Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: kolias on March 01, 2022, 03:47:22 AM
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It’s about 5 years I stopped building CNC machines, I made 9 in the past (most in aluminum plate) which I did as a hobby and then sold to recover my cost. Now I would like to make a small one to keep for hobby use, about 16”x16” cutting area with 4 NEMA 23 stepper motors but I have forgotten a lot about the rest.
I have a Taig 200-60 ER-16 spindle with a Sherline 33080 DC motor and speed control 90VDC, 6100RPM which is good for my needs. I also have a Mech3 license which I bought in 2009 and I would like to keep the same if I can. I understand Mach3 has changed a lot since 2009 but I don’t know anything more. To make my drawings and g-code I have access to Mastercam X5 and I know how to use it.
I also have the required linear support rails and ball screws/bearings which I can cut to fit my needs.
I know that I have to buy a Gecko G540 driver (I think) and the computer to drive the new CNC is a 7 years old ASUS 17” laptop with Windows 8.1.
The problem now starts with the interface between the laptop and Gecko. Before I was using desktops with a printer cable but now I don’t want to use a desktop so the printer cable is out. Using 4 motors for A/Y axes +X +Z vs 3 motors Y+X+Z does not take much more space but using a desktop along with a screen takes much more space and I don’t want that. The new CNC must be as compact as possible.
So what are the available options / suggestions?
Thank you
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Mach 3 support stopped in 2012 so it hasn't changed much! The latest version is 3.043.062 and you can download it free from the Newfangled Solutions site. Mach 3 is no longer supported except through this help forum but still works just fine. Though actually I'm not sure about on Windows 8 - you'll need to check. I started using it on an XP desktop (parallel port) but have just moved to a Win10 mini with external USB motion controllers with no issues. Your existing license will also work.
The Gecko expects a parallel port driver on a 25 way D connector. In my case both my machines have breakout boards with this connector, and I use UC100 USB motion controllers from CNCDrive and these work brilliantly. They are built into a D-type shell with the 25-way on one side and USB on the other and are no bigger than a standard plug, except you don't need the horrible thick cable. Some people have had issues with USB if there's a lot of electrical noise from the machine drive but with your titchy drive motor this shouldn't be a problem. There are a lot of UC100 clones around, make sure you get a genuine one. CNCDrive have the required drivers and plugin available from their site, you just install the plugin in the appropriate folder, select the UC100 on startup, and you should be away.
The Gecko looks a very nice unit, but quite high quality drivers are available much cheaper these days even for 4 of them, also good BoBs are quite cheap.
I had a very similar aim as you, to save a lot of space as I upgraded from my old PC, and it has been very successful (so far!).
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Thank you so much John for the detailed reply, very helpful
Let me research and digest what you say and I will get back most likely with some questions.
For now what do you mean with “….Win10 mini with external USB…”. I know of Win10 but Win10 mini I don’t know what it is
Thanks
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Basically a very small Dell Win10 machine. It's the size of a small stack of CD cases... Has 4 USB ports, Ethernet, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth. Obviously needs a monitor, which I had anyway, and I've treated it to a cheap Logitech wireless keyboard. I also use a an XBox controller for jogging around.
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Thanks John, now I got it
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Hey John, I searched for USB motion controller and their site is in Hungary. I wanted to ask some questions about their controllers but I prefer to deal with companies from USA. Did you get your US100 from them or you have another contact possibly you would like to share?
Basically I want to ask what they can offer to connect my laptop with the Mach3, the Sherline motor/controller along with the 4 stepper motors
Thanks
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Hello Nicolas, CNCDrive is a Hungarian company but any queries will probably be answered by Balazs Klincsik who has excellent English and he was very helpful. Their site has a "distributors" page http://cncdrive.com/distributors.html and there are a few in North America. I actually bought the products from their UK distro, CNC4you - https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Motion-Control/UC100-USB-Motion-Controller - and they use them in their own machines so I guess could support them as well. Hopefully you'll get support from the US ones as well. There's also a good user forum on the CNCDrive site.
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Much appreciated John
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Hi,
USB connected external motion controllers like a UC100 have been around for many tears. If you go to buy one DON'T buy a knock-off Chinese
copy off Ebay or Amazon, get the real deal or don't bother.
Most manufacturers have gone away from USB connections for motion devices. Too much latency and poor electrical noise immunity, most, including
CNCDrive, have gone to Ethernet and is much preferred.
I use an Ethernet SmoothStepper from Warp9TD, and have done for seven years. I also use Mach4 which is light years ahead of Mach3 IMHO, although
you have much experience with Mach3 and it still works OK.
Craig
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Thank you Craig for the info, very interesting and adds to my confusion because I know nothing about these systems.
I’m well aware about CNC’s with the printer cable but I know nothing about USB connections or Ethernet SmoothStepper and I’m sure it’s not as simple as buying a USB connection or Ethernet SmoothStepper and I’m all done, there must be other parts which I need to have a functional CNC.
With the printer cable I know that I needed, besides the stepper motors and the spindle, the drivers for the stepper motors and the appropriate BOB plus a relay or two depending on the BOB. The BOB was the heart of the system connecting all together to the Mach3 via the printer cable
Can someone tell me what parts are required with the USB connection and the SmoothStepper?
In addition, based on your experience the pros/cons of each?
And when you are talking about Ethernet SmoothStepper where the Ethernet fits?
My thanks to all
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Hi,
Can someone tell me what parts are required with the USB connection and the SmoothStepper?
Really not much....
First a small explanation that may help. Machs trajectory planner produces numeric data which describe the controlled point in 1 millisecond time slices. The familiar Mach parallel port
takes that numeric data and generates pulse stream to the motors to enact the commands. Machs parallel port did a pretty good job, but it was and still is, FAR from what a PC is good at.
An external motion controller like a UC100 or a SmoothStepper takes the numeric data and converts it into pulse streams. The hardware of the controller is vastly better, faster and more
accurate than a PC is at the same job.
A UC100 is USB connected to the PC and that's how it gets the numeric data from Mach and produces the pulse streams on a DB25 socket. You could plug your G540 straight into it,
nothing extra required.
A SmoothStepper is Ethernet connected and that's how it gets its data from Mach and it produces pulse streams onto an IDC26 pin socket that replicates a parallel port. With a IDC-to-DB25 adaptor cable
you can plug you G540 straight in, nothing extra required. The ESS actually has three parallel output ports so you could have the G540 plugged into port 1 and if you still want more inputs or outputs
you could plug simple and cheap parallel breakout boards plugged into ports 2&3 to have an extra 34IO's....if you want them.
When I changed from a parallel port to an ESS seven years ago all those extra inputs and output are a pure luxury after having to combine things cleverly with a much more limited parallel port.
For instance I have one input for each of my six limit switches and another three inputs for my home switches, for a total of nine inputs......because I've got them. Mach NEVER gets confused between
a Home event and a Limit event because they are all on individual circuits.....pure luxury, and that doesn't count the five inputs I use for a wired pendant, nor the dedicated Probe input.
Craig
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Much appreciated Craig for your time and that’s what I wanted. At least now I know a bit more of these new to me setups. I have been reading on the web to further educate myself and if/when you have the time please let me know the answer to my question below.
Perhaps I misunderstood but I read that using UC100, Mach3 is not required. If that’s true then how where do you arrange the settings which we normally use on Mach3 screen? What kind of a screen you have in your PC?
So regardless if I choose to use the UC100 or SmoothStepper I will still need drivers for the steppers + a BOB with capabilities to connect my spindle.
My thanks again
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Hi,
the UC100 is made by CNCDrive and their software is called UCCNC. If you are familiar with Mach3 you would also be happy with UCCNC.
The UC100 requires at least one CNC software, so either Mach3 (or Mach4) or UCCNC. If you stick with Mach3 then you will install a plugin
supplied by CNCDrive and that will allow you to make pin assignments and other stuff you are already familiar with.
So regardless if I choose to use the UC100 or SmoothStepper I will still need drivers for the steppers + a BOB with capabilities to connect my spindle.
Yes, re-reading your initial post I realise you don't have a G540....when I assumed that you have one already. As you know the G540 has four stepper drivers built-in and doubles
as a breakout board. If you want bigger or better stepper drivers then a breakout board and individual drivers are required.
Craig
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Gosh Craig looks like you know everything lol and I’m happy about it. Yes I do know Mach3 and very well actually so that clears my question about the UC100
I don’t have a G540 but I have use them before a few times and they are pretty good, but expensive and I will look if 4 drivers + BOB are much less expensive otherwise I will stick with the G540. I used to buy them from Keling (now they are called I think Automation…something). I don’t want anything better than Gecko and I remember the G540 was able to run nicely the Sherline spindle I have with the VS controller but I had to use a relay which is nothing special.
Thanks again for your time
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Hi,
G540's used to be about $300, and given the quality I'd say pretty good value.
If there were one limitation that I don't like about a G540 is the 50VDC max input voltage, I'd much prefer 80VDC if not higher.
There are plenty of good Chinese made stepper drivers of 80VDC input and up to 6A-8A outputs for around $70.00
Four such drivers is $280 and you'd still need a breakout board....so $300 for a G540 starts to look pretty good.
Craig
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I agree Craig, G540 is a good unit at a good price. Problem for me is the shipping cost from USA to Canada which since the mid 21’s and after the postal strike down there went up by a lot.
Looking now to see if I can get it locally but for sure I will still have to buy the rest parts from USA or China so it needs a lot of work to figure out where I get what I need.
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Hi,
apparently UPS is not accepting any mail for Australia or New Zealand and has not done so for a while.
Craig
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I’m surprised Craig and I don’t know the reason but there is one think I want to say about the Yanks, they are a bloody lucky blocks cause they have everything right in their feet!
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Ethernet has nothing to do with usb! It's an alternative for connecting the pc to the motion controller. The ESS has the same function as the UC100 that I mentioned except it has an ethernet cable rather than USB. It's also about twice the price. Whether you need the additional performance is doubtful in a hobby machine, as I mentioned I've found the uc100 works fine. Whichever you choose you also need a BoB between the motion controller and the drives. The uc100 is more compact than the ess which is about the size of a typical BoB.
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Hi,
the UC100 is not a patch on an ESS.
Firstly its about USB verses Ethernet, Ethernet wins hands down in latency and noise immunity.
The UC100 maxes out at 100kHz whereas an ESS is good to 4Mhz, that is 40 times faster!.
The UC100 has 17 IOs whereas an ESS has 51 IOs, that is three times more.
Whether you need the additional performance is doubtful in a hobby machine,
A UC100 could not hope to run my mill, I require a pulse output rate to the servos of 416.66kHz. I have
21 digital inputs, nine for limits and homes, one for a probe, one for an Estop and five for a wired pendant.
The remaining five inputs are alarms, one for each axis. I have 10 differential outputs for up to five axes,
two outputs for the spindle, one of those is PWM and another output for the coolant pump, and one output
as an Enable commoned to all axes.
That's a total of 35 IOs....but that's OK I've still got 16 IOs in reserve
The ESS has arguably the most complete Mach4 plugin with realtime supports for backlash comp, single
point lathe threading, spindle PID, realtime plasma torch height control. The UC100 misses on all of those
features. The manufacturer of the UC100, CNCDrive, is naturally more interested in promoting their own
software rather than Mach and so it dubious that the UC100 will ever have a competing Mach plugin.
The UC100 is 80Euro or $89USD. The ESS is $190USD, so is indeed about twice the price but the ESS
is SO much more than double the motion control solution.
Craig
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Very impressive to see all the equipment you guys have but I gradually I understand the use of a UC100 and ESS and have not decided yet which way to go.
I still don’t understand this. If I use lets say ESS with a Gecko G540 which has built in drivers and BOB would I still need another BOB?
BTW John my “titchy” drive motor it is indeed titchy but when I used it in the past I was surprised with its performance. In addition it was as quite as a water cooled spindle and that alone tops it all. It all depends I guess what we expect from a spindle: I remember I sold that CNC to a local artisan and he was very happy with the machine but when I met him a couple of years later he told me that he replaced the motor with a heavy router because he was working a lot with oak and that motor was struggling. I asked what he did with the old motor and he said it just sits in my shop. Finally I bought it from him for $120 (I paid for that, the Taig spindle + the 90VDC motor $500) and now I will use it in my new CNC.
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Hi,
If I use lets say ESS with a Gecko G540 which has built in drivers and BOB would I still need another BOB?
No, unless you want to. A UC100 has 17 IOs, arranged identically to a single parallel port. That means you've only got five
inputs, if you want more ....to bad...its not going to happen with a UC100, and there is no expansion option.
An ESS has three parallel port outputs. One you would use with a G540, but if you wanted you could put a BoB or even two BoBs
into ports 2 and 3 for extra IO, if you want it. So the ESS has the same 17 IOs via a G%$) BUT can be expanded with one or two
C10 BoBs at $23.00 each.
Craig
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So in the end if you want fast pulsing and loads of I/O then the ESS is great. All I'm saying is that the UC100 was a fast and easy upgrade and outperforms the PP, and supports all the I/O that I use on my lathe and mill. I have used it with both Win XP on my old PC and now on Win 10, no issues with installing the plugin.
Your mileage may vary.
On the spindle question, my mill uses a Baldor motor similar to the Taig with a KBE speed control; lathe has a 3/4 hp 3-phase with VFD. No evidence of any interference from either with the USB connection - on the lathe there's about 1.5m cable, on the mill a metre.
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Thanks for the help,
At this stage I don’t know if I will have a 3 or 4 axes on my new CNC, most likely it will be 4 so 5 only inputs looks kind of tight (limit/home switches for each axis + estop + spindle control + something new….). Better go for ESS which will provide extra IO’s for any future expansion.
Since I’m new to CNC controllers (the ones without printer cable) I think that ESS means Ethernet SmoothStepper. Is the SmoothStepper a brand name or you can have Ethernet controller / connection with other names? To put it in another way if I get a quote which says “Controller with Ethernet Connection” is this the same as ESS?
Lots of questions guys and it may sound silly but if I don’t know I must make sure I understand what I’m going to buy.
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Hi,
ESS= Ethernet SmoothStepper manufactured by Warp9TD.
https://warp9td.com/ (https://warp9td.com/)
They used to make a USB connected device, the USS, but is now out of manufacture. It was smaller and less powerful and would not run plasma tables due to noise,
so you don't really want one anyway.
Craig
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I run a 4th, rotary, axis with the uc100 on my mill. Limit switches aren't an issue on that.
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Was thinking to upgrade/buy new Mach license from Mach3 I now have to Mach4
Do you know how much and if Mach4 is much different from Mach3?
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You don't NEED to buy a new licence, the one you have will work just fine if you download the last version of M3 062.034 as I said early on in this thread. On the other hand M4 is supported which is a bonus and probably better for the future.
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I think Mach4 is available in various licenses vs Mach3 which has all in one pack (mill, lathe, plasma and perhaps more). How much we are talking about to run my CNC (mill)?
I also remember I had a heck of a time to learn Mach3 and a member on this forum (Hood), provided the best help I could ever had. Is there a steep curve to learn Mack4?
I understand I don’t have to buy Mach4 but I like to have and learn newest technologies and if the cost is reasonable I may go for it. Remember Mach3 in earlies 2000 cost me a hefty US$ 160.00.
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Well the prices are on the NFS website.
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I understand this John but after I pay $200 for the license do I have access to all (mill, lathe, plasma)? I read somewhere that for each machine you need a special license which cost more (think was $60) and that’s why I asked the question here. So it is $200 + more for a mill?
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It says that the licence is specific to a computer which I think is the same as for Mach3. But if the same computer runs different versions (non-concurrently) it may be fine. But ask NFS support or sales, they should be able to give you a definitive answer.
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Hi,
I understand this John but after I pay $200 for the license do I have access to all (mill, lathe, plasma)? I read somewhere that for each machine you need a special license which cost more (think was $60) and that’s why I asked the question here. So it is $200 + more for a mill?
No, you are confusing UCCNC which costs an extra $60 for every installation. Mach4Hobby costs $200USD, a one time only purchase. It can be used
on up to five different and distinct PCs concurrently. Mach4Hobby covers all machine types, mills, lathes etc, no add-ons required.
As John has pointed out a Mach4Hobby license is specific to each PC. When licensing a new PC you submit the MAC (unique PC identifier code) to the
NFS Licensing page and it issues the license files specific to that PC. If you no longer require a given PC be licensed you can release it, and license
another instead. You are allowed seven such transactions in two years.
All-in-all Mach4Hobby licensing is pretty generous but not open slather like Mach3. There are now probably many more pirate copies of Mach3 out there
than genuinely licensed ones. Can NFS be blamed for discontinuing Mach3 development given that there are so many pirate copies from which they can
derive no income?
Craig