Machsupport Forum
General CNC Chat => Show"N"Tell ( Your Machines) => Topic started by: racear2865 on January 02, 2009, 10:37:02 AM
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I have a Chevalier Falcon 1995 model with a Dynapath Delta 40M controller. It has DC baldor servos-brush type> Therefore, I'm sure all is analog. It does not have a VFD but I will install one and I want to install a 4th axis at a later date. Big dreams, big mouth(according to the lady of the house) and littke pocket book and even smaller knowledge. I thought at 60+ years that I didnt want to learn more, BUT. I have seen Hood and Poppa Bear and numerous others commenting on a project such as this. Every thing on this machine works and works flawlessly except programming is a bitch(French and my ex wife). I would love to reuse the servos and drive cards and what ever else. I know some of this but my knowledge is very limited. I thought being a engineer would help but being retired for 6 years has left many voids(CRS). Void my arse, some of it I never ever knew. People, I would love to do a project of this magnitude, but I can only afford to do once(broke after Christmas and 7 grandsons and 4 great grandsons). Aint got no ballgames until spring. Can yall help.
racear
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First thing to do is find out the type of servo drives it has. As you say it is most likely analogue but there is a slim chance they may do Step/Dir or Quadrature. If they are purely analogue then your choices are limited but seems to be good reports coming through regarding the DSPMC from vitalsystems so that would be one route you could take.
Even if the drives can accept Step Dir then you will need to know what the encoders line count is, it may be too high for the parallel port but you could always get a smoothstepper if that was the case.
Hood
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Hood
I thank you very much for your inquiry. The servos are Baldor #MTE-4070-BLBCE. They are 28 lb-in at 2500rpm @100to 150vdc. Has encoder @1000count
I hope this helps.
racear
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Hood
Here is tech sheet on the servo
http://www.baldor.com/products/servomotors/dc_servomotor/dc_servo_spec.asp?Catalognumber=MTE-4070-BLBCE.
again thanks
racear
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Do you have the servo drive specs?
Hood
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Thanks again Hood
I hope or think the link I posted above is the specs on the drive from Baldor. The drives are still available. Thanks
racear
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The link seems to be just for the motor, I can get to the drives from that link but dont know the model of drive you have so dont know what to look at :(
Hood
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Hood
I'm sorry I just understood what you asked for. I will look and post back.
racear
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Hood
Pulled drive card and it is Servo Dynamics model # SDFPO1525-17 serial # 123574 description FET Off Line Module They are out of Chatworth, Ca 91311. I hope this is what you need.
thanks man
ravear
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Looked at their site and cant find any info on that. With you saying its a card then I would suspect its an analogue amplifier so you only have a few options if you want to keep them. One is to try some of the Analogue to Step/Dir converter cards, dont have any experience of them and the reports of them are thin on the ground.
Another option would be the DSPMC motion controller, have seen a few recent reports and they are all great. Problem is its around $800 I think.
You could also get the likes of Gecko G320'S or CNC Teknix Tek10's to replace your drives. You would lose speed though as the max voltage they can handle is 80v. With your figures above that would mean your motor speed would be limmited to around 1,300 RPM.
Personally I would go the DSPMC route as it would allow your full speed and also no problems with the highish count on the encoder. If you went one of the other routes then your max speed with 1000 count encoders would be limited through the parallel port, at 45KHz you would get a max of 675RPM, so you would need to go for a 100KHz kernel speed to get the 1,300 rpm the geckos/teknix would allow. Whether you can get 100KHz from your port is highly dependant on the computer.
You could of course go the SmoothStepper route with Geckos or Tek10s. The SmoothStepper does the pulsing externally from the computer and has a max of 4MHz, I use the SmoothStepper on all my machines :)
Hood
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Hood
Pulled drive card and it is Servo Dynamics model # SDFPO1525-17 serial # 123574 description FET Off Line Module They are out of Chatworth, Ca 91311. I hope this is what you need.
thanks man
ravear
I have those drives in my mill and I scanned their manual into PDF format. Send me your email address and I can email it to you, the file size is 1.1 meg. They are analog drives that take +-10V for signal input, differential or single ended encoder and tach. I am using a Pixie card to convert step and direction to +-10V, unfortunately, the Pixie is not longer made. My motors are also very similar to yours and I can get 450 IPM rapids from my set up. BTW, the telephone tech support from Servo Dynamics is good. They still sell a similar drive, but now the power supply is built into each drive. The 1525 drives take a power supply/rack.
Vince
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Nice info Vince :) I wouldnt mind that pdf myself, dont have these drives but you never know what the future holds ;)
If you dont mind please send to hood at rdengineering.wanadoo.co.uk
Hood
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Nice info Vince :) I wouldnt mind that pdf myself, dont have these drives but you never know what the future holds ;)
If you dont mind please send to hood at rdengineering.wanadoo.co.uk
Hood
I sent it to rdengineering (at) wandoo (dot) co (dot) uk. Is that correct? I guess I'll know in a couple of minutes if it bounces.
Vince
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nope sorry its
hood ( at) rdengineering ( dot) wanadoo (dot) co (dot) uk
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Hello Vince
Just got to sign back in this morning.
If you dont mind since the file to reedgrant@bellsouth.net
I appreciate that so much. Will be a tremedous help.
Again thanks
racear
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Vince or Hood Or
If the Pixie card is no longer made, do you all know of something else that will work.
racear
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Rutex do one, dont know of anyone who has tried one though. CNC Teknix were reportedly going to be making some but not seen any info on their website. The Tek10 servos drives top board supposedly can do it and I have actually semi tried it but abandoned my trials when my AB drives came along. When I say I semi tried what I mean was I had an encoder hooked up to the encoder inputs of the top board from a Tek10 and measured the voltage as I rotated the encoder one way or the other and it seemed to act as it should but how good it would have been connected to a drive I cant say. I have a couple of the top boards here and I may use them in the future but if you pay for the shipping to the USA I could loan one to you to see if it will work, PM me if you want to try.
Hood
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Vince or Hood Or
If the Pixie card is no longer made, do you all know of something else that will work.
racear
I replied to this earlier, I don't know why it did not post. No one that I know of makes a board like the Pixie. I sent an email to Arturo (CNC4PC) earlier today asking it he ever thought of making the Pixie board under license from Skyko. He replied that he had sent them an email several times asking just that, but never got a reply. He did say that they were going to develop their own board to convert step and direction to +-10V and it would come out before the end of the year.
Vince
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thanks N4NV
I've been searching for that kind of board, but also no luck. Must be one out there somewhere.
racear
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see my post above.
Hood
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I could also use a copy of the SD manual. I have a set of these drives in a Marvin Mill.
ashburn(at)icx(dot)net
Thanks in advance,
Darek
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Hood
I appreciate all your help. I think I got myself cOnfused. I researched all of those sites especially Teknix and Rutex. Did I miss something, It looked like all they would handle is 80 VDC. I know I can use this but not at full speed. If I dont find something at 100VDC, then that will be the way to go and I probably will wont to try your board(thanks for permitting me to try it). My question that I still dont UNDERSTAND. Can I use my driver boards and Baldor servo with the 1000 count encoder. I am far from your knowledge of this type retrofit, but my drive to learn is burning and I dont want to get hasty and jump when I should be walking (well at my age crawling). You all's knowledge is far superior to mine and I am trying to take each input and put it together, so please don misunderstand my not understanding everything offered. This is what makes this and other forumn unbelivably nice to read. People want to help. I hope one day you people that have helped me will enter into my area of expertise and I can return that favor and help you. Do you all need information on how to build race car engines? I can help you on that. Or I can help you build golf clubs or I can help you build PC's but I gots to learn from you all on this data as I am finding my lack of knowledge is a humbling experience. The lady of the house already said I was a dumb s--t and now I'm beginning to believe she is correct. Yall got to help me show her up. HeHeHe.
thanks yun zees
racear
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racear
First off you just have to look through my lathe thread to see how much I knew about servo motors a year or so ago, absolutely nothing. Still dont know a great deal but like you I like to learn :)
Ok think the best thing is to describe firstly how your present system works. This is a bit oversimplified but it will suffice, your control (computer) sends out a voltage to your servodrives which in turn send out voltage to your motors to make them turn. Your control has feedback from the encoders so it knows where the motors are and so can control the voltage to get the motors to the position it wants to get them to.
Now Mach works differently, it sends out pulses to the drives which will determine how far the drive will tell the motor to go and also at what speed.
So as you can see what you need to make Mach work with your Drives/motors is a device that will accept Step/Dir pulses and convert them to a suitable voltage to send to your drives so that the drives make the motors move. This board also has to accept the feedback from your motors so that it knows your motors got to where they are supposed to be, if not then they will fault out and tell Mach.
I have a had a look at Rutex site and cant find any mention of their converters so looks like they dont sell them any more, in fact I dont know if they ever have, I know they did have them on their site a while back as I saw mention of them but maybe they have never actually had any and were just planning on making them.
As for CNCTeknix, they reportedly were planning on making dedicated converters but again there is no mention on their site but it may be worth an email to them to see if they still have plans to make them.
As mentioned I have the top boards from their Tek10 servo drives, the top boards are the brain part of the drives and as said previously they are supposed to be able to take Step/Dir and turn it into a +- 10v signal and my initial tests seemed to verify that they did that.
Ok next thing is the encoders, you have 1000 counts per rev, now that means it is 4000 pulses per rev as far as Mach is concerned so say for instance your motors need to turn 5 times to move your table 1 inch, that means mach needs to send 20,000 pulses out. If you use the parallel port you should be able to get 45KHz kernel speed, maybe more but I will calculate on that figure. So 45KHz means Mach can send out 45,000 pulses per second (per axis) so 45,000/20,000= 2.25 inches per second max speed which is obviously 2.25 x 60 = 135IPM which will be the max speed you could achieve. If you could get a faster kernel speed reliably then obviously you will get faster rapid speeds (up to the max of your motor capabilities) but whether you will get these kernel speeds will depend on your individual computer.
Ok so say you can only get 45KHz kernel speed from your computer but your motors are capable of going faster and you want faster you would need to get other encoders with a lower count so that the amount of pulses required to move 1 inch is less and thus the 45KHz pulse frequency will move your motors faster. For instance if you got encoders with 500 counts then that would double your rapid speed as it would mean only 10,000 pulses were needed to move 1 inch. This obviously affects your resolution as with 1000 count encoders and 5 turns per inch your theoretical resolution would be 1/20,000= 0.00005 inches but a 500 count encoder would just mean 1/10,000 = 0.0001 which is still pretty good I suppose.
Another option is to use a SmoothStepper motion controller, it takes the place of the parallel port and talks to Mach over USB and is capable of a 4MHz puls rate so no problems there with not being able to get your motors to their max speed :) I have SmoothSteppers on all my machines so can highly recommend them.
Ok so how to proceed, best option I would say is the DSPMC as it would take the info from Mach and then send the info to your servo drives to control your motors, problem is its also not the cheapest option.
Next best I think would be if you could get a converter board so Mach sends the signals to it and the board then sends the required voltage to your drives to move your motors.
If you cant get that then the next option would be to replace the drives with something like the Geckos or the Tek10's but as has been said then you would lose speed as they are not capable of the voltage that your motors can use. Rutex do higher voltage/current drives than the others but there have been a lot of bad reports as well as good reports and as I have never tried them I cant say whether they are the way to go or not.
If there is anything you are unclear about just shout, if I know the answer I will do my best to explain or I am sure others will jump in and do so.
Hood
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Hood
You just made it so simple that even I can understand it. I already have the Smoothstepper and Pokeys. And I was looking at the drive board pdf from Vince and I was trying to see if I could get step and direction and if it was digital or analog and then 3 of the Grand Kids came over and wanted to play pool. So that shot the rest of the nite. Will look at that file again tonight.
thanks
racear
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Not looked at the pdf properly yet but afraid I think the drives you have are purely analogue :(
Hood
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Ok just had another squint at it and its definitely just analogue input however an interesting thing is the max and also continuous voltage, its 100V and 92v respectively. That to me would suggest that your machine is probably only running the motors at 90V so the 10 or so drop to Geckos or Teknix drives may not be as large a drop as we thought :)
Hood
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Hood,
Could you send me a copy of that PDF?
Darek
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yep, no probs, its on its way :) Dont think Vince will mind but if he does then afraid its too late ;D
Hood
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Hey Yall
I just had another guy call me to get a copy of the pdf file. He has a machine with these same drives and wants to do the same thing with Mach. I told him how to sign and join here. I hope Vince you dont mind us sending this drive pdf file. I again looked at the drive and it does appear to be analog (I think). Is there no ways to convert the signal from digital to analog or am I just better off to bite that bullet and go with other drives and move on. Since the spindle is just variable speed, this would be the time to go VFD also. Heck I really must want to learn. Hood, my head want hold no more. Yo dis is fun.
racear
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I could also use a copy of the SD manual. I have a set of these drives in a Marvin Mill.
ashburn(at)icx(dot)net
Thanks in advance,
Darek
You guys get too much done while I am at work. I sent the PDF to you Darek just now if you had not already received it. Feel free to pass it around, it is not copy written.
I have done 5 CNC conversions, 3 with servos. Up to now only DC brushed servos. Two have been with Gecko 320's, the 3rd with the Servo Dynamics drives driven from a Pixie board. Even though the SD drives are old and analog only, they really rock compared to the Gecko drives. Much higher speeds and faster acceleration. After reading some of the stuff Hood has posted, 3 phase AC drives look much more doable. I did one conversion with steppers on a Taig lathe and they really suck compared to servos. Mariss at Gecko has no interest in larger amperage drives or anything higher than 80V. That really limits the CNC conversion/retrofits for Geckos to smaller machines. Some of the larger machines are actually cheaper to buy as the market is so much smaller for them.
Hood, sorry to hijack your thread.
Vince
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Only way is with one of the boards previously mentioned but how good they are at it or how easy to get them (if at all) I dont know. I would email CNC Teknix and ask if they have anything that would do. Better to keep the original drives if you can but if not it looks like the Geckos or Tek10's may not be such a drop down in performance that we first thought. I know the Geckos are excellent stepper drives but have heard their servo drives are not in the same class but they are still good. The Tek10s are more expensive but they do have more features.
Hood
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Hood, sorry to hijack your thread.
Vince
Thats what its there for :)
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http://www.rutex.com/us/index.php?categoryID=79
Rutex is showing a R2040 +/-10v converter at the bottom of the page. I have not used one of these.
Darek
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Well I looked at that page a dozen times and never saw that LOL, must be going blind in my old age :D
Hood
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Heck Hood I've looked at it 4 times since you posted that they may have something and I overlooked it every time. That means I must be older than you. Now that I know that, I'm really pissed that your younger than me and have that much knowledge. Did you by chance look the specs over on that board and care to venture an opinion. I dont know enough to venture an opinion and the lady already said I had shown my stupidity enough and for me to shut up and eat supper.
racear
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ha ha ha
Well it certainly looks like it would do the job, just strange that there doesnt seem to be anyone reporting using them. Maybe I will join the yahoo group for Rutex and see if there is any info or feedback there.
Hood
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I joined the Rutex yahoo group so I could download the manual for the 2040 analog output card. I have the PDF now if anyone is interested.
Vince
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I'd like to look over it Vince.
Thanks,
Brett
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I'd like to look over it Vince.
Thanks,
Brett
I don't think I have your email address. Either post it here is send it to vince (at) flyingcirtters (dot) com
Vince
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Is that the same manual that is on the Rutex site? The one there covers all of the 20*0 series.
Hood
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Is that the same manual that is on the Rutex site? The one there covers all of the 20*0 series.
Hood
Yes, that's the one.
Vince
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Ok, just thought I was missing out LOL
I too have joined the Rutex site and initial searches dont show anyone using the R2040. Tom the USA Rutex guy interesting has said he tested them out, the interesting bit is it was with ServoDynamics 1525 drives which may be similar to the ones you guys have.
Hood
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Geez
You guys, I never should have gone to bed. I missed out on more stuff. Did the guy from Rutex elaborate on how well the card worked with the Dynamics card. Me want to try pretty quick. Did he say if it worked with SmoothStepper and what else??
racear
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This is all he said
Doubt if he has tried with a SmoothStepper but there is no reason for it not to work if it works with a poarallel port as the SS just puts out Step/Dir as the PP would, just cleaner and capable of a lot faster.
Hood
"Rutex now has the R2040 analog drives in stock both in Australia and
here in the USA. This drive allows Step and direction controllers to
drive the older +-10 volt input signal analog drives. I tested it
with a Servo Dynamics 1525 Dyna drive (configured in the current
mode) and it worked very well. This drive allows step and direction
controls to drive very large drive/motor systems."
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OK: Spent quite a bit of time on phone with Rutex today (Tom Uldrige). Here is what we will need to run Mach 3, which he has successfully done..
1: 1 piece per axis of R2040 servo drives
2: 1 piece Motherboard R2110P
3: 1 Piece R2211 adapter if you have a differential encoder or 1 piece R2210 if it is not a differential
You will need a 24 volt source to run this system. Mine has that now.
You will need to use shielded Cat5 cable and a shielded parallel cable. Your PC parallel port must be 5 volts. Some have 3.7; so measure
He did his testing with the card 1525BR. I am going thru the book and website to see if my 1525-17 will work. I think it will. Will be talking to Sevo Dynamics tomorrow to get more info.
all me know
racear
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Not sure what all that will cost but it may be getting near the cost of the DSPMC so maybe you should consider that as well.
Hood
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Just looked and it will come out to around $400 so its still cheaper with that and a SS as opposed to the DSPMC.
Hood
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Yes less expensive but one thing that comes to mind is homing to the encoder index pulse.
Darek
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Yes thats true Darek but racear has the SS already and Greg has said he is going to add that featre to the SS at some point. I dont need it for any of the machines I have at the moment as the drives I have are capable of doing a gated Index pulse homing but I do have a few drives for spares tha dont have the Indexing capability so will be nice when he gets time to add it :)
Hood
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Please forgive this stupidity getting ready to come out. What is the index pulse??
Ok, want to pose a question, at this present time for a analogue system of this sort, it appears this Rutex may appear to be the best avenue(value to do the job). I'm looking to see if and for how long I can take my machine out of service, is any one else looking at taking a system To Mack3. Also does any one want to try to go together with me and try to purchase larger quantity and see if I can get the price down? Not a problem if any one doesnt as I fell I must do this ssoner or later and I feel we have a good contact to work with in Tom at Rutex. If any one interested let me know and I will pursue. I may not be the best for this project but, got to start somewhere. This also brings up another point, we may need to lean on the people that has the knowledge to help. Even though I am a Mechanical engineer, elctrical back ground leaves a lot to be desired. At present reading, note taking every nite now. Any and all suggestions will I be happy to listen to:
racear
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The Index pulse is a single pulse per revolution from the encoder, it allows very precise homing. The drives I have can do all sorts of homing moves one of which is it will look for the index pulse only, this is useful for a toolchanger or a spindle for example. It is not much use for an axis however as the index is seen once per revolution. Another way which is perfect for homing is you connect a switch into the drive, it will seek the switch and then it will look for the index pulse.
I have heard great things about Tom from Rutex USA, but quite a bit not so good about Rutex. If however you look on the general forum you will see that Chip uses the predecessor to the board you are looking at and he says it works well.
Hood
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Hood
Is this Rutex worth pursuing or am I just better off looking another way.
racear
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It seems like it would be a reasonable way but without seeing others results it seems you will be one of the first to try it. As Chip says the previous incarnation works fine then there is no reason to think this wouldnt.
Hood
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The quite a bit bad has been about the servo drives rather than anything else. Seem to remember if you had a crash with the Rutex servo drives then you could blow them up but maybe I am not remembering correctly.
Hood
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Hood. I have raced cars over 3/4 of my life. There AINT nothing I AINT blewed up before so this will not be anything new. I just got to see if I can free the machine up long enough to tackle this. I use it quite often in my ever day work. For the money, it has been a good investment. Just time to kick it up.
racear
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Yes know the feeling, I have had the big servo sitting in my workshop for 3 or more months unable to get the time to fit to the lathe, managed to get it done over Christmas/New Year but still have a lot of tidying of the wiring to do.
Hood
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ok bad update. Looking for you alls opinion
Last nite had machine sitting and heard all relays unlatch and saw screen go off. Have voltage going in and nothing happening from there. Saw no leds on the PC. Removed pc power supply. Is a Deltron 11589xa. Have input 110ac but no outputs at +5volts, +12volts, -12volts, &24volts. So my suspects are bad power supply. Have disassembled and see no damage. Found one repaired at PCP for $311. Question, what would you all do. repair this of go ahead and spend under$500 and update to Mach3. Largest issue is I do not know if I can do time. Working 12 hrs day or more now. And is I got Mach way, will have many questions to be asked as I go along. I wished I could just repair the power supply, but out of my skills. I'm also hoping I didnt damage something else in machine. I'll take criticism or help
racear
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You want the model GLM75P from Condor (Condor was purchased by SL Power Electronics). You can buy it online several places including DigiKey:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=271-2544-ND
Allied:
http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?SKU=7443355&MPN=GLM75P&R=7443355&SEARCH=7443355&DESC=GLM75P
They sell for a little under $100. Power supply technology has changed so much in the last 15 years that they are much cheaper and smaller than before. On my mill, the company that made my power supply wanted over $500 for a replacement. The Condor GLM75 works fine. If your on the East side of the pond do a google search for Condor GLM75P.
If you do get the Condor power supply note that they require a minimum load of 1A on the 5V output to properly regulate.
Vince
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Vince
Thanks for the lead. I will immediatrely look into it. This again is why this forumn is so important to people such as I(just smart enough to get my self in trouble). I wish I knew what caused all this. On the Deltron there is two leads coming out called R and 5R. Anyone got any idea what this would go to. Man wouldn't a schematic be great?? When I came in last nite, the lady of the house(boss) to one look and siad "you want a beer" and I told give me the whole freaking case. Now dis morning, me got two head aches; the machine and mine.
thanks people and thank you Vince
racear
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Just a guess on the R and 5R. I know the DynaPath 20's power supply has one terminal on it thats keeps the CPU from starting untill the voltages are stabilized. The 40 is PC based, PC's had a PG (power good) terminal on there supplies that does the same thing.
Darek
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Hillbilly
Good point, I will try that. Update. Sent the power supply to Process Control Outlet for repair. When I dismantled it I found that the prvious owner had lost the power supply also and sent it to them. Upon calling them, they said return it has it had less than 3 hours run time on it from repair. They said they would look at at no cost. I will also purchase the Condor. But I also am making the plans to go forward with retrofit kit just in case as this is where I want to go anyway. If I have to spend more than the $100 for power supply and that doesnt repair it , in I go. So I am asking you people to help me make entire list of parts and software I will need to make entire project go to Mach with a beginning to end sequence. I will appreciate any and all help. I know you all have been there before and have learned from your expieriences, godd and bad, so please help me to get this as proper as I can as I need this machine for my work. I am trying to line up borrowing another mill now to tide me over.
thnaks frnew friends
racear
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racear
Think you already have a SS and you know what you need regarding the Step/Dir to Analogue convertor so the other things you will need are probably some form of breakout board and some means of turning 5V into 24v and 24v to 5v. Well I am presuming your drive I/O will be 24V? Relays can do that easily abd fairly cheaply. A PLC can also do it over ModBUS but that will be more expensive.
As for software then really only Mach and Windows 2000, XP or in my opinion as a very last resort Vista, but I know some strange people actually like Vista ;D
Hood
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Yes, you are correct. I purchased a 24v regulated power supply yesterday for $5. Explain to me about the breakout board. I am in the process of builoding a PC with XP to be on it. Hope to finish it this week end. Hope I can go touch screen(depends on $) Allready got license for Mach. No wonder you guys like this stuff. It is almost like me building my race engines and firing it on my dynomometer for the first time. When it roars to life, I still get gooses bumps even after 48 years of doing it. Lady of the house said I was having too much fun. Since this is anlogue, do I need to worry about noise more than usual??
Oops here she comes, got to sign off.
thanks youall
racear
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A breakout board in is simplest form is just a means to wire things up, it consists of a board that the parallel port cable plugs into and has terminals so you can connect your motor wires, limit wires etc. Usually however people buy isolated boards which can also have other functions such as relays on them, the big benefit to people with a parallel port is that these breakouts can usually accept the 3.3v signal that the modern ports put out and then send out a true 5v for the isolated I/O. With having the smooth stepper that wont be an issue for you but it is probably still best to use a breakout (or two) as the SS isnt (from what I understand) capable of supplying enough current to work relays etc.
As for touch screens, I wouldnt be without one, both mills and the lathe have them. I bought normal TFT screens and just put the overlay panels inside their cases to turn them into touch screens. There are quite a few different sellers on eBay that sell these overlays.
Hood
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Hood
thanks on the breakout board.
And I found the overlay touch screens. Thanks that will let me use the LCD that I have. That helps on the budget.
racear