Machsupport Forum
G-Code, CAD, and CAM => LazyCam (Beta) => Topic started by: britishrich on July 29, 2009, 03:19:11 PM
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Hello folks.
I have free LCAM.
When I join primitives it doesn't seem to actually change anything....?
I am trying to join chains/entities that do not need to be separate.
I have tried adjusting the optimize/import connection tolerane but the result could be a lot better...
Any advice?
(can I even do that in FREE LCAM?)
Thanks,
Rich
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RICH,
Go to the Members Docs, there is a manual there for Lazycam. It will provide you with a lot
of how to quicky. You can join items selected on the screen, right mouse click in display area invokes a fly out,
join selected items.
I suggest you look at and understand the concepts presented as that will make your learning curve much quicker.
If you can't find what you want to know in the manual, post / complain to the writer! >:D
BTW some menus associated with the modules only work if you have a llicense.
The manual assumes you have a license, and as such dosen't talk about a non-lic version.
Oh,I like your name as it reminds me of someone special, ;)
RICH
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Thank Rich.
I jut looked over that PDF for Primitive, Joining etc and it doesn't mention much other that "click it and they join" LOL
So I guess it's just a Licensed function.
Looks like it's gona cost me $75 to acquire that function LOL
Oddly enough I like your name too!
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;D
Ok, will bitch to the writer and have a little more added to the manual! ;D
PS: i DON'T KNOW IF YOU NEED A LICENSE TO THE JOINING THOUGH!
It mainly only has to do with generating code and using the more advanced features.
RICH
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I have found I can do EVERYTHING else I need without the licensed version. Just this one niggling thing left.
Although being more thorough with my CAD drafting is a good habit it has forced upon me LOL
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Hmm,
I am not sure if you can join entities if they are in different layers or chains. I know you can add a chain to another, can't move an entity to another layer...i think. Where your mouse pointer is / what side or quadrant will affect how the implementation is done, doing this from memory.
So the manual should define the level of what you can / can't do, but, thought it was in there somwhere.
RICH
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Lets assume I am working on one layer.
Adding chains together is what I am really trying to do.
So perhaps I am doing it wrong by trying to join the primitives but I am not aware of any tool or button for joining chains?
I couldn't find anything in the manual about this.
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Hi, Rich
Check what your Setup, Load Options, Connection Line Tol. is set to, If it's set to .001 or .0001, try setting it to .01 and reload the DXF file.
It may help in joining the Chain/segment's together, If it doesn't help post the dxf will look at it.
Chip
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I just tried .01 nd there was no improvement. I had already tried .001-.004 with little change.
That's why I figured I'd have to do it manually as LCAM just isn't getting it.
I'll post the DXF later, thanks :)
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Thanks Chip you jogged my memory.
LC does have "tolerance issues" and any other program for that matter. Now I remember the testing done
in LT and that's what prompted appendix "B".
Simply summarized, quality CAD work cannot be over stated.
A anology would be like telling Mr Connect to find a triangle with lines and give them to you. The lines are branches of a big tall oak tree. Mr Connect looks at the big tree and asks, "Which branch's on the tree make up the triangle?", you reply , over there. Frustrated, Mr Connect cuts the tree down and tells you..... there's the triangle. You look at the mess on the ground and can't find the branches and wish they were tied togeter.
Good CAD= few problems =better LC import= easier use of this or any other software.
Paint programs are not CAD programs.
Not all DXF's are equal.
Eliminate problems rather than fix the ones you created after the fact.
The apple won't fall far from the tree. ???
RICH
BTW: Chip , off to see the trees in the moutains, keep up the good work of watering the forest!
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I do have a good CAD (same as used by at least one machine shop I know), and I have been back and re-done every snap to be sure, and grouped everything that should cut as one line too etc
It did help, but I won't be happy until it's perfect and Lcam can't quite get there no matter how thorough my drafting is LOL
So, does anyone know if manually connecting primitives works at all?
Rich, you mentioned "joining chains"...how are you doing that?
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Hi, Rich
Post an example of your problem dxf.
LazyCam should re-order your chains best it can from the origin marker position with Optimize button, Doing insides cut's then outsides But in the end it should post the code from the top to bottom as listed in the Project Tab, Chain # can be moved around to your preference of cut.
Chip
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RICH,
Yes, manually connecting entities does work when done within a chain, and the tolerance setting has an impact on it.
Text is a PITA. Because of how the text is created / manipulated in CAD, exported, and then looked at by LC from a maching point of view. I will post something which hopefully will get my point accross on this. Will use one of your DXF files that you posted for the sign.
Later today if i get a chance.
LC is not a CAD program. LC is an importer which prepares the imported file for machining tasks. Big difference in those two lines. That's my understanding from experience.
RICH
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I know it is not CAD, and I have already messed with the tolerance to the Nth degree. I have cleaned up the original CAD etc more than once too.
If Lcam still won't get it then I guess I am SOL
Unfortunately I cannot post the DXF as it is a proprietary design and I'd be in breach of contract to disclose it.
When I try and pull out one of the specific shapes that is the problem it works fine in Lcam on it's own....
So...I guess next question is, If I am gonna go spend some money any recommendations of a program to use in place of Lcam that is reasonably priced?? That is perhaps better at connecting lines or has a better manual tool to do so?
(less bugs would be awesome too)
Thanks
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Can you mimic the part in some way that is not working. I undersatnd the proprietary design stuff.
Can't help you if you can't give me something to work with.
Example of "joining two entities" is as follows.
Select one entity and then select anther entity, both are highlighted in the display area, Right mouse click in the screen area, flyout appears, and select join entities. They are then joined. Sort of like doing a zero radiused chamfer in CAD.
RICH
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I'll try and re-create it, but its been a pain so far...when I pull out the problem shape on it's own and put it back in Lcam it works fine! But not part of the larger design...
As for joining the entities that is what I have done as described above. Makes NO difference to how it cuts the chains though...I am TRYING to joing to entities from the ends of SEPARATE adjacent chains, therefore joinging the chains, but I guess it doesnt work like that ;(
And I haven't seen or heard of any way to join whole chains...
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For joining chains, you select the chain, it is highlighted in the display, you click the "Move Chain" command on the left, ooop's Right I think >:D
A flyout gives you the option of a mouse move or exact x & y distance. You can measure the X & Y distance using the Extents tab and watch the change in the mouse pointer location. This is a poor way to move chains. If you want a machining task you shouild do it in CAD and not use LC.
SEE PAGE 15 IN THE MANUAL, ALSO PAGE 20 FOR THE EXTENTS TAB, PAGE 86 TO SEE JOINING LINES.
RICH
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Can't join entities which are in separate chains. Think of it this way, a separate chain for a square and a triangle, you import and LC thinks, ok he wants to machine the square and then maybe the triangle, hey waite a minute i can 't let him machine one entity of the triangle along with the square, that dosn't make sense, so not allowed.
RICH
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So can I re-ask my other question of alternatives to LCAM I can purchase?
Evidently I need a tool capable of thinking beyond geometric shapes and do what I tell it to! LOL
I'd rather just buy a program and move on from this tiny issue that is a huge headache....
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I will not suggest any in particular as prices really vary and suggest you try others out, see what will fit your needs,
make sure you are happy with it, and certainly wish you luck. :)
RICH
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Thanks Rich :)
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OH BOY a gaggle of rich's, (;-)
Let me see if I understand what it is you need to do. ARE you trying to take a line that is made up of many points and create one line with a beginning point and end point eliminating the point in between?
A drawing woul d be a great help. It can be of anything, create one to show what you mean.
Not many CAMS rework "your" drawing entities they work with how you draw it. With CAD, don't always believe the snaps snap true, most have a tolerance setting and it gets as close as the tolerenace setting says to.(;-) SOme can only get close at best.
(;-0 TP
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Hey guys :)
So, here is a crude representation of the problem as I see it and how I want it to be...
Thanks
PS - The correct term is a "Herd of Rich's" ;D
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Most times when I see what you describe I can trace it BACK to a bad drawing. Repair the drawing and the problems go away(;-) I have never seen Lcam break a chain where there was no problem. But I have probably not seen everthing in Lcam(;-) If the drawing is really inmportant I usally Join the parts as a polyline that issues a very tight tolerance (.000) and insures a joined Chain.
ALSO you can repair the chains in LCAM(move or join), you can reorder the chains as well if you do not like the order.
I just tested it so I know it works HERE.
(;-) TP
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Britishrich,
You can't join enties which are not in the same chain. There is a setting in the SETUP MENU, connection line tolerance that you can set. If you go up in the tolerance ( like .001 to .3) it will then use that setting when importing, to think that any line within that distance should be connected so it will include it in the created chain.
See attached PDF and file to fool with.
Now this is a double edged sword, since if you have a lot different machining on your drawing, it can cause problems elsewhere. But then you wouldn't do that because you would set up your drawing based on how you want to machine the piece ( in the manual ).
Now just before you go off to try that $1500 Mill program, well i did with this drawing, and it failed bitterly, becuase it's "importer" didn't know what to do with them either. Of course it sends you off to the CAD program to define what you want, split it up, or fix it up.
Hope this helps,
The poor RICH ;)
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I know my CAD is as "snapped" as it is capable of and I have messed with the tolerance no end, so what I have is as goos as it's getting then.
To Vmax's comment please see he rest of the thread to see my "success" with joining LOL
Thanks
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EVEN IF the cad does not do well, IN Lcam you can fix most simple things that are not critical to the part. Now iIF the part tolerance does NOT allow fudging then it must be corrected in CAD and then brought back in to post.
Sorry but that is just the way it works, (;-) TP
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Rich,
Are the two lines /entities ,part of the same chain ( the shape which is made up of the individual lines / entities) ?
Yes or NO?
RICH
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Rich, No.
That is the problem. What LCAM is determining as a chain does not agree with what I think is a chain and what my CAD is telling me should be a chain.
Vmax, I appreciate the input but we seem to be going round in circles a bit on the CAD part. My CAD is as tight as the program is going to allow me to get it (I do not have access to snap tolerance settings etc). Therefore there is nothing for me to go back and fix (or at least it's not possible for me to).
I did re-do my CAD since I started this thread and that did help a lot, but not 100%.
Thus resulting in my conclusion that this is as good as I can get it, and the CAD is likely the culprit if LCAM is as infallable as this thread suggests.
Where you say "you can repair the chains in LCAM(move or join)"
How do you JOIN chains? I think I asked that before after Rich mentioned it but I don't see an anwser anywhere about HOW to join chains in LCAM and that IS what I would like to do.
I have tried tolerances in LCAM from 0.0001 to 0.01.
So it seems I have exhausted all venues with my current set up, esp as Rich is now going to remind me again that I cannot join entities from separate chains (see, I am paying attention Rich LOL)
Thanks
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Have you downloaded the manual ?
IF you will provide a simple dxf of an example of what you consider as a problem then I will take it and use it as the example to see if Lcam can do exactly as you want.
It works here as best I can understand what you want(;-) I have taken broken chains and reconnected them in several different ways.
(;-) TP
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Here is an Lcam project file of what I perceive you want. It is about what you provide as an example previously. Four chains unconnected and you want to connect them all and make one chain correct.
Please verify.
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I have the manual and so far I cannot see a section that tells me how to connect chains and I searched through the sections containing the word "chain" one by one
When I remove a problem set of chains and optimize them in a separate file LCAM works great. But it won't recognize the same lines in the same way if I optimize the entire design at once...
I'll do some more tinkering over the weekend and see if I can see what I am missing in the steps you guys are suggesting.
Ever spend so much time looking at this stuff you can't see the woods for the trees sometimes??
LOL
Thanks guys...
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Rich,
Lets talk chains......
In CAD you would define a particular machining step, and can put it on an individual layer/ level ( depends on
what CAD program you are using). I can can't speak for the "100" different CAD programs out there. Now you export the drawing out ( not all CAD programs are created equal nor are their exporting capabilities). Now LC imports the file based on the CAD provided info. LC has some capabilites to fix minor stuff, like a tolerance issue, but i will say that 90% of problems will be on the drawing side! Remember, you will not give me a drawing to look at!
You can't really join chains in LC, but you can move a chain from one spot to another, accurately or roughly, and delete a rapid between them, thus they are now connected ( look at the generated code). in the manual. That's not the way to do it, since it's easier to use CAD to do it. Why do you want to join chains if you thought out the machining process before hand and all is ok before you start?
LC is an importer, not a CAD program ( think i have that in the manual 10 times ), and provides for defining the machining to be applied at the chain or layer level.
Is LC infallable?
No it is not, and neither is any other program out there. DXF issues, read the appendix in LazyTurn if you want to have a better understanding
So you have a number of interfaces, namely: CAD as prepared for a dxf, the DXF creation, the import of the the DXF,
and the interpretation of the information as applied to machining. Along with the above you have some "variables" that can adjust, within some reason, what happens along the way. So no excuses here, but you got to admit it can get complex.
RICH
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"When I remove a problem set of chains and optimize them in a separate file LCAM works great. But it won't recognize the same lines in the same way if I optimize the entire design at once..."
The better you define to LC how you want to machine something the more success you will have with LC or any other program. See page 36, Tutorial #1 T1-Fig 4 "Why am I doing this"
RICH
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RICH/RICH , you can join chains and then reform then as one chain.
You can also join primitives from different chains and reform them as one chain. AND you can rejoin them back as they were(;-)
You can move one end of a chain to another location or the whole chain as a unit.
The power is there you just have to beat on it enough to find out WHAT it really can do.
(;-) TP
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RICH after 40+ years I still get lost in the forest and have to wait until the sun comes up to find my way out(;-)
(;-) TP
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Yep, i know what you mean, as i am still in the forest.
Thanks for the help.
RICH
BTW: There is one real tricky one on connecting two entities when the rapid is leaving the same spot as where you
want to join the entities, but as you have noted, if done in CAD correctly you won't have the problem.