Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: steve0429 on June 18, 2022, 08:50:17 PM
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So I just got my first CNC. It came with Mach3 software. But when I look on your site I see it recommends Mach4.
1. Should I even install Mach3 or go straight to Mach4?
2. How much is it to upgrade?
3. What boxes do I need to tick to decide to use Mach4 vs Mach3? My CNC does have a USB port instead of parallel, if that plays in the decision.
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Hi,
if this is your first CNC experience then I would recommend Mach4 rather than Mach3. Mach4 is still be actively developed whereas all development of Mach3 ceased seven years ago.
It rather sounds like you have a Mach3 ready USB connected external motion controller? The vast majority, especially the Chinese made USB controllers, work (mostly!) with Mach3 only.
You can run Mach4 as a parallel port. The parallel port plugin is called Darwin and a $25.00 license fee applies. It would allow you to use a Windows 7 or earlier 32 bit PC but it will lack
many of the reatltime supports that you may want in the future. So a parallel port works but not recommended.
There are seven manufacturers of Mach4 ready external motion controllers:
1) Ethernet SmoothStepper ($190) by Warp 9
2) 57CNc by PoKeys ( $150)
3) UC100, UC300, UC400 by CNCDrive ( $120 through $160)
4) Hicon ( starts at $600) by Vital Systems
5) CSMIO (600 Euro, has buggy Mach4 plugin, good quality but marginal support)
6) PMDX412, PMDX426 ($120 through $260)
7) XHC, don't know the price, severely limited plugin, avoid like the plague.
All have their strengths and weaknesses. The two standout, in terms of realtime supports, are the Ethernet SmoothStepper and the Hicon. Having said that the PoKeys, UCnnn
and PMDXnnn will all work well for three axis CNC machines, but may miss on THC, or backlash comp, or single point lathe threading for instance.
Some of these devices require a breakout board as well, the ESS and UCnnn series for example. A breakout board does not really add any functionality so much as it buffers the motion board
output signals and provides good (screw) terminations for wires to your drives and limits switches etc. They can be a simple as a C10, a one port (17IO's) bidirectional board for $23.00
up to an MB3, a three port (51 IOs) for $190.
So you can see there is a reasonable range of hardware on offer all designed to extract the best from Mach4.
I have been using Mach4 for seven years with an ESS (Ethernet SmoothStepper). I used to use C10 (equivalents) but now use my own design and built breakout board. My new machine
is all servo driven and I wanted some servo specific features, ergo I made my own.
Post a few pictures of you machine, we may be able to identify various bits that may inform your decisions.
Craig
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If it is running on Mach3 and working well leave it alone . Don't fix what isn't broken.
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I haven't tried installing Mach3 on the laptop yet. I didn't want to go down that road yet until I factored in the pros/cons of what it would take to get it to run Mach4.
I believe I have a Chinese 6040 4 Axis 1000W USB controller with 800W water-cooled spindle sold by Vevor. Pictures attached.
Thanks, Craig for your lengthy response. Most of that I didn't understand but did quite a bit of googling to kinda get up to speed. If I went with the ESS/Mach4 approach, then I have these questions:
1. Need a C10 (or similar) for my motors and limit switches
2. Need some other BOB for the variable speed spindle?
3. If done the above, then what does the big black box controller do? Just provides power? How does the new components interface with the remnants of black controller box?
4. Hasn't someone bundled all this into plug-n-play box already?
5. Is there an upgrade price from Mach3 to Mach4?
Obviously, you can tell I'm a nubie, but is there a youtube video(s) that shows a feller how to make all the changes listed above?
Thanks for the direction.
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Enjoy a large learning curve. If its set up for Mach3 get used to it before changing stuff . Mach3 was a great software . All vendor have to keep coming up with new software to keep the money coming in . That's why Microsoft stops support for for older operating systems .
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If you open the controller Box and find a BSMCEO44U-PP controller card inside, you are somewhat committed to MACH3. It is Mach3 only compatible.
Mach3 is a stable platform and it works very well. Unless you are into a full scale machine shop needing sophisticated control processes, stick with Mach3. Your CNC is set up for it and will be pretty close to plug and play in metric mode. Download the latest version of MACH 3 from Newfangled (It might be the same version), try it before you license it. It will do small files for trial. The copy that came with it will also be a trial copy (you will eventually wind up paying for a license). It is fairly easy to learn, but it takes real time to get good at it.
I can help you with any setup problems. I also have a reasonable translation of the BSMCEO44 operating manual.
Bill
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Hi,
Is there an upgrade price from Mach3 to Mach4?
No, you either buy Mach3 ($175) or Mach4 ($200), there is no upgrade.
If your machine is supplied with Mach3 then it is almost certainly a pirate copy, the Chinese are shockers for doing that.
If you want to use Mach4 then you'll need an external motion controller like and ESS and a breakout board. A C10 will get you going,
but a more sophisticated breakout board will include a relay for the spindle and a PWM to analogue circuit to control speed.
If you open the controller Box and find a BSMCEO44U-PP controller card inside, you are somewhat committed to MACH3. It is Mach3 only compatible.
As has been posted this is most likely correct. I personally regard those controller boards as junk but others have been able to get them to work, but as noted, Mach3 ONLY.
Good luck.
Craig
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Take it from a guy that has and STILL IS trying to upgrade from 3-4. It will make you very angry and there is a huge learning curve and anyone suggesting there isn't is full of it. Mach4 is a good software for programmers and not DIYers. There are a lot of mods that need to be done not to mention the setup of the pins, spindle, etc. I work on mine a little and then walk away so I don't drop kick the computer. Here is a small example, my WORK ZERO does NOTHING so I have to go in and modify the script to tell it to work. You would think that would be a "from the factory" thing but evidently it isn't. Just several little things like that that can make you say WHY DID I JUST SPEND $200 ON THIS!! I am still hoping I can overcome, and it works good in the end but I am still using Mach3 after almost 8 months of switching over.
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Hi,
Take it from a guy that has and STILL IS trying to upgrade from 3-4. It will make you very angry and there is a huge learning curve and anyone suggesting there isn't is full of it.
That is 100% correct. You need patience pills or Bourbon or both.
Mach4 is a good software for programmers and not DIYers.
This I disagree with. For regular 3 and 4 axis machines Mach4 is good to go out of the box. If any programming is required it amounts to
a few keystrokes to turn this feature on or turn that feature off, being able to program in Lua is not required.
not to mention the setup of the pins, spindle, etc.
Yes, you have to set up the ports and pins in a broadly similar manner to Mach3, and yes its challenging, but that comes
with building your own machine.
Here is a small example, my WORK ZERO does NOTHING so I have to go in and modify the script to tell it to work. You would think that would be a "from the factory" thing but evidently it isn't.
I've never had an issue with <Go To Work Zero>, it always worked out of the box, right from day one.
One of the big strengths of Mach4 is that it can be customized to your needs with Lua, the editable GUI and Mach4s modular structure.
Mach4s biggest weakness is that it can be customized to your needs. Yes, if you want to customize your machine then you will have to start coding,
and yes there is a lot of learning required to get good results, its not magic.
I've been using Mach4 for nearly eight years and its so vastly superior to Mach3 I'd slash my wrists before I'd go backwards.
Craig
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Please do not slash anything as we need you terribly :). Read my other post and you will see what I mean for the Work Zero issue. This has been an issue for many in the past.
The biggest trouble I see is everything is so customizable it can be overwhelming for a newer person. Again I am really hoping for the best but as you can see by other posts 4 is not terribly user friendly. I am hoping if I can get this last issue fixed I will be cutting my first piece tomorrow and will come back here and tell these guys just how wrong I was.....NOT.
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Hi,
The biggest trouble I see is everything is so customizable it can be overwhelming for a newer person.
That is true, it is customizable and it can be overwhelming.....but you don't NEED to customize it.
The only custom code in my machine is to do with handling servo alarms and the wired pendant. Twenty lines of code or less,
hardly rocket science.
I do have macros (written in Lua) that automate certain procedures that I use when making circuit boards. One has about
300 lines of code...so yes a newcomer might struggle with it. I've been using that macro unaltered for 71/2 years,. It took probably
twenty or so hours to write back then, and a steep learning curve it was, but I've used it tens of thousands of times since.
Craig
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Take it from a guy that has and STILL IS trying to upgrade from 3-4. It will make you very angry and there is a huge learning curve and anyone suggesting there isn't is full of it. Mach4 is a good software for programmers and not DIYers. There are a lot of mods that need to be done not to mention the setup of the pins, spindle, etc. I work on mine a little and then walk away so I don't drop kick the computer. Here is a small example, my WORK ZERO does NOTHING so I have to go in and modify the script to tell it to work. You would think that would be a "from the factory" thing but evidently it isn't. Just several little things like that that can make you say WHY DID I JUST SPEND $200 ON THIS!! I am still hoping I can overcome, and it works good in the end but I am still using Mach3 after almost 8 months of switching over.
No disrespect meant here at all. I'm just trying to point somethings out that may not be obvious. There is a certain amount of setup that has to be done with Mach 3 or Mach 4. Buying an OEM machine that is preconfigured relieves you from becoming the "machine integrator". However, the OP has not used Mach 3 before so he doesn't have Mach 3 habits to break. Like it or not, that is what it is. We all get used to doing thing a certain way and resist change even if change will make something better. But make no mistake, if you built a machine and installed Mach 3 from scratch, you would spend about the same amount of time configuring Mach 3 as you would Mach 4. It is just different, not harder. Just different.
BTW, the "Goto Work Zero" button used to move X, Y, then Z. But people who had just 2 axis machines complained about trying to move the unconfigured Z axis. Then we made it just move X and Y without touching Z and people complained that they crashed their Z because it didn't move the Z to a safe level. So then we just made it where you have to make it do exactly what you want it to do. And people still complain. :(
When I install Mach 4, the only thing I will touch after setting up the motion controller is the "Goto Work Zero" button and the keyboard bindings if I'm not using a panel and the machine doesn't have a tool changer. It runs machines quite well "out of the box". Now, it may not be how you want it to be, especially if you are used to Mach 3. And then you are going to have to learn a bit to customize Mach 4 to your liking. I see a lot of Mach 3 users wanting to change Mach 4 to be more like Mach 3. It is like upgrading from XP to Windows 10. Sure XP was good, but so is Windows 10. But they are different and most of us don't go trying to change Windows 10 to look or act like Windows XP. And I think the reason is there just isn't much way of doing that. Maybe we shouldn't have made Mach 4 as configurable as it is. But that is what people told us they wanted when they couldn't "do" some task or functionality in Mach 3. So we have figured out (very painfully I might add) that we can't make everyone happy. :(
Also, I say this over and over. Mach 4 is not Mach 3. Just like XP isn't Windows 10. Which Mach is better? Well... one (Mach 3) hasn't any development on it in nearly a decade. In fact, it REQUIRES an XP machine and a very old compiler to compile it. The other (Mach 4) is compiled daily and actively developed. I'd go with Mach 4 for that reason alone. How long will Mach 3 continue to run on modern versions of Windows? They (Microsoft) basically made it where the parallel port plugin won't work anymore already. And the very compiler that Mach 3 used (written by Microsoft!) will not run on anything newer than Windows XP. So that would be a very real concern for me. But that's my opinion. I'm rather like Craig and would start slashing if I had to go back to Mach 3.
And to the OP, I hate it that you got one of those Chinese controllers. I know the price was appealing vs. others but it is usually just wasted money in the end. I wish there was a way to put up a huge warning anytime someone searched on hobby CNC machines that says "Noooooooooo!". Those guys will probably bundle their machines with Mach 3 for 20 more years. Why? Because they can't bundle it with Mach 4! And I don't think they can bundle with LinuxCNC either.
Steve
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When having just bought a Mach3 compatible CNC system from China, and asking the question 'Should I upgrade to Mach4?'. It isn't about whether or not to do it, but when if ever.
Yes Mach3 is obsolete and it has been left behind. And yes, Mach 4 is the obvious choice for software that is current. However, that is really only the tip of the problem.
The software upgrade isn't trivial but is really simple compared to the hardware upgrade that must accompany it.
The new CNC owner is going to want to see his new investment work now, not in 3 or more months.
Once he has it running and discovers that he really likes operating a CNC, then and only then should he consider the upgrade to Mach4.
The hardware upgrade will be a daunting task. The user will have to decide on the correct upgrade path for his situation, and then purchase the hardware to do it. Once he has the hardware, he will have to perform a fairly major modification to the his controller box. This will include ripping out the old controller and installing the new controller. This will not be a plug and play event. He will have to decipher and implement the electrical wiring changes that must be made. This will require mechanical and electrical skills that, I believe, most beginning users do not have.
So, in my mind and in this situation, starting with Mach3 and then researching and planning the process to upgrade to Mach4 is the way to go.
Because the BSMCEO-4U-PP USB controller card is being used in many of these Chinese systems, the real deal maker would be a Mach4 compatible driver for it. It is a cheap card, but it does work. It would minimize the hardware upgrade issue for most of these users, and many would gladly upgrade to Mach4 if it was only about installing software.
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Because the BSMCEO-4U-PP USB controller card is being used in many of these Chinese systems, the real deal maker would be a Mach4 compatible driver for it. It is a cheap card, but it does work. It would minimize the hardware upgrade issue for most of these users, and many would gladly upgrade to Mach4 if it was only about installing software.
Unfortunately, none of these companies want to sign the legal paperwork to make that happen. That should say a lot about them. I'm not talking about the vendors. But the actual machine builders who put it all together as a "turnkey" system. They would rather NOT do what it takes to write a Mach 4 plugin and keep shipping the Mach 3 stuff. Because their goal is to only take your money. That is all there is to it.
Steve
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Our company just got one of the cncest machines. It is running mach 3. I have found it impossible to set up homing on x and y no z axis limits. I will need to add those. any help is appreciated. We are thinking about changing out the controller.
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I did a Mach3 machine years ago and recently a Mach4.. the Mach4 install was much easier initially.. I needed to adjust some items in Mach4 and most were relatively straightforward.. a bit of a learning curve before you will get a grip on how to manage some scripting etc... often information is available but not necessarily easy to find. Overall I found Mach4 much easier to work with. ???
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Sending a CNC to the home position, may be dangerous to do without getting the tool (Z axis) out of harm's way.
However, in MACH3, the HOME command is merely a macro that can be easily edited to do anything you desire.
You can modify or eliminate the Z action, change the order of operations, and/or add some other fancy step.
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the actual HOMING is now offloaded to the motion controller not Mach4 itself.. in my case the Mach3 application had no actual home, and in my Mach4 application, the servo's I'm using have their own Homing procedure.. I also have a plc which sequences the three axis' so my z-axis homes first, then Y, then X. I've modified and added some scripting which signals the plc that a Home sequence is requested.. and the plc signals Mach4 when all 3 axis' are homed at which time Mach4 references the axis' and allows the program to start. :o
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Thank you, you have confirmed my suspicions. Its never as easy as it looks.
Time to learn more stuff. My 66 year old learner is a bit slower these days.