Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: ions82 on May 28, 2009, 04:17:15 PM
-
I'm sure there have been a number of these threads in this forum. I did a search, but the results weren't exactly what I needed to send me in the right direction. I have an old Tree Journeyman 330 CNC knee mill that still has the original control. I've never even been able to make any parts as the control seems to be in a constant state of disrepair. The latest battle involves the power supply. Instead of paying someone $800 to troubleshoot and replace $2.00 in parts, I've decided to look into a retrofit.
Anyway, the machine I have is a pretty solid piece of iron. Everything on it is original and in good condition (control notwithstanding). I am wondering if it would be possible to toss the old control and run the machine with Mach3. My main interest is in reliability. I am not worried about super-fast rapids or elaborate 4-axis movements. The parts that I plan to make will be very simple. The idea would be to use the machine to make a little money and eventually upgrade to a VMC.
I am hoping that someone can get me started in the right direction as I look for information about a retrofit. I know virtually nothing about the intricacies of such an undertaking, but I am willing to learn. I do have a few questions that probably have simple answers. The machine has a two-speed geared head. Would I be able to utilize this feature with Mach3? Would I be able to keep the DC servos and drives? How about the spindle drive? Are those usually replaced in such a situation?
Well, I am hoping that I will be able to get this machine up and running. I've pretty much given up hope on the original control. Even when it's running properly, it leaves a LOT to be desired. The machine is fantastic, but the electronics need to be put out to pasture. Thank you for taking time to read my post!
-
If you want to keep the old drives then it is likely they are analogue input (+-10v) so you would need to use something like
DSPMC http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/motion/dspmc.php
Galil http://www.galilmc.com/
K-Motion http://www.dynomotion.com/Kanalog.html
all of these are external controllers that interface to Mach via a plugin and prices start around $500 upwards I think.
There is also
YAPSC. http://max-mod-shop.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47:yapsc10v&catid=17:-yapsc&Itemid=4
This takes step and direction from Mach via the parallel port and converts it to analogue.
I have no experience with any of the above so cant comment.
Depending on your servos voltage and current you may be able to use some of the drives that can accept Step/Dir signals directly, some of them are
Geckos http://www.geckodrive.com/
Tek10 http://cncteknix.com/portal/index.php
Rutex http://www.rutex.com/us/index.php
Viper http://www.viperservo.com/
Gearbox should not be a problem, depends really how it works at the moment.
Spindle drive also will depend how it works, ie is it a VFD or is it a DC Servo or AC Servo etc.
Hood
-
Thank you for the info. Hopefully, I can continue to read through some of the posts and glean some vital information. Is there a better place for newbies such as myself that know virtually nothing about conversions? As I mentioned, I'm willing to learn and actually like to figure out stuff that challenges me. I know that successfully retrofitting this mill certainly be very fulfilling. However, I have the feeling that there is also a large possibility for frustration and disappointment.
Anyway, the machine I've got has Gettys N360 drives and Gould DC servos. I have quite a bit of documentation and schematics for the drives. However, most of it is information that I don't understand (yet). The upside is that, should I be able to use them for a retrofit, I should have any information necessary for wiring them up to new components. There is also some information for the inner workings of the servos, but I'm not sure if there was anything pertaining to encoders.
The spindle drive on the machine is a Fanuc AC drive. I have no idea whether or not it could be wired into a retrofit system. It looks like a pretty substantial piece of equipment. I have schematics that detail how it is tied into the current control. So, like the servo drives, I should have any info necessary to wire it up (should I be able to utilize it).
Well, thanks again for the links to the equipment. I will certainly have to learn more about what I'm doing before I start purchasing equipment. I have the feeling that, once I learn a little more about retrofits, I won't be so intimidated by the process. The current control is a mind-boggling mess of wires that run in every direction. Fortunately, most (but not all) of it is clearly labeled and organized. I only hope that any attempt I make to retrofit will allow this machine to start making chips again. It's a damned nice machine that is very capable of doing quality work. I just need it to run! If anyone can give me some more pointers on where to start learning, please let me know. Thanks!
-
If you attach the docs for the driveS, motors etc maybe we can help a bit more.
Hood
-
The drawings/diagrams/schematics for the drives are all on 8.5x11 sheets of paper, but the others are quite large. So, those probably won't be scanned any time soon. The info that I've read thus far has led me to conclude that I should just dump original servo drives. I have read numerous good things about the Granite drives, but I'm not sure if they will work with my servos (still more reading to do). Since the spindle motor is AC, I guess it would also be wise to think about controlling it with a VFD. I am not trying to keep this machine on the lowest budget possible. It will be helping me to earn a living, so I don't mind investing in it. However, I'm certainly not about to drop $15K on something like a Centroid. It sounds like some learning and determination allow most people to put together a great CNC system.
-
The spindle you say its a Fanuc AC, I was thinking you were meaning an AC Servo, is that the case? Or is it a normal AC induction motor?
As for the drives, if it was me I think I would be looking at the DSPMC, as said I have no experience of them but most I have seen has been good and if your drives are good then it may actually be cheaper than getting new drives, then again thats all things you have to weigh up. I would imagine your servo motors will be 140 to 190v DC, if thats the case then any of the normal drives such as Granite, Gecko etc will reduce your rapids capability as I think they are all around 80v max
Hood
-
The spindle you say its a Fanuc AC, I was thinking you were meaning an AC Servo, is that the case? Or is it a normal AC induction motor?
To be perfectly honest, I'm not even 100% sure. It just said "Fanuc AC Spindle Drive" in the literature that I was reading. The machine has never had rigid tapping capabilities (usually indicates a servo motor at work, right?). It's an old mill (1984). I'll have to take a closer look to see if I can get a definite answer to this question.
As for the DC servos and drives... I will go through the paperwork again and see if I can find some pertinent numbers. Do most older DC servos run at such high voltage? I don't mind if I lose a little rapid speed. This mill doesn't even have a tool changer, so fast rapids are kind of pointless, anyway. Rigidity, reliability, and reasonable accuracy are the only things I would be after.
-
You will soon low if you look at the motor, servos look totally different and AC variety are usually square. An induction motor will look just like any other motor you would see on a saw or a compressor etc. If you can take pics that would help. As for it not being a servo becazuse no rigid tapping then thats not nesecarily the case as it could be the control is not capable of rigid tapping. Mach is not capable normally but it can be done by some trickery.
Usually machines of that vintage will have high volt DC motors or certainly all the ones I have seen have. If your motors are say 160V and you use a drive that can only put out 80v then your rapids will be approx half of what they were before.
Hood
-
THere is another option with using your old drives, take a look at dynomotion motion controller it has analog built in as well AND there is a MACH plugin. I believe it also has function for a servo spindle in case it is. It may be able to handle the resolvers as well(;-)
I would spend the time to call TOM @dynomotion and talk with him about it also.
It really is HARD to make a general statment concerning a specific setup without seeing the specifics first.
Just a thought. (;-) TP
-
Thank you for offering some input into this thread. I would like to start rounding up all the necessary equipment for doing this retrofit. I would like to replace as much as possible, so the old servo drives are sure to go. It would probably be good to replace the spindle drive, as well. However, I am not sure how easy that will be to do. I still need to take a closer look at everything that is there and see what all needs to go. Ideally, I would like to keep all the motors and get rid of all the drives. Although I know very little about retrofits, that seems like it would be the easiest route (if possible).
Anyway, I was hoping to compile a list of the larger components that will be absolutely necessary for this retrofit. The PC and software will be easy. I will need at least three drives (one for each axis) and a "breakout board," correct? Should I just make a decision and just buy some? I am still leaning heavily toward the Granite drives. I don't mind that they cost a bit more than some of the others. For this retrofit, I don't mind spending an extra one or two thousand dollars to make sure it is done right and results in a machine that I can depend on. I have no plans to pinch pennies.
I will try to get more specific information (voltages, motors, etc...) and post again. Thank you for the help thus far. Hopefully, I will be able to find my way and get this machine sorted out. I'm sure this forum will be instrumental in any success I manage to find.
-
Knowing what you have will make it easier to advise what you will need to get, keeping the old drives may or may not be the sensible route, all depends on the drives.
Hood
-
I would not be in a big hurry to trash all the drives unless they just don't work. I refitted an older Bridgeport 308 and left all the drives in place. A Galil card noes nicely to control them.
-
I would not be in a big hurry to trash all the drives unless they just don't work. I refitted an older Bridgeport 308 and left all the drives in place. A Galil card noes nicely to control them.
The reason I figured I would get rid of the drives is because they are so old. I would rather have the reliability of something newer. If I did the retrofit and kept the drives in place, I would be worried that one of them would fail at some point. Are servo drives usually quite reliable? Basically, I just want to end up with a machine that is reliable. Right now, I've got a 4500-pound paperweight. I will get getting all the specifics on the drives later today. Hopefully, it will help figure out what exactly I need to do with this machine.
-
Industrial servo drives tend to be extremely reliable, but like everything they can go wrong. You could always swap out at a later stage if that was the case.
Hood
-
Here is some of the information I've managed to gather from the literature. The maintenance manual for the machine gives a pretty good description of the various components. I'll include any information that seems pertinent (even if I have no clue what it denotes).
Axes servo drives - Gettys N360 SCR They are 3-phase half-wave drives. I have the factory manual for the drives. It includes diagrams and schematics, but some of it is tough to read because an obvious printing error jumbled up some of the text and placed some of it on the schematics.
The axes servo motors are Gettys permanent magnet motors. The tachometer produces 9.5 VDC for every 1000 RPM, and the armature voltage at 1000 RPM is 34.2V +/- 10%.
The encoders are 500-line optical incremental encoders. The literature gives a bunch of specs for them, but I have no idea what most of them mean. For example, the outputs are described as quasi-sinusoid or square wave single channel or dual channels in quadrature. I sure hope I don't have to understand such concepts if I am to be successful with this retrofit!
The spindle uses a size 3 Fanuc AC spindle drive and motor. If I understand correctly, it is a servo-type motor. It is rated at 3.7 kW (5 HP) continuous and 5.5 kW (7.5 HP) for 30 minutes. The base speed is 1500 RPM and the max is 6000. The input command voltage goes between +10V DC (max speed) and 0V (halt). Power supply is 200/220V +10% / -15% at 50/60 Hz +/- 1 Hz. Velocity feedback is provided by a pulse generator. The Fanuc part numbers for the spindle motor and drive are listed, but I assume those are not necessary.
Anyway, I hope that some of this information will be able to help move me in the right direction. As I said, I just assumed that it would be best to replace the servo drives. This is mainly because they are so old (from the early 80s). There is a factory-installed 4th axis on this machine. So, there is a spare drive on hand. The original rapid speed was 200 IPM (with feeds topping out at 100 IPM), so changing out the drives probably wouldn't turn a fast machine into a slow one. If more detailed information is needed, please let me know. The literature I have seems quite detailed, so there is a good chance it will have any info that might help. Thank you to all for taking time to read my posts and help me with this project! I'll be damned if I'm going to end up like these guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3RgyZRgshA
-
These axis drives are I think old style, I was expecting it to have PWM drives, afraid I know nothing about these drives but from what I hear they are relatively eay to repair.
The motors would get you 2000rpm on Geckos but it will depend on what the current is whether Geckos will do, any info on that?
Spindle sounds like it should be good, 0 to 10v is an easy thing to control and there are quite a few boards that will do that.
-
The data chart for the servo motors has quite a bit of information on it. However, I'm not sure how much of it pertains to the current drawn by the motors. The "Continuous Rated RMS at Stall" is shown as being 12.5 amps. From what I've been told, old DC motors aren't the most efficient. Is it a common issue for new drives being unable to support enough current for old servo motors?
-
That should be fine for Geckos, think they are 20Amp if I remember correctly, not sure if thats continuous or peak though.
Older DC Servos tended to be higher volt lower current and more modern ones I think tend to be lower volt higher current, then again I know very little about DC servos as it is AC that I use.
What pitch are the ballscrews and do you have any gearing between motor and ballscrew?
Hood
-
Hm. I'll have the research the ballscrew pitch/size. As chance would have it, that is one thing that isn't specified in the literature I have. I can probably take some crude measurements with a caliper and figure it out. The servo motors are geared down (via belts and pulleys). I imagine this information is rather important when it comes to setting up a retrofit.
-
I've been busy with other projects for a few days, so I haven't been able to stay on top of this. Are ballscrews typically made in even increments? Do I just measure OD of the screw and get an estimate of the pitch? I figured that most screws are fairly even measurements. My only question is whether or not the dimensions of this old machine will be metric or standard. Will I need precise measurements and specs for the retrofit process?
-
You will need to measure the pitch, easy enough to do with some digital calipers, just same idea as measuring TPI of a bolt. Best idea is to measure over a distance of greater than 1 inch. Over 5 tracks (1 inch) the difference between 5mm pitch or 0.2" would only be 0.00319 inches but oviously over 30 (6 inch) it would be 6 times greater so easier to differentiate.
It is likely that they will either be 0.2" or 5mm as that is the norm for machine tools such as lathes or mills.
Hood
-
I am bringing this old post back to life as I am hoping to start making some progress on the retrofit project. Since I last posted, I have removed all of the control components from the mill. The servo motors and spindle motor are still in place (as are the limit switches). I should probably go ahead and start purchasing the necessary components. I am planning to buy some of the new 160V Granite drives. I was also looking at their breakout board. Would it adequately complement the servo drives? My mill has a two-speed geared head and a spindle brake (both controlled through electro-pneumatic relays... I'm not sure if that's the right term for them). Typically, does the breakout board control such things, or would I need another component for the PC to control any other relays?
Also, I was hoping someone might be able to recommend a good VFD for me. My mill has a 7.5 HP (5-6kW?) motor. I'd like to find one that is reliable and fairly easy to use. I have no experiences with VFDs, but it sounds like it shouldn't be too terribly hard to interface with the PC control. If anyone has any recommendations on a breakout board and VFD, please let me know! Thank you for your time.
-
Hi Ions,
Just a note on the Fanuc Model 3 spindle motor...keep the drive for it if you can as it's a servo drive and should give you excellent controll of that motor. Those Fanuc spindle drives are super reliable and have good safety devices inbuilt in them to stop any major damage if something goes wrong. The drive will do orientation for tapping and tool changing.
I have two machines with the Fanuc model 3 motor on and they will tap holes no problem with a tension compression tap holder.
Is the drive an A06B-6044-H07 ..?
http://www.dnc-electronics.co.uk/fanuc-drives/6044_fanuc_spindle_drives.htm
The Fanuc stuff might be old but it's damn good quality!! :)
By the way there is a nice 8 axis Galil motion card on ebay at the moment that would control your servos and drives..would also control your spindle drive too! It will do analogue 10V or torque mode or even steppers...
The Galil section has all the info!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230366526511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching
John.
-
Just a note on the Fanuc Model 3 spindle motor...keep the drive for it if you can as it's a servo drive and should give you excellent controll of that motor. Those Fanuc spindle drives are super reliable and have good safety devices inbuilt in them to stop any major damage if something goes wrong. The drive will do orientation for tapping and tool changing.
I have two machines with the Fanuc model 3 motor on and they will tap holes no problem with a tension compression tap holder.
Is the drive an A06B-6044-H07 ..?
http://www.dnc-electronics.co.uk/fanuc-drives/6044_fanuc_spindle_drives.htm
The Fanuc stuff might be old but it's damn good quality!! :)
By the way there is a nice 8 axis Galil motion card on ebay at the moment that would control your servos and drives..would also control your spindle drive too! It will do analogue 10V or torque mode or even steppers...
The Galil section has all the info!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230366526511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching
Thank you for the info, John! I do still have the spindle drive. Unfortunately, I chopped the wires from the bottom of it. However, I kept all the plugs that went to/from it. I assume that it would have to be configured differently, anyway, so it may be of no consequence. It is an A06B-6044-H007. To me, it just looks like a complicated mess of electrical components. It appears that the going rate for these things on fleaBay is around $2500. I never would've guessed an old spindle drive would be so valuable. Would the performance and reliability be much/any better than a VFD? I'm no expert when it comes to electrics and electronics. The VFD just sounded like it would be a fairly simple solution to spindle control. However, if the Fanuc drive would be just as reliable (and not too much trouble), I might just go with that. Would the spindle control or the breakout board control of the spindle break and geared head?
As for the Galil unit... It seems a little bit complicated. I'm not sure, but I get the impression that it has a LOT of features that I will never need (or even know how to use). For me, simplicity and reliability are going to be key to getting this retrofit done. I assumed that the Granite unit would be best for the Granite drives. However, I could very easily be missing some very important understanding of these components (which may be obvious from reading my posts). Thanks again for the valuable input!
-
No problem just glad to help.. :)
The spindle drive will run as is if attached to something like the Galil board..there are other versions available with less axis but the one on Ebay is well priced. Plus if you want to add a 4th axis indexer at a later date you will still have axis left to play with.
You could add an encoder to the spindle motor and wire this to the Galil board to get position feedback from the motor for tapping cycles.
Best to wire everything back to the spindle drive as it was then wire the analogue 10v control signal from a Galil board to the drive.
Don't forget that drive should still be tuned into that motor so it would save you setting the motor up again!
As far as I know the VFD will not work as precisely as the Fanuc unit but I'm no expert on these...my philosophy is to use the drive that was built for the motor being as it is of high quality..the VFD would normally be a cheaper alternative to the full servo spindle drive you have now.
Also you can buy expensive motors and control them from a low end motion card but you will get better results from using your old servos with a high end card like the Galil.
Mach puts out step and direction from the printer port, the idea with the galil is it gives you much more control over the analogue drives and because it runs from a pci slot on your pc motherboard you can get up to 12mhz pulse rate..far faster than the pulse rate from the printer port so faster rapids and smoother motion can be achieved from older analogue drives.
http://www.galilmc.com/products/dmc-18x0.php
John.
-
Thank you for the additional info, John! Also, thank you for taking the time to put things into layman's terms. I'm not the most technically-adept fellow, so it is very helpful when someone explains all this stuff in a manner that I can actually understand (for the most part).
So, I am curious about the Galil cards and how they compare to a "breakout board" setup that seems to be the standard for most CNC retrofits. Does the Galil only provide advantages when using older analog servo drives? I was planning on buying some of the new Granite drives. From what I've read, digital drives are quite a bit more reliable and easier to set up than older analog drives. I still have all the drives from the original control. From what I gather, a Galil card would allow me to keep the original drives, but I would have to buy some additional (and fairly costly) equipment. The work I plan to do with this CNC machine is fairly simple (no large-scale production and no sub-.001 tolerances). However, there may be some 3D movements involved.
Anyway, the two things that are most important to me with this retrofit are simplicity and reliability. I don't mind having to go a little slower to get the job done, so maximum speed and performance isn't at the top of the priority list. As I've mentioned a few times, I'm not too familiar with the intricacies of setting up and dialing in electronic equipment. I just want to make sure that I know what I should be looking at before I plunk down any money on the necessary parts for the retrofit. Thanks again for the additional information. It will give me something to think about as I shop around this week.
-
No problem I'm no expert but just speaking from experience!
The step and direction signal Mach puts out is really for controlling steppers but some "intelligent" digital drives will accept this signal too but with a Galil card the benefit is you can run any type of drive and motor..so if you decided to stick with your old drives to save on cost you would still get good performance well fast enough for the type of machine you have.
Just a point on the old drives..set up won't be an issue as they are already tuned to the motors..nothing against the Granite drives though as they should be easy to set up too.
With the Galil you would need the break out board they supply (ICM 2900 I think) to wire your encoders into and the analogue command signals too.
Other break out boards that you have seen for Mach 3 do the same thing and also have connections for i/o such as controlling solenoids and rotary feed switches etc.
John.
-
Hi Ions82. How far have you got with your investigations?
I am in the process of retrofitting an Extron mill and I went for a Dynomotion Kanalog/Kflop board after a lot of investigation.
The machine is twelve years old and most advice was to ditch the old Panasonic servos and drives and fit new ones. That was outside my budget.
I got in touch with Tom Kerekes and he advised me that if I could get servo movement by putting a standard 1.5v battery voltage across a couple of pins on the servo driver input then we should be able to get the machine working with his board and Mach3.
And he was right. I got movement with the battery and tons of help from TK.
We removed all the old computer hardware and have a standard PC, running Mach3, and the KMotion software that comes with the board and is used for setting up the system to interface with Mach3.
I have the machine at the stage of tuning the motors and I am still in information overload mode, but we're getting there and Tom's help has been fantastic.
There have been a few misunderstandings with terminology, as you have to cope with engineering, coding, computer and just plain English terms, and Tom has always been patient with me and worked through it :).
-
How is this project goinig? I recently got a 330 too and want to refit it to a Mach3 control system. I would love any advice you have or lessons learned you would like to share. Thanks for any help.
Chris
-
ions82,
Please contact us shop@kieh.org we are just starting a 330 rebuild. Ask for Frank, Eric, or Christ.
I have read that other people are hoping to stand on ions82 shoulders during their rebuilds. Feel free to contact us too.
Shop