Machsupport Forum
Third party software and hardware support forums. => Galil => Topic started by: cnc-it on August 19, 2009, 06:59:45 AM
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Hi, I am looking at the Mitsubishi Ac servos and drives as they have the same mounting holes and flange size as My Fanuc 5M and 10M DC servos so would be an easy replacement.
http://www.machmotion.com/Drives-and-Motors-Mitsubishi-Servo-Drives-&-Motors/c47_49/p135/Mitsubishi-50-in/LB-Class-AC-Servo-Motor-with-Brake-&-Drive/product_info.html
I have a Galil DMC 1880 optima...will I still need to use this with these drives..I know the drives will accept the Step/direction that Mach 3 puts out and the drives will close the loop but can the Galil be used like a smooth stepper to smooth the pulse train from Mach or will it not be necessary with these drives..?
John.
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John,
You'll need to add the SM jumpers to the galil board to enable stepper output, but you will then be able to send step/dir at 3 mhz, way more than you'll need.
Download the Galil plugin and manual from the Mach3 site and you'll be good to go.
Kenny
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Thanks Kenny that's great. Thought I had better check before I went ahead!!
John.
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Kenny
I've just done some more reading on the Mitsubishi drives and it looks like they are analogue.
http://www.machmotion.com/pdf/MR_E.pdf
It seems that Machmotion uses its 106 breakout board and links this to each drive via a converter board plugged into the drive so the drive will accept step/direction.
I'm still not sure on this so I have emailed them to get more info.
http://www.machmotion.com/Parts-&-Accessories-Breakout-Boards/c36_26/p158/MachMotion&%2339s-IO6-Breakout-Board/product_info.html
If it is the case that the drives are analogue I presume I can use the Galil to send the analogue signal to the drives but still have the drives reading the encoder feedback and closing the loop...? or would I use the Galil to close the loop...
John.
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John,
iI looked at the Mitsubishi manual quickly, but didn't spot the analog inputs. I'll look again. The analog input if +/- 10VDC will definitely work with the Galil. You'll need to connect the encoder passthru leads to the Galil encoder connections too. Be sure to use the latest Galil Plugin. Good luck, please let me know how you make out?
Kenny
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How is that going to work when both drives and Galil are trying to close/control the loop.
For me, Usually the whole idea of using Galil is to use non intelligent analogue drives?
Nosmo.,
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John,
If the drives are setup in torque mode, with the analog voltage controlling the output torque, the loop is closed in the Galil only.
Kenny
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Thanks Kenny and Nosmoking here is the Reply I received from Andrew at Mach motion:
" John,
What are the old Fanuc motors rated at, as far as motor RPM and torque? If you can get me this info than I can match it up to the Mitsubishi servos and let you know. The Mitsubishi drives have 4 control modes, differential step and dir, +-10v ( I think torque or speed modes) and positioning sequencing normally activated with a digital input.
We have a little adapter card that connects to the top of the drive for easy access to the step and dir and drive error signal. It also allows us to use a standard Cat5 cable as the control cable. We have another mod-jack on the drive for emulated encoder out put, that will be used down the road with a motion controller.
If you will be using the drives in position mode than you can use their on-the-fly-auto tuning, which I think surpasses any other brand of servo drives on the market. "
I can see now that the adapter board is used for easy connection only.
I wanted to use the Galil as I intend to use Etel Ring motors on the 4th and 5th axis and these will be using different drives to the Mitsubishi and may not be compatible with the step and dir out put from Mach3 (still waiting for info on the Etel motors!) ...
John
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Please have a look at Automation Directs DirectServo line. I know that they work very well with the Galil in Torque mode. Also Contact Smurph on this forum, as I believe that he is using the Mitsubishi motors along with the Galil controllers.
Kenny
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Thanks Kenny it looks like I will be able to use the Galil in step and direction mode for the mitsubishis and then set the other two axis for the Etel motors in which ever mode they require.
I'll check the Automation Direct sight and also going look at the Teco motors too..the Mitsubishi motors caught my attention because they have the same mounting hole spacings and flange size as my Fanuc DC motors but it pays to look around :)
John
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i tested my galil 1750 last night with mitsubishi j2 series drive. both in step mode (position) and analogue (speed)
in speed mode setup as below
first of all in speed the motor vibrated like hell when switched on. changing kd to 1 instead of 6 in galil tuning sorted this straight away.
i left the default encoder passthrough counts as 4000 quadriture on the mitsubishi. only used a b a nd z encoder outputs
all i can say is what a combination! so smoothe !!!
using the tell error function at any time during motion it was never ahead or behind by more than a few encoder counts. as soon as it stopped the motor always -1 counts so absolutely spot on and in position! (i ran full speed range on the servo with accelerations / dec from 0 to 2 seconds)
conclusion? amazing combination!
with so many really cheap yaskawa and mitsubishi drives and motors on ebay why bother with old dc stuff you have to try to attatch encoders to etc. obviously unless refitting an old dc drive machine. if you find during a refit or later that one of the old dc drives is a let down, go for the mistsi as a replacement!
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Thanks for the feedback batwell, nice to hear someone trying the J2 drives..lots available on Ebay I've noticed.
Are you putting them on a mill..?
John
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i buy any mitsi i can get cheap on ebay. mr-h, j2, or j2s . they are all good! the h series have to be hard wired as plugs are virtually impossible to find!
i started off with 2 mr-h series 2kw drives for £10 each which got me intrigued so i had to learn about them, and man there was a huge learning curve!
the hardest thing is making a pair as there are loads of drives and loads of motors coming up all the time. the mitsubishi drives are motor wattage specific and not forward compatible. so a j2 wont drive a mfs or kfs series motor but are backward compatible so the j2s series will happily drive a mf or kf motor etc. they use serial encoders which transmit model and motor info so a wrong combination just shows an error alarm.
the encoder passthrough is a great way to slave servos too without using further outputs from mach etc, with the j2s this can be done serially too!
the older motors have resolutions as low as 8192/rev the newer motors up to 15 bit. (130000 odd) either has plenty of resolution for mach/ galil mills etc
i probably have a collection of over 100 "pairs" here now ranging from 053 to 2kw sizes.
up to 750 watts can be run from single phase 230volts. higher than that your into 3 phase.
i got fed up losing steps on a mini boxford lathe so i fitted servos 053 with j2s drives (£100 per pair roughly) total accuracy now!
the 2kw drives i have will be going into my refit of a 3metre biesse router but im setting it all up using the old dc stuff with galil first so i can still use the old controller until its done! this old 1993 machine has 500ppr encoders and still gives pretty good accuracy. by the way 2kw is the output of the starter motor on my mercedes sprinter so you can imagine the torque these things produce!
the 400 watt size are great for a medium sized router , plasma etc. if work didnt keep getting in my way i would have my plasma table finished by now!
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I know what you mean about things getting in the way!! I have a Galil DMC 8 axis pci card sitting here..just wish I could find more time to get it set up on something..
John
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yesterday i set up some cheapie ebay yaskawa sgd s drives. couldnt be simpler!
started with all drive parameters as standard apart from setting 300rpm per volt
with all the pid on galil set to 0 letting the drive tuning take over. (although my drives arent tuned quite right yet as i was bench running them they were holding around 1 to 2 encoder counts off. which is a little annoying in mach as the 4th decimal place dithers a bit)
another very smooth combination. im sure once the servos are auto tuned correcltly they will be nearly as nice as the mistsubishi (but cheaper)
the only thing id say against the yaskawa is the requirement of an external 24v for the i/o whereas the mitsubishi has this onboard.
thanks to artsoft mach and galil we can all have totally accurate fully closed loop control now. thanks for all your hard work guys!
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The Yaskawa stuff is pretty nice,isn't it? :)
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Hi I have managed to aquire a set of 3 Mits MR-J2-40C-S100 drives and 3 HC-MF43K-EU servos.
I'd like to run them with a Galil card but I can't seem to work out what command signal they require.
They only seem to take a manual pulse Generator input on the CN1A terminal or can have a simple set of commands downloaded to them via RS232 or RS484 through the CN3 terminal. Maybe I should have the general purpose A series instead of the C series?
The manual says these are the same spec as the A General purpose series with "added functions" Can I set parameters to change the functions of the pins on the CN1A terminal?
It says in the manual that it will accept a "Differential line driver or open collector system"
Thanks John
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ooh. was this the set off ebay?
the 40c series are the point to point programable motion drives, pretty sure when i tested one (could have been cp model) i couldnt get it to work in general form.
also the s100 means its a weird one. much harder to find info on.
the mf-43 motors (not mfs43) require mr-j2-40a drive or mr-j2s-40a to work with mach.
they can be used with normal step/direction with mach in open loop (but closed loop in the drive which works perfectly) or in torque mode with the galil for closed loop operation.
if these were the ones on ebay uk i did enquire with the seller how they should interface but he quoted me about the analogue overide not the analogue input.
by the way for the 43 power motors you must get 40a drives or thy wont be compatible and will throw an error when connected.
if you get some and need help setting parameters etc get in touch with me. if your stuck for some for an immediate job i have loads of mitsubishi in stock here fully tested
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Hi yes slipped up with these I think! Do you have the 40A drives available. If so what price would I be looking at?
The info on setting parameters would be a great help.
Thanks John.
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contact me via mercuryleisure uk website. i can send you setup software. il check what ive paid and come back to you
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Hi just sent you an email through mercury leisure.
Cheers, John
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Have a chance to get a Mits 2KW servo with the super encoder on it. Was thinking of using it for a servo spindle. Problem is it has a brake on. Is it possible to remove the brake or will the servo have a longer shaft than usual to accomadate the brake. If it can be removed will the encoder need realigning. Presuming the encoder is not pinned for location.
Thanks John
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You could remove the brake spring and pad, if it is that design.
All the Mits. encoders I have encountered on AC servo's have a keyed coupling.
This is in order to change an encoder in the field.
Some times a spindle brake is handy, you can set it up automatic or manual usually.
e.g. energise in auto when a M3/M4 is issued.
N.
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Thanks Nosmoking that might work. Was worried about disturbing the encoder but if it's keyed that would be good.
I was thinking the break would be fine if it disabled on power up but as it's just a holding break I thought it might be damaged if I had to hit power stop at the full 3000rpm!
Plus putting tools in might be a problem or if I needed to rotate the spindle to check inserts.
Sounds doable though.
John
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Quick question on the Galil ICM. I have a ICM1900/amp, is this the older version of the ICM2900 or something different?
Not sure what the "amp" refers too.
Thanks, John
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The /Amp is an on board feature of included servo drives (amps), the only problem is they are usually rated for Galil supplied brushed motors.
So you have to use other motors within these specs.
Galil typically have used A-M-C drives, just relabled, the /AMP usually uses these.
N.
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Ok thanks. All there seems to be on the unit is rows of terminals and one connector for the Galil 100 pin cable from the motion card.
There are labels XYZ and W but no power conectors for motors.
John
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Usually the /amp version has power connectors depending on how many drives are included, (up to four).
If there are drives, you should be able to see them under the board.
N.
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re the 2kw servo. is it definately the s encoder and not the ose encoder? i have one here with ose encoder which is 1 million counts/rev, but cant find a drive for it.
i have new 2kw j2s drives and motors here if you want to spend money...lol
beware as well. the bigger drives require 3 phase @ 220 volts (not 380v as we have in the uk) so you either require 3 phase tansformer or a 4series drive for our voltage.
you can run up to 750 watts off single phase ok
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Yes it's an S encoder. Has the blue S sticker on the back. Noticed the Mits MR-J2S-350A 3.5KW will accept single or 3 phase.
John
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no.
the 3.5kw requires 3 phase 220v (not 380v like we have in uk) to produce the output, single phase to run the drive electronics (split into 2 seperate circuits)
they let out a very loud bang if you connect them to 380v... dont ask!
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Yep just checked again, no UK sigle phase! So for the 2KW motor I would have to find a 400v drive to run 3 phase and no way I can run single phase without a converter.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mitsubishi-MR-J2S-350A-MRJ2S350A-AC-Servo-Drive-/120727350270?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1be92bfe
John
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il be honest, ive never tried to run just single phase on the larger units. if i get time il wire up a 2kw j2s today and try it see if it errors or outputs.
i know i read it on some of mitsubishi literature somewhere though.
most of my machines use up to 750watt mitsi, which are fine on single phase.
my big machines ive left with original dc motors and run via galil. this is one of them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqQqNpQkD4c
what are you converting?
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Just looked at the Mits manual for J2S series. It says the single 230v is only available for the 70 drive or smaller..
I'm retroing a Denford Triac with the old steppers on. It's in new condition so though it would make a good single phase project and a good way to get my head round the Mitsubishi drives and motors.
Will check your galil machine out :)
John