seat is still going strong !
Title: Re: Supplier of small quantities of Titanium and machining recommendations
Post by: bowber on March 20, 2015, 05:46:17 AM
Hi

Never got round to it as I couldn't find an easy source of Ti, been through another 2 sets of hinges though  ;D

Steve