Machsupport Forum

Third party software and hardware support forums. => dspMC/IP Motion Controller => Topic started by: ART on November 03, 2007, 08:36:44 AM

Title: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: ART on November 03, 2007, 08:36:44 AM
Hi everyone:

  This board is for information fo the VitalSystems dspMC/IP motion controller. Its the place you can contact the designers and discuss any questions or issues
with this hardware.

Art
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: small_rcer on April 08, 2008, 07:20:07 PM
Good day:

When using the dspMC/IP board do you have a separate network card dedicated to the Vital System interface?

I am concerned with an ethernet connected controller, either the dspMC/IP or the Galil or the Dynomotion brand, that network traffic would possibly slow down the network at a critical time when  cutting something.  Having one NIC going to the company network and one dedicated with a x-over cable to the dspMC/Ip would possibly help this.  However 2 NICs in a PC might affect the availability of Interrupts for Mach's use.

Do you have encoders on the leadscrews or ballscrews?  On the servo motors?

Which encoder do you use for position information, the motor or the ballscrew encoder?

Are you using it with a lathe or a mill?

I see a big price range between the dspMC/IP, the Dynomotion and the Galil cards.  The choice probably boils down to who has written and documented the best software to make them work with Mach.  With that said, what have people found with the software and the documentation?  Which has the best docs?  The best software?

Thanks for your interest.

Jim H

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on April 19, 2008, 01:21:53 AM
hello Jim,

separate network card is not required.  if you will be accessing internet or other lan computers quite often, then it will be more reliable to have a dedicated ethernet connection. 

currently, one encoder is used per axis. should be mounted where the actual motion is being measured for feedback.

mill software is almost complete.  lathe needs some addition in mach so it can support threading and tapping via plugin.  working with Art and Brian on this issue.

we have the best price I beleive.  features are added and documentation is also being updated as we get feedback from our customers.

regards,
Anton B.
Vital Systems



Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on May 15, 2008, 09:00:37 PM
I'm interested in this control.  I'll actually pick up the phone tomorrow.  I noticed the encoder inputs have a+- b+- z+-  is the z+- for index?  I very definitely want to home to an index.

I was just installing a galil control, a used dmc-2160 with a new amp-19540 on my ex-cell-o spindle wizard and the the control is reporting as a dmc-2120 instead of a dmc-2160 despite reporting the correct serial number for the dmc-2160.  Even though I purchased a new amplifier, cables and the shebang to go with the used control and would have been happy to send the control in for repair if it needed it Galil told me that they would not support 2nd hand units and tech support would not take my calls.  The manager of the tech department actually skoffed at me and told me if I bought a new dmc-2260 he'd shower me with support.  Needless to say I'm not interested in doing business with them anymore.

Does probing work with this control?
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on May 15, 2008, 10:02:15 PM
Z+/Z- is the differential index signals.  we are currently working on threading and rigid tapping.  probing will be next in the queue of features to add. 

PID tuning turns out to be not too difficult.  start from low values of kp, kd and ki, and gradually increase untill you see little oscillations.  put a limit on the max integral error to remove oscillation.   you want high Kp, but not too high that oscillations get out of control (following error trip will disarm the axis if that happens).


Anton B.
VSI
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Tomas on May 15, 2008, 10:06:16 PM
What do you enter for scale? and where do you get this value?

tomas
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on May 16, 2008, 12:51:27 AM
index pulse will be soon added for homing. right now it only looks at the home sensor.  the hardware support is there, need to add the logic in the code.

pid scale:
in the servo loop, pid calculation result is first divided by the scale before applying to the DACs.  lets take an example.  assuming you want Kp 100, Kd .01, and Ki .05.  multiply all by 100, which will make Kd = 10000, Kd  = 1, and Ki = 5, and therfore scale will be 100.  hope this helps.

best regards,

Anton B.
www.vitalsystem.com

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Tomas on May 16, 2008, 12:56:14 AM
Thanks,

  What about input gain?  Are there any docs on this stuff?

Tomas
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on May 16, 2008, 02:01:43 PM
Anton, great,  do we have a guestimate on when homing to the index pulse and probing will be functional?
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on May 16, 2008, 02:26:26 PM
My 2 cents on the documentation:  I found the existing documentation clear, well organized, and very user friendly.  In comparison to the Galil documentation I have been dealing with of late it is 1000x better.  I think the questions being asked are because some of the parameters for motion control setup were just mentioned and not explained in the "testing installation" section, pages 18-22.  As that information is filled out a bit more I would suggest keeping it in the straight forward simple walk through style of the rest of the user manual.  If you were sit down and set up a control and go through a routine like set the scale, set p to some guestimate, set d to 1/4 of p, set I to 0, test and keep moving p and d up until you get oscillations, move p and d down a guestimate amount, set I up some amount, and I'm not saying that's the actual routine but whatever routine you would use...just give us the walk through nice and short and clean like the rest of the document.  If the same person who wrote the current user manual did that I think you'd have a 40 page user manual that blows away anything else out there.


Thanks,

 What about input gain? Are there any docs on this stuff?

Tomas
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on May 17, 2008, 02:08:21 AM
usfwalden

thanks for the suggestions and your appreciation for the document.  my experiance is that wiriting a user manual is much more difficult than coding and debugging.  takes lot of mind energy!

we are going to update the manual with more info on the xml pid settings. and hopefully will also add some basic steps for tunning the axis.

I will post a note as soon as we upload the latest manual on our website.

regards

Rufi
www.vitalsystem.com
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: yahuie on May 26, 2008, 03:41:05 PM
I am going to be doing a retrofit of a machine very soon.  I have a galil 2180 that I've had for quite a while, but for support reasons and  since I don't want to rely on ebay for replacements in the future and expect to do another retrofit soon, I am considering the dspmc option... So, I am wondering how far along people are.   Any parts made yet?  What is it looking like?  It looks like the dspmc is going to ge a great option for the future, but I want to be making parts in two-three weeks.  Is that possible with the dspmc?

Thanks,

Bill
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on May 26, 2008, 04:00:04 PM
I second that.  I was installing a galil system on the spindle wizard I'm retrofitting.  I bought everything new from galil except the control itself which was a used dmc2160 (even though i knew I could buy the same cables from mouser or sager for 1/3 the price).  The control turned out to report as a dmc2120 despite reporting the correct serial number for the dmc2160 and having all the chips on the board.  Instead of suggesting what the possible causes of this could be or asking me to send it in for service the technical support department first had the secretary tell me the whole department was out to lunch, then she told me they wouldn't talk to me because my control was used, then the manager she let me talk to after that was practically giggling while he told me "buy a new 2260 and I'll shower you with support."  Yes that's a real quote.

I'd never use galil anything again.  I've gotten 4 advanced motion & controls 30a8 amplifiers to replace the galil amp19540 that I returned and am looking at the dspmc/ip control to go between them and mach on my laptop.
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on May 26, 2008, 04:04:24 PM
Bill

we are fixing couple of bugs.  one system is live in Finland right now.  other palces are in the process of retrofit.  Milling feature is 99% operational.  homing code has some bugs.  should be working 100% in few days.  trying to add index pulse in homing as well. 

we had jog and homing implemented thru the plugin, but because of the buffred motion, the customers did not approve the operation.  thats why it is taking more time as we are moving these features into the dspmc board to avoid buffering.

future enhancement include threading, rigid tapping, and probing.

regards,
Rufi
www.vitalsystem.com/dspmc
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on June 06, 2008, 11:53:30 PM
any updates?
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on June 07, 2008, 01:24:40 PM
Homing and Joging operations are tested and confirmed by beta testers.  no more buffered motion.  also, feed hold now stops motion instantaneously.  will be adding index pulse homing as time permits.

thanks
Rufi


Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on June 07, 2008, 03:44:24 PM
good news,

Thanks, can you guess on when index pulse homing will be added?  Probing too, I think homing to index and being able to probe will help me set up and do batches much faster.
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: pavlic28 on June 09, 2008, 05:14:32 PM
Hi!
 I have one question. Is this works whit stepper motors? Because in manuals "  http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/motion/dspmc.pdf " on page 11 it is written that pins on J3 are for stepper motors outputs.

 Thanks!
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on June 29, 2008, 06:26:39 PM
Hey Rufi,

How's it going?  Are you still working on homing to index and probing?  I'm itching to pull the trigger on one of these but really want it to have those features. 
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on June 29, 2008, 07:17:06 PM


so far, the existing customers have not flaged that as an issue, so thats why we have not added index pulse homing.  If a customer asks for it, we will add this feature asap, otherwise it is sitting in the things to do list backlog.  not sure when its turn will come.

for probing, pls email me directly some info about its operation and requirements so we can start work on it. I have to learn myself on how the probing works.

thank you
Rufi
www.vitalsystem.com/dspmc

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on June 29, 2008, 07:30:50 PM
Hi!
 I have one question. Is this works whit stepper motors? Because in manuals " http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/motion/dspmc.pdf " on page 11 it is written that pins on J3 are for stepper motors outputs.

 Thanks!

sorry for the late reply.  somehow I missed that message in my mail box.

we have 6 stepper outputs on the dspmc board.  The software allows upto 5Khz of step pulse train.  so if your motor is 200 pulse / rev, you can get max speed of 1500 rpm.  when placing the order, pls specify stepper option.  this option is not available in standard dspmc boards.

thank you

Rufi
www.vitalsystem.com/dspmc



Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on June 29, 2008, 08:47:02 PM
Homing to the index will allow two important things for me:

I'm going to have stations set up on my table.  A rotary table mounted horizontally, a self centering chuck mounted face up, and a vice.  With the acuracy of homing to the index I can put stock into any of those stations and run the program to machine the piece without going through edge finding or anything to get my start point.  It eliminates set up time for me making it reasonable to do much smaller batches (with the price of materials these days that is of huge importance to me).

The second thing homing to index will allow (assuming homing to only the index without a home switch is also enabled) is I can home the rotary table to a great degree of acuracy without using any home switch at all. 

I know lots of people don't even have indexes but it's a huge benefit to me.  I'm seriously only waiting for that feature to be added to go ahead with my purchase.




so far, the existing customers have not flaged that as an issue, so thats why we have not added index pulse homing. If a customer asks for it, we will add this feature asap, otherwise it is sitting in the things to do list backlog. not sure when its turn will come.

for probing, pls email me directly some info about its operation and requirements so we can start work on it. I have to learn myself on how the probing works.

thank you
Rufi
www.vitalsystem.com/dspmc


Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: TOTALLYRC on July 10, 2008, 11:13:53 PM
I will be purchasing the dspmc/ip board this week. The reasons are as follows.

1. Great response to my emails.
2. Online documentation is very strong. :)
3. Of course the ability to use Mach3. ;D
4. All of the I/O to work with my 24 position ATC.
5. 6 axis of control. I will be using 4 right off the bat.
6. It will run the analogue controls that came with my mill.
7. Optocoupled when you buy the breakout boards

A couple of minor things come to mind that I was less than thrilled with.
1. It needs 5 breakout boards to access all of the connections=more $  also = more protection.
2. Stepper option is not standard= more$  Would make the use of a 4th axis easier.



If any one has an opinion either way let me know.
After looking at all the options this seems to be the best way to go because of price, features and support.

Mike.

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on July 18, 2008, 02:18:50 PM
I was told if I ordered one he'd get right on setting up a choice of homing routines for each axis so that we can choose to home to only the home switch, home to the home switch then to the index, or home to the index only.  That's how galil does it.  As it turns out I'll be using the home to the home switch then the index on all my axes so that's the one I'm concerned about and since it is promised right away with my order......

I ordered the DSPMC/IP, three 7711 break out boards, and a 7535 digital IO board today.

My machine is top of the line comercial quality and sitting ready to go except for the control so I'll be able to give good feedback on the control soon.

It sounds like he's also willing to jump into getting probing going with the dspmc/ip and Art's probe.  ( http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=14 )  Assuming it performs and I hope and these features are added in I think this control will stand out as the obvious choice for servo systems and mach.  I'll provide them with some video of my machine they can use to help prove themselves in the  market place.
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: TOTALLYRC on July 19, 2008, 08:48:31 AM
I too have just ordered the DSPMC/IP controller and all of the breakout boards to access all of the capabilites of this board.

I figured If I purchased all of the connections now I wouldnt have to pay for shipping later when I need the extra capabilities later.

Other than  don't care for Google checkout, the purchase went smoothly.

 My stuff should arrive on tuesday and I will begin installing it. I am using this to control my BTC-1 with the 24 position tool holder.

I will keep on updating here as work progresses. The Btc-1 ran the day before I picked it up so I shouldn't have to worry about the rest of the electronics.

Michael

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: hunserv on July 23, 2008, 09:29:19 AM
Just started wondering...
MACH sends only trajectory data to dsp/MC/IP right?

Now if used with Mach, does it mean that I can use S-curve motion control, or it will strictly use trapezoidal only?

I ask it because I want to take advantage on some jerk control...

In detail, when I think about trapezoidal speed profiles, then the controller has to know which axis accelerates at which rate, and it has to synchronize these to each other in order to get an accurate toolpath.
Now with S-curve profiling these synchronizing calculations would be even more complex on the curves, no? So are these performed somewhere, in the controller? If not then it should mean that only trapezoidal velocity profiles are available during multiaxis commands. With or without mach...

Maybe a small explanation on "how it works" would be handful. Earlier I asked about some block scheme, or whatever, just to make tech. things clear.
Sorry for being so nosy :)
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on July 23, 2008, 11:54:12 AM
hunserv,

the dspmc follows the command positions generated by mach at a rate of 1000 per sec.  and these are generated using a trapezoidal profile. the dspMC board cannot change the profile as it has to follow the points as it is.  however the Jog profile is generated by the dspMC.  there we can use S-Curve profile. 

thank you
Rufi

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: hunserv on July 24, 2008, 05:02:45 PM
So then you say No-way S velocity profile unless Artsoft gives a boost to Quantum? :)
Do these command "positions" mean that only straight moves are done with the dspMC/IP ? Or there are circular commands as well and perhaps other features?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on July 24, 2008, 06:47:43 PM
hi hunserv

all gcode moves are generated by mach and it is upto them whatever profile they select.  only when you do cont. jog and homing, the profile is generated by the dspmc board, which is currently also trapezoidal.

thanks
Rufi
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on July 29, 2008, 07:59:42 PM
My dspmc/ip and breakout boards have arrived.  I'm sidelining the install until i have the new ac installed in the shop in 3-5 days.  It's at the top of the list after that.
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on August 09, 2008, 12:18:51 PM
Is the Mach3 driver required when Mach is used with the dspmc/ip plugin?
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on August 09, 2008, 01:27:48 PM
No

Mach3 pp driver is not used at all.
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: usfwalden on August 18, 2008, 04:12:24 PM
So far so good.  It looks like the dspmc will shape up to be all that it promisses.  I think this will be THE servo controller to use with Mach.  I don't have the io hooked up yet but i have the control and break out boards installed and the encoders and amps hooked up so I can make motion.  I have my A-M-C amps tuned in voltage mode so I am running what is called a position over voltage loop--meaning my amps are running a voltage loop and the dspmc is running a position loop over that.  The following is a repost from my showntell thread on my spindle wizard for the benefit of others using the dspmc or considering using it.  I personally think my machine is the "***balls***" mechanically/electrically so it will let the dspmc shine.  My encoders are 1000 line quadrature encoders so 4000 counts per rev and my ballscrews are 5tpi so that's 20,000 counts per inch.  With my motors and power supply I should max at about 190 ipm so I am tuning at 150 ipm to be aggressive but avoid clipping by either the amps or control DACs.

Controller's PID tuning:

At first I tried a bunch of different tuning methods where you adjust one parameter at a time and wasn't  having much luck.  Then I tried a method where you set both p and d at the same time in a ratio determined by the pid loop sample rate.  The DSPMC/IP has a 5kHz sample rate which means the D should be 25 times the P--then if your amps are in current mode you probably have to turn up d but as you will see I didn't have to.  I have my scale set to 100.  This will allow me to have a small integer I--I will probably barely need any I at all.

First iteration I tried
P=100
D=2500
(http://www.ecutune.com/mill/1st.jpg)



There was no motion on the first try to I multiplied by 10
Second iteration I tried
P=1000
D=25000
.....oops, I forgot to save that screenshot


There was very sluggish motion so I multiplied by 2
3rd iteration I tried
p=2000
d=50000
(http://www.ecutune.com/mill/3rd.jpg)








The motion was much better but still sluggish so I multiplied by 2 again
4th iteration I tried
p=4000
d=100,000
(http://www.ecutune.com/mill/4th.jpg)





motion was excellent so I tested larger moves
(http://www.ecutune.com/mill/1000.jpg)
(http://www.ecutune.com/mill/10000.jpg)




Vital systems is still working on the axisworks software.  That's an alpha I'm working on now.  I asked Rufi/Abdul to add check boxes allow traces to be added for position error, commanded velocity, and commanded acceleration and to remove the commanded position and actual position.  When he has that done it will be easy to Dial in the feed forwards which I want to do before even bothering with throwing an I in the pid loop.
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: eds on August 20, 2008, 07:07:18 AM
hello
I'm retrofitting a large cnc mill in china after shipping the machine the controller would not run properly so we thought we would try mach3/dspmc. the first problem was to switch from source to sink . Do you have sink source selectable option for future projects?
 I might be missing something but I was looking for a page that would configure or map the analogue inputs and outputs the for use on the mach3 also the manual does not go into much detail on this topic .
thanks
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on August 27, 2008, 12:27:25 AM
hi eds,

the axis configuration, eg counter, DAC, enable, pid etc, are saved in the dspmc.xml file located at c:\mach3 folder.  you can use a text editor like notepad to change the config, or you can also change the config using the AxisWorks software tool.  the 7535 opto-isolated digital b/o board is for sinking (NPN) type i/o.  we are releasing a similar b/o board for sourcing (PNP) type i/o in the next few weeks.

thank you
Rufi
www.vitalsystem.com/dspmc
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: rickbartolome on October 04, 2008, 04:52:08 AM
Hi Rufi,

I have retrofit project for an old cnc mill, I use mach3 for my other project using stepper motor and this run very well.
now I need a closed loop system. I want to try your DSPMC/IP. I send request for quote in your sales but no response.

Can you provide me price including cost of shipping to Manila, Philippines.

Regards,
Rick
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on October 19, 2008, 12:49:08 AM
hi Rick,

pls email your request to  sales _at_ vitalsystem _dot_ com   or   sales _at_ vsi99 _dot_ com.

thanks
Rufi

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Bostjan on November 12, 2008, 05:47:15 PM
HI Vital Team,

it took some time for me to start working on my project using dspMC;
however;
1.) do I need to dowload any plugin or upgrade - I  dowloaded last version of axis works, do the connection via Xover cable and it seems to work OK
2.) When connecting first old encoder I have some problems?:
- I am not sure whether mine encoders are OK - it seems that they have all signals (A,A+,B.B+,Ref,Ref+,U,GND) bit I am not sure if they work - how can I check via axis works
3.) When connecting Z axis encoder to dsp and pressing connct button in axis soft, green button turns on; when manualy turning encoder nothing hapens on axis soft- I have not output from dsp to drives connected yet
4.) Some advise please on further steps - currently I have just encoder wired, no outputs are connected; must I connect outputs in order to seen if encoders are working properly
5.) Since drives were working already with previous setup I do not intend to change any drives setup

Some photos of current setup
http://picasaweb.google.com/bostjan681/AlbumBrezNaslova
Thanks for any help
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on November 30, 2008, 01:13:10 PM
pls also post an email to sales _at_ vitalsystem _dot_ com when you post here.  sometime dont get notification.

when you move encoder and don't see any change in AxisWorks display, make sure you have assigned the correct encoder number to the axis.  when you run axisWorks, make sure you download the configuration saved in dspmc.xml file by using the "Download Configuration" button.

also, the latest manual has lot of information available.

thanks,
Rufi

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: halkintool on December 23, 2008, 10:31:05 AM
What version of axis works is being run above?

Mine looks totally different, i have to open and adjust PID values in a different window. The version you have looks much better.
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on December 23, 2008, 10:59:17 AM
The latest version is on the web page www.vitalsystem.com/dspmc (http://www.vitalsystem.com/dspmc).  The above AxisWorks is one of the alpha versions that was buggy.  It was not released for general use. 

You do enter PID settings in a separate window.  you don't have to close it while you work with the graph.  leave it open so you can re-enter values and see result in the graph. 

Will be updating the manual soon for the latest AxisWork operation. 

thanks
Rufi

Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: halkintool on December 23, 2008, 11:27:13 AM
Leaving the window open is fine, however, im running a 17" monitor, and its not possible to get a full view of both windows, also, when you use the graph it pretty well blocks everything. The version posted above looks more more user friendly. It looks similar to the Baldor Workbench i used to tune my drives, much nicer to tune with IMO.
Title: Re: Welcome to the dspMC/IP board
Post by: Vital System Support on December 23, 2008, 12:45:36 PM
thanks for the feedback.  the graph window is small on the above version.  is that ok?  we will try to put similar features in the new version. 

regards,
Rufi