Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach3 under Vista => Topic started by: ynneb on February 04, 2007, 04:35:33 AM
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For those who have been living under a rock, Microsoft has recently released its new operating system to replace XP.
From what I have read in many places, most people are giving it negative reviews. While it does have some advantages, these are heavily out weighed by its negatives.
What do you think ?
You may pick two selections if you want.
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I don't think anybody should be allowed remote access to users computers for any reason. According to what I have read Vista wont install unless you let Microsoft snoop at will.
Graham.
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I think remote assist is a great tool if both parties are aware and want to use it. I have been on both ends of remote assist, giving and receiving. I had a friend in the UK tutor me on a program via remote assist and Skype. Another friend down under helps me all the time, they have taught me a lot those two jokers have. ;D I have also got to help others with remote assist. You can cover so much ground quickly. ;) However, if it is to be set so that Microsoft can come and go freely in and out of my PC without me knowing it, H_ _ L NO >:(.
Graham, do you have any links to the info about remote access?
Brett
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The bit I read was on CNCZone, some IT bloke was having a real good rant about it, its all in the end user licence that MS can come and go as they please.
I will have a look for it later and post the link.
Graham.
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Sorry it was not CNCZone it was Yahoo, here is a link,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/68619
I have been looking for more detail , none yet, when I have it I will tell you.
Graham.
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It's clear there are many people that like to bash Microsoft and people love to scream the sky is falling.
First, I have two machines running Mach 3 on windows XP. There is no need to change the OS and I have no plans to.
I did just upgrade my office machine. If you want to load Vista make sure there are drivers for your hardware and you are
running a pretty new machine with a fast processor and lots of memory. A basic $500 machine is not going to cut it. Then
be ready to update the rest of your software (Virus protect, CD burner, Office, ...).
So far it has been a simple upgrade with no issues. We will see after a few more weeks of use.
Steve
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Vista is an important upgrade and for a great many reasons. The most oustanding being that in the coming 2-3 years support for XP (sp2) will diminish below a point where users may find it not feasible to contend with.
I have this problem with Windows2000. The HCL (hardware compatability list) just keeps getting shorter and shorter as devices enter the market.
XP is quite a bit faster than 2000. Similarly, the Vista kernel is more advanced and more efficient than XP meaning that it's faster than XP.
Just look at SolidWork's example; they've worked closely with Microsoft over the past 4 years so that they could integrate WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) 3D features into their softwares.
This 3D stuff in Vista is really awesome stuff and helps pave the way 3D object modeling for all. Designers, CAD, and CAM communities are the first to truly benefit from it.
Sure Vista is new and has features that some won't appreciate... but it has been 5 years since the last release and Vista is now the current version.
Good, bad, or indifferent it's time to embrace the future!
-Haik
btw - I've been using Vista (Ultimate) on a Desktop machine and a laptop with great results.
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I am a 15 year veteran software engineer. The truth is that Microsoft software is a hulking obsolete giant at it's core, with lots of pretty visual/audio media skin deep. If Microsoft came into existence today as a new company and presented Vista to the software engineering world as a new Operating System, Microsoft would be laughed off the planet and not given a second thought. If you ever get a chance to run an operating system that's a true technical marvel (such as Linux), you'll discover straight away how faster your computer really is without XP's hulking boat anchor at it core weighing it down. The fact is that Microsoft survives because their marketing group successfully schemes to maintain a near monopoly in the world of operating systems-- their success categorically has nothing to do with technical superiority.
That said, I currently run Windows XP (as opposed something like Linux) because I'm forced to since Microsoft maintains the near monopoly and there are so few applications for other operating systems. Then, I'll run Vista after it's been out for about a year-- because I'll be forced to.
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I recently bought a new system and it came with XP 64 which is the precursor to Vista... it was fine as an OS but it wasnt compatable with almost all of our peripherals and software so we tried Vista to see if it would be better, *Big Sigh* not much. Our peripherals were supported but only in the most basic form, none of the nice features that you bought the hardware for. And to top it all off our design software which is only a year old would not even install on it... so my feeling is it was very very pretty, and in the future I can see it being perhaps a bit better but the lack of support NOW really is shoddy.
My two and a half cents!
Mike
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I bought a new laptop for one of the guys at work, it had vista home premium on it for 10 days, it now has XP home on it, nothing would run on it, every time we tried to install something it told us it was not the correct version and would not run correctly, the 'do you know what you are doing screens got on his wick, it would have cost us hundreds in updates if we could have got them.
The laptop is now running at twice the speed (if not more) and all our existing software runs. Vista is a joke at the moment, and will be for a long time to come. Never again.
By the way, Dell has gone back to XP on its computers as sales dropped so rapidly.
Graham.
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Yup That pretty much sums up my experience! :D I used to get offended by the Mac commercials with the Mac and PC talking. The really scary thing is the ones about Vista are so on the money! It asks you about everything!
Mike
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Every time someone wants to post a "which is better MS or ?" or what do you think about MS this or that program. We all get into this heavy offense and defense of the windows product line. I will go back and get my printed pages of all of you bashing the ********* out of windows XP and rub it in your collective faces. I will get every paper about why the current flavor of Linux is better than the last flavor and why its better than windows.
If your a true low level coding expert I would say a few things you have not thought of. 1. Who is it exactly that you call when your free Ubuntu is crashing and you cannot get your 4 applications (not many more ever made) to work? 2. Which of you will stand up and tell me the name of the company they work at or have been to that has gone 75% or more to Linux? even in the server side?
Linux lovers why dont you run a real linux and install MAC/OS? oh wait cause it too is bloatware. Now here is the funny thing about bloatware. Your grandmom can use it with little difficulty at the moment it turns on. You think grandma and grandpa are going to flip on the KDE shell and ge to working? Also I program in 11 languages for everything from Windows and Linux/MAC OS to the web. Know which platform has the best tools for this? Yep its not Linux or Mac. ITS WINDOWS the relavance of the version your on is stupid. You based win2k then you bashed WinXP now you bash Vista but you too will run it and you to will Bash Windows ?? operating system in the future once you see or hear of it the first time.
Get off your soap box get back to work or get a job whatever applies and use what O/S you want. But dont think for a minute that I cant hack your linux box or that your machine is faster to get your productivity done cause your wrong.
just my 2 O/S'es worth!
Coog
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Hi mhdale,
About "It (Vista) asks you about everthing"... This is just a feature (named: UAC) and is easily turned off. If you feel you don't want the feature and do turn it off you'll have an unobstructed "XP'ish" experience.
See my post for full details: http://www.artsoftcontrols.com/forum/index.php?topic=2385.msg23290#msg23290
All,
I too use several OS brands and versions in a given work week, and I write both managed and unmanaged code. Microsoft, Mac, Linux, etc... Whatever?! These are the tools we have at our disposal; choose the best tool for your job and rock-it! OS is less often the culprit compared to code running that makes illegal calls and throws unhandled exceptions. I think many problems can be avoided when software authors have good test practices and create (test) harnesses and tools that exercise their code so the user/customer and the OS they're using doesn't have to. Speaking for myself, I'm accountable for all the code I ship.
Fun stuff, eh? :-)
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Hbaba, Yes, like most things in windows there is usually a quick and simple way to turn it off, that is for the psuedo technically savvy. And coogrr you are absolutely right, Everybody bashes the new OS when it comes out, and to be truthful every time a new OS comes out it allways has some issues. My big beef is specifically with the marketing people and the strategies they use to drive the consumer product machine, and in this I think microsoft is as guilty as all the rest, if not more so. (My pet Peeve is that the best printer I have ever owned has limited function under Vista and X64 and HP doesnt plan on updating the drivers, I think because it was too good for the money! And they dont seem to offer a comparable product anymore.)
And while I also agree that software SHOULD be purchased, the price on this new wondrous O/S is pretty steep, makes it very difficult for the small independant builder to compete when you pay as much for your O/S as you do for your hardware. The line between O/S core functionallity and unecessary junk has become very blurry. My extra 3 cents worth...
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I'm sure everyone is familiar with Microsoft's manner of doing things. But if you look a little deeper and read some documentation of how they went about writing the programming for Vista, you will see that it is a far superior opperating system then anything in existance today. They have reworked alot of the processes they use to display data and processes information. Of course, everything isn't going to work for it yet. But is that any reason to stay stuck in the past. Life is about growth and progression, and this is where we're going. So keep up, is my opinion. I have used and abused Vista to a great degree. The problems all have ways to get around until fixed. The service pack is coming soon (in Microsoft time). And as far as the remote assist, it has helped me fix many problems. It may ask you for permission a little much, but its a small price to pay. Oh and I don't feel like paying money for something that looks like crap. Bout time someone made something that looks decent. (does some cool little tricks too)
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Its one thing to re-vamp the inside of an OS, and I agree 100% with everything you have said, but if you had 20K worth of software that you need to do you job which doesnt like to run on Vista I am sure you would be reluctant to switch as well. Granted anyone with a subscription or who is willing to "update" thier software suites will probably be happier for it, in the interm, in this instance (First time ever I might add) I am holding back. I DO have a quation for those who are using vista in a mixed environment, are there any issues with Win XP Pro and Vista getting along on the same network shaing files?
Cheers
Mike
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I'll not be changing to Vista any time soon, not because I don't like MS OS's but because everyone I've talked to had said they have had problems and that it's not got anything that helps them get the jobs done any better than XP.
I liked 2000 better than XP but XP had quite a few items that were better/easier so I changed, it works and that's all I wanted it to do, I'm not interested in fancy graphics and twerly images etc, I want to do a job and I want to do it with the minimum of hastle.
Also to make an OS that doesn't work with peoples older equipment is plain stupid.
Steve
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I have recently discovered that Vista doesnt have native COM support. I am not sure I understand it exactly but it sounded like com support in Vista is only supported by third party drivers as in a sweeping statement along the same lines as "Nobody would even need more than 640K of Memory" Serial ports are not used by any devices any more. I have had a great deal of difficulty getting my new laptop which came with Vista to talk properly to a Servo Drive unit using a USB to Serial Adapter. I have tried several they all seem to want to use the Prolific Com driver but my info gets all garbled. Does anyone have any experience with Vista and a USB to Serial Device that works reliably? Any Tips/tricks to getting it to function? My Searches have shown a remarkable number of bad experiences with Vista and USB to Serial does anyone have some good ones?
Mike
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mhdale,
I think you just need to find a USB-Serial adapter with Vista drivers. A quick search turned up the following (searched for 'usb to serial Vista'):
http://www.usbgear.com/computer_cable_details.cfm?sku=USB2-4COM-M&cats=199&catid=199%2C469
http://www.cooldrives.com/usbtors9miad.html
I'm sure there are loads of others. Drivers are one of the big problems with Vista, not because of Vista, but because many drivers stink, and many companies don't believe in getting with the program and providing updated (and well written) drivers.
I just upgraded to a Vista laptop and can't, for-the-life-of-me ,understand all the hand wringing and belly aching some folks are doing about Vista. The install is easy, don't like UAC, turn it off. My biggest hurdle was finding/downloading/installing the video driver.
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I've been a software engineer for nearly 20 years and run most systems at home (XP, Linux, BSD + a few more that most people have never heard of and I've written a few myself).
I've followed the development of Vista for over 10 years. Truth be told, there is very little fundamental difference amongst OSs. Most of what people think of an operating system is just some GUI interface running on top of a kernel (the real operating system), although MS sticks much of the GUI within the kernel (from what I understand) to improve performance. This also has the side effect of lowering security, stability, etc.
XP and Vista broke with MS's preceding offerings by running on top of a preemptable spatially protected kernel. This means that each program can only communicate with another by going through the kernel. It also means that when one application crashes, it doesn't, can't, affect any other application. This is hardware supported by all modern CPUs after the 386/486, 68020, PPC, MIPS, etc.
I recently purchased a new laptop with Vista and am highly unimpressed. I've only used it for a weekend really only use it for web surfing, but have seen nothing compelling for it. This has been argued for a couple of years as MS's weakness - that given XP runs on a secure kernel, albeit with a brain dead security model, what is really the point of upgrading? This is a serious problem for MS to keep a revenue stream going.
EVERYTHING that I have seen with Vista so far is cosmetic and could have been accomplished quite simply under XP with minor changes. The new security really isn't and in a few published reports still lags behind Apple and Linux. Apple by the way is UNIX - one of the 3 or 4 officially certified UNIX vendors.
The next version of Windows (where have you heard that before) is expected to be significantly different but moving everything out of the kernel except for the required stuff like memory management and tasking, but this is in the kernel, something that only programmers ever see. The part that most people consider the OS, the GUI, is really mostly kernel agnostic. Without too much difficulty one could run XP (or Vista) on the Linux or BSD (what OSX runs on atop) kernels.
So in the end, my impression after a week, and I'm hoping it will change, is that it's just another marketing gimmick to force people to upgrade as it will be ever so slightly incompatible with previous releases.
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So to recap, you have found that Vista 'works' pretty much like XP, in that there are no drastic changes to the UI to hamper usability. And, in your opinion, that shows that is is just fluff?
Why not take a few minutes and actually do a bit of research into what IS new in Vista, before rambling on in ignorance? Not trying to pick a fight, it just kills me when people offer opinions on things they are ignorant of. I would suggest starting with http://channel9.msdn.com/, and then searching MSDN for whitepapers, etc.
Again, don't take me wrong, I'm not being mean, you seem like your probably a smart guy. Take some time, do a bit of research, and form an intelligent opinion on the matter. If you still find yourself not liking Vista, than great :)
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I never said that I did not like it, just that I found it, for what I use it for to be unimpressive.
I work with half a dozen application programs and don't really "use the OS". Most of the world is moving online making the "OS" mostly irrelevant. We probably have different definitions of OS.
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I just checked out the MS Vista page at http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/seeit/default.mspx and see very little that could not be done in XP and are things that I've had in other systems for years.
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Windows has always been bloatware. Microsoft tries to make an operating system that does everything for everybody -- whether they want it to or not. So as the new versions come out, the computer is forced by default Windows installation to run a whole bunch of routines just in case someone might want to use them. For XP you are advised to stop many of the processes that Windows want to run at startup if you want to run Mach. I set up my mill on a 1GHz computer running Windows 2000 and I disabled as much of the unnecessary processes as I could. It is a very clean machine. The thing I like about it is it works. It doesn't crash. Mach 3 runs without a hitch. Windows 2000 is much less encumbered by crapware than XP. Why would anyone even want to run an OS any more complicated than Win 2K? In my opinion, running anything else on a CNC controlling computer is a serious mistake and the computer should be dedicated to running the CNC machine. As far as Vista is concerned, it is trying to do things we don't need even more than XP. Another thing that makes Win 2K attractive is it doesn't require the Windows activation. It installs much cleaner than XP. There is no advantage I can think of to using a Windows version newer than 2K if you are dedicating the computer to a CNC machine. Vista is another of Microsoft's attempts to please all the people all the time and in that attempt they have opted to run an overabundance of processes that most of the people will never use and these processes only serve to hijack computer resources and possibly conflict with what you really want to do. I recently put together a Vista computer because I need to test my products to make sure they run on Vista. I find Vista to be very annoying, much like the way I found XP to be annoying until I learned how to trim it up. So far, there is nothing about Vista that appeals to me enough to make me want to use it for everyday computing over XP. For CNC I say keep it simple and run Win 2K on a dedicated machine. Oh yeah, and whatever OS you use don't connect to a LAN or the internet with your CNC machine while you are CNCing.
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I have a question, will mach3 run on a mac computer? and if so what are the requirments?
Thanks Ron
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Answer 1: No, it will not run on a Mac
Answer 2: The requirements are to buy a PC :)
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Answer 1: No, it will not run on a Mac
Answer 2: The requirements are to buy a PC :)
But the good news is that you don't need a brand new expensive PC. A computer with a 1GHz processor runs Mach quite well and you can probably find one used for dirt cheap or even free from friends or relatives that are buying a new, faster one. I use a 1GHz Dell that I got for $75 from Boeing Surplus (before they closed their retail store).
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Thanks Jeff. but I have three PC's was just a question
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You should start out with a fresh install of Windows. There is an optimization guide available under the download tab on this site. It will tell you how to install Windows without the power saving features being turned on and give you other optimization tips as well.