Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: kolias on February 29, 2016, 10:59:08 AM
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Using a C10 BOB and pins 15 / 5V when I click the auto zero button on Mach3 my probe goes up 2” and then it stops.
The alligator clip is connected with a black wire to 5V pin with a 120 Ohms 1/4 Watt resistor between the clip and the 5V pin. The touch 3/8” aluminum plate is connected with a red wire to pin 15. In the ports & pins settings the probe uses pin 15 and the Active Low has a red X setting.
If I switch the wires, black to pin 15 and red to 5V, when I touch the plate to the router I get an Estop warning.
The C10 jumper for pins 10 to 15 is set to pull-down (pins 1-2) and everything is working well except for the probe. If I set them to pull-up my Estop does not work
The script I copy from the web is
Message( "Auto Zeroing..." )
If IsSuchSignal (22) Then
code "G31 Z-2 F20"
While IsMoving()
Wend
Call SetDRO( 2, .375 )
code "G1 Z1"
End If
What is wrong?
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What is wrong?
I'm afraid your wiring is incorrect and that code is rubbish.
Is this a mill or a router? (i.e. metal base or wood spoil board).
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Thanks stirling for the help, its an all aluminum consruction cnc router as per attached
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Does the probe LED light up when you touch the plate? You need to make sure that works first before running any script.
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That’s the first place I should have looked Gerry but never thought about it.
The only light ON in the diagnostic screen is the Enable1. I turned that ON because my motors were not working when I started my cnc a few days back and I thought that it must be ON. I had to call Keling for help to get my motors working and now they are working and when I jog any axis there in no light ON. I thought all axes lights should be ON
When I press the Estop the light comes ON and when I touch the alligator clip to the touch plate the green light comes ON
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BTW I would like to mention that I have used the C10 BOB before and never had to do any changes on the jumpers because it work. This time I was told to change the jumper for pins 2-9 (outputs) from pull-down to pull-up.
Perhaps that’s why I don’t have the motor lights on the Diagnostic screen?
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So just to be clear: if you touch the clip to the plate - you get a light?
If you connect the clip to the tool and touch that to the plate you don't get a light?
If that's the case (which I think it is) then as I said, your wiring's incorrect.
Why? - because unless your spindle has ceramic bearings (and even if it had) your tool is likely at ground potential.
connecting ground to an active high plate is not going to activate it.
The problem is that (according to your data sheet) pin15 is a "dedicated" input (page 7) with a fixed pull-down resistor. This means pin15 HAS to be set active high. That means that to work - your tool HAS to be insulated from ground. This is a really bad way to do this.
Use one of the configurable inputs (2-9) and set pullup and set it to active low. Then get rid of the 120R resistor and connect your clip to ground. Clip it on the tool and test by touching the TOOL to the plate.
THEN we'll deal with that useless code. ;)
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You are right stirling, connecting the clip to the tool and touch the tool with the plate I get no light.
We have -16C here and just turned up the heat in my garage, in about 1 hour I will go and change the wiring to what you said and will report the results
Thank you
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I was suspecting the results to be as I describe below but I had to do it
I disconnected the 2 wires from pins 15 / 5V removed the resistor and connected the red wire to pin 8 and the black to COM.
In the Mach3 settings changed the pin to 8 and active low red. Went to the diagnostic screen and touching the clip to a bolt near the tool the Estop lights up plus the 3 motors lights comes ON temporarily. Changing the Active low to green the results are the same
I think the reason is that the jumper for pins 2-9 has been changed from pull-down to pull-up. This happened last week when I first started the machine and my motors were dead and Keling told me to change this pin setting plus some dip switches on the motor drivers. Somehow I believe the pins 2-9 setting should be changed back to pull-down
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time to post your xml please kolias
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Here it is
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Decided to change the jumper on pins 2-9 from pull-up to pull-down but noticed no difference. Motors and Estop are working and when I touch the clip to the machine the Estop lights up on the diagnostic screen. I attach a snip of my diagnostic screen which shows no lights for the motors and I think I should have the motor lights ON
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According to your xml you only have the ONE parallel port. If that's the case you can't use pin 8 for an input.
You're already using inputs 10,12 and 13 so you'd need to change the probe input to either 11 or 15.
However there's a problem:
Ideally you want to set the input active low (and use a pull UP). But according to your BOB datasheet, page 7, that stupid BOB has all the dedicated inputs (10,11,12,13 and 15) hard wired to pull DOWNS. This means the ONLY option you have to activate these is active HIGH.
This is REALLY STUPID and makes tool setting impossible UNLESS you can somehow isolate the tool from ground.
That's why they have that REALLY STUPID diagram on page 11. i.e. THAT can only work if the tool is isolated which is practically NEVER going to be the case.
I'll have to think... time for drink here in the UK...
EDIT: just noticed you just posted again. Pins 2-9 are OUTPUTS - pullups/downs are meaningless on OUTPUTS. Please don't play without knowing what you're doing - you're going to blow something if you're not careful.
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Thanks stirling, enjoy your tea / Jin
It is strange because I used the same BOB and drivers / motors before and I had the probe working well with the same script / wiring as when I started this thread (black to clip and 5V with a resistor in between, red to pin 15). I don’t know what happened now.
I took a chance to change the jumper because that’s where it was before when my motors did not work.
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I found the attached probe wiring stirling on the web. Is it good for my BOB and if yes where do I get the ground to connect the alligator clip?
Can I take it to the earth ground?
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Thanks stirling, enjoy your tea / Jin
It is strange because I used the same BOB and drivers / motors before and I had the probe working well with the same script / wiring as when I started this thread (black to clip and 5V with a resistor in between, red to pin 15).
You'll just have to trust me on this. That is NOT the way to wire a tool for tool setting probe. If you say it worked then OK but it was by some strange quirk of luck that somehow your tool was isolated from ground. That is the ONLY way that could have "worked".
You don't have to trust me on the script though because after we get your touch off working I'll explain exactly why that script is a crock o' horse sh**.
Anyway - the diagram you just posted demonstrates nicely how to do things properly but as I've tried to explain - you have a problem trying to do that with YOUR BOB because the muppets that designed it, HARDWIRED pullDOWN resistors on the dedicated inputs.
See the 10K pullUP resistor on this diagram?
See the that the tool is clipped to GROUND?
See the pullDOWN on YOUR schematic?
See the tool connected to 5V on yours (albeit through a stupid series resistor who's only purpose is to stop a short if the tool actually IS connected to ground).
exactly as I've been trying to explain to you.
Compare it to your BOB manual (page 11) and hopefully you'll see the difference.
All we can try to do on your BOB is try to "over-power" your pullDOWN with a strong pullUP.
So please follow the above diagram EXACTLY except use your 120 ohm resistor instead of the 10K one in the diagram.
Then go to ports n pins and change your probe pin from 8 to 15. Leave it active low (green tick).
Then touch your plate to the tool and you should be good.
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You may not need it. I assume that your machine is grounded so the tool will be grounded through the spindle. But it's good practice to have a ground wire as shown which should go back to the star point ground in your electronics. The "copper board" of course should be printed circuit board, so the copper layer which is uppermost is normally insulated from ground until the grounded tool touches. I find that probing works fine through the machine ground.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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You may not need it. I assume that your machine is grounded so the tool will be grounded through the spindle. But it's good practice to have a ground wire as shown which should go back to the star point ground in your electronics. The "copper board" of course should be printed circuit board, so the copper layer which is uppermost is normally insulated from ground until the grounded tool touches. I find that probing works fine through the machine ground.
Not quite sure what you're referring to by "it" when you say "You may not need it".
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Not sure which ground to connect stirling. My BOB has one ground next to the power IN connectors. Is it ok to connect there or better to take it to my 120VAC earth ground?
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the one on the 3 screw power connector is fine or there's a couple more opposite on the 6 screw output connector.
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Thanks stirling, will take me about 30 min to do it
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It’s done and did not blow a fuse yet stirling, lol
But no good results. The digitize light is ON in the diagnostic screen and when I connect the clip to the tool and click on the Auto Tool Zero button on the Mach3 screen the motor goes click…click…click but does not move and on the status line below I get the message “Auto zeroing… Probe ignore activated at call for probe”
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Kolias - if I'm to help you I really need you to do what I ask and not what you fancy trying.
FORGET about running the macro for now. At NO point did I ask you to run the macro or press any buttons.
Are you connecting to pin15? are you remembering the 120R resistor? are you changing probe input in ports n pins from 8 to 15? is it set active low?
Go through the instructions again and please follow to the letter. Check and double check you have it EXACTLY.
Then touch your plate to the tool. Do not hit any buttons - do not run any macros - do not pass go - do not collect $200.
If it still doesn't work - please check the voltage between the tool and the plate and report back - it should be approx 4.8V
I thank you.
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Sorry stirling, all is done as per your instructions.
Setting my voltmeter at 20VDC scale I get 0.65 between the tool bracket and the touch plate. I get Nothing between the tool chuck and the touch plate
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Forgot to mention my router is a Bosch Colt variable speed router
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OK - clearly SOMETHING is not correct - this SHOULD be dead simple.
Can you do a good clear photo capturing your WHOLE BOB showing the resistor and your wiring please?
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Yes gime a few minutes but I dont think it will be clear because its a mesh with all wiring around
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Here are 2 pictures
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I can just make out a resistor connected at one end topin 15. What is the other end connected to?
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The clip is connected to a black wire and pin GND next to the power in connections. The plate is connected to a red wire and pin 15. from the 5V pin I connected the 120 Ohms resistor and spliced the other end to the red wire. So the resistor one end is into 5V pin and the other end is spliced to red wire
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Setting my voltmeter at 20VDC scale I get 0.65 between the tool bracket and the touch plate. I get Nothing between the tool chuck and the touch plate
I've just re-read this. Remember what I said earlier about doing what I asked and not what you fancied?
Where did I say test between the tool BRACKET and touch plate? Then WHERE did I say test between the tool CHUCK and the touch plate?
You've (hopefully) clipped the clip to the TOOL - yes? - so test between the TOOL and the touch plate please.
Then please test between the actual screw on input15 and the actual screw on the power connector GROUND.
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The clip is a small alligator clip and can only clip it to the head of a screw around the router mounting bracket. I will attach a wire on the clip and wrap it around the tool and the test between the tool and the bracket
Then I will test between the pin 15 and the GND where the black wire is connected. Will take me 10 minutes
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The clip is a small alligator clip and can only clip it to the head of a screw around the router mounting bracket.
Jeeze Kolias - you could have mentioned this before.
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Between the tool and plate now I get 0.51 and between pin 15 and GND I get 0.55.
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Sorry stirling for my mistakes, I know it is very frustrating and I thank you for your patience
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between pin 15 and GND I get 0.55.
Then pin15 is STILL being pulled to GROUND by the internal pull DOWN. This should NOT be happening because the 120 ohm resistor between pin15 and 5V should be stronger and thus pull UP to around 4.8V.
You effectively have pin15 at the centre tap of a potential divider of 120/4K7. That just HAS to give a reading of 4.8V between 15 and GROUND. If it doesn't then either the manual is wrong, your board is screwed, or physics doesn't apply in your neck of the woods.
The only thing I can suggest as a last try is to connect the resistor DIRECTLY between 5V and pin15 and then measure between GROUND and pin15.
In fact - while you're at it - can you also check the voltage between the 5V screw and GROUND screw?
Also - are you absolutely sure that resistor is 120 ohms?
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I will do what you say stirling, about the 120 Ohms resitor have no idea but the store clerk gave me a pack of 5 - it is blue color with black brown red stripes. I also have 10K, 1, 3.1, 3.3, 1K, 220 and 33 Ohms resistors if any of them is better
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Connect the resistor between 5V and pin 15. Volts between GND and pin 15 = 0.47
Volts between GND and 5V = 4.8 to 5.14
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first one is madness - second one sounds right.
re: your colour bands - those colours aren't correct for 120 but leave that for now...
OK - gotta go now - but you could try this just to establish the pin is working:
1) remove the resistor and the red and black wires completely.
2) with pin 15 set to active low - you should see the digitize LED on the diagnostics page lit.
3) Now change active low to active high (red cross) - you should now see the LED UN-lit.
4) now connect a wire directly between 5V and pin15. You should see the LED lit again.
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1) Resistor and black / red wires removed
2) pin 15 set to active low (green), LED is lit
3) Change to active high (red), LED is Un-lit
4) connect wire directly between 5V and pin 15, LED is lit again
Let me know stirling when you get a chance what's next
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so that's all good. The only thing not panning out is the pullUP resistor.
Please switch your meter to resistance and check that resistor.
gotta go (again)
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The meter shows a resistance of 121
Can I use a larger / smaller resistance from the ones i have?
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I can't see the point - 121 should pull up to around 4.8V and you're unable to read that so I'm lost I'm afraid. Also the 120 Ohms is already going to pull around 40mA when the pin is grounded.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to give up Kolias.
TBH though - I'd consider binning that BOB. The design IMO is complete crap. The way they suggest implementing tool touchoff on page 11/14 says it all for me.
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Well Gentlemen, I have been following with great interest and I think you may have given this it’s best shot. This self-same issue with the C10 BoB has, to my knowledge, come up twice in the past and neither time was it resolved in a satisfactory manner.
I really thought that the passive 120R would do the trick but it looks like an active solution – perhaps a simple inverter or opto-isolator may be required if the C10 is to be used (short of attacking the circuit board and removing the damn pull-down).
Overall, I think replacing the C10 with something better may be the way forward.
Tweakie.
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LOL - I wasn't aware this had cropped up before. (you held that one back Tweakie - you #@%$£) ;D
You're thinking along the same lines as me re: the active approach. However, for the life of me I can't see why the 120 isn't pulling it up.
Also - if it were me I'd do exactly what you suggest - i.e. attack that useless piece of junk with a soldering iron and remove the pull downs.
Might be more fun though for Kolias to soak it in lighter fuel and torch it on youtube - I for one would hit that.
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See if it Blends ;)
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If it's any help I think that the C1G was the preferred replacement - it is basically the same BoB but allows individual pull-up / pull-down on the inputs so they can each be set as required.
Tweakie.
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I'm sure plenty will disagree and I know it's not for everyone but why buy a BOB in the first place?
1) a packet of resistors will cost you less than a penny - that's pullups sorted.
2) a DB25 will cost you less than a quid - you've built everything else - how hard can it be to learn to solder? or even easieer get an IDC DB25
3) You don't need optos - any driver worth buying will already have them. In fact a BOB with optos is usually a PITA - you don't want to be driving optos (in the drive) with optos (on the BOB).
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Probably because its easy - the board is ready and tested and simple to mount.
I guess if you are building machines daily then you could have your own board made at a fraction of the cost, but when that cost is what ? £10 £20? It seems pointless bothering to build it yourself.
I have used three BOBs so far and all have worked fine, no odd issues with pull-up or down yet, and all have been opto isolated ones. Plus you get the relay and its associated snubber diode etc, nice easy screw terminals, the list goes on - its just easy thats all :)
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Thank you stirling for the excellent help. The C1G looks a good alternative but at this stage I have to decide if I should go for it.
I have no problem soldering but it’s my knowledge of electronics which is almost a big zero and I can never grasp it
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OK - I'm probably crackers but I hate to be beaten. ::)
After having a bit of a look around I see that these C10 boards have been a lot of trouble in the past. However it also turns out that there have been several revisions of the design. Unfortunately there are also several versions of the user manuals but I've yet to find one with a photo that matches the board you have.
However - I have found a schematic which does seem to match your board layout.
So I'll give it a couple more shots.
So Kolias - put your best concentration hat on please.
First question: See the attached image: Does the marked (in red) area on your board have a jumper marked INPUTS - 1-2 Pull Down 2-3 PullUp.
Second question: If it does - what's it currently set to i.e. is the jumper on 1-2 or 2-3?
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When I talk electronics I always have my best concentration hat on, LOL
The pins are set to 1 and 2 (pull-down). In the past I did have these to 2 and 3 and nothing worked
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1) reset that jumper onto pins 2-3 pullUp.
2) disconnect your probe red and black wires and disconnect that resistor.
3) disconnect your e-stop wire from pin 10
4) go to ports n pins and disable all your limits
5) test to see you can jog the motors.
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ok it will take me 10 minutes
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Did items 1-5 above, I can jog all motors now
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1) go to ports n pins/inputs and set probe to 15 active low (green tick)
2) go to diagnostics - the digitize LED should be UN-lit.
3) connect a wire to pin15
4) touch the other end to GND on the power connector. The digitize LED should light.
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which wire to pin 15?
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Correct, doing the above when I connect a wire from pin 15 to GND, the LED is ON
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1) remove the wire from pin15
2) connect the wire attached to your touch plate to pin15
3) connect the wire attached to your clip to GND on the power connector.
4) touch the clip to the plate. again the LED should light.
In use, you're going to need to clip the clip to THE TOOL - NOT a BOLT - NOT ANYWHERE BUT THE TOOL. Get a bigger clip if needs be.
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Did all above, but LED light on diagnostic screen is always ON. Touching clip to plate does nothing
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Sorry stirling but got to go out for 30 min. Tell me what you want and when I return I will do it
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Then you've done it wrong. Go back to post #55 above and repeat.
if this worked - which you say it did
pin15 ------------ wire --------------- GND
then
pin15 ------------ wire --------- plate touching clip -------- wire ---------- GND
has to work also - THINK about it - don't just follow along blindly - ALL you're doing is making a circuit between pin15 and GROUND.
touch clip to plate - LED lights
remove clip from plate - LED goes out.
PLEASE TELL ME YOUR PLATE IS INSULATED FROM GROUND IN SOME WAY. IF NOT STICK A PIECE OF WOOD UNDER IT.
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Yes in post #55 what I did I left the LED light ALWAYS ON and what is happening now the LED is ON regardless if I touch the clip to the plate. Is this what you want?
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The top of the cnc is wood. The plate / clip are connected to a DB9 connector. From the panel black and red wires are going to the female part of the DB9 and the male part is connected to clip and plate. I will now check if the wires inside the DB9's are ok
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The DB9 connectors are ok. Black wire from the panel is connected to the clip and red to the touch plate
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I don’t know what happened but to test my DB9 connectors I shut down the PC and power to the control panel to avoid any short-circuit. When I restored power the red wire was still on pin 15 and black wire on GND. The LED was OFF in the diagnostic screen and touching the clip to the plate went ON
Did that 3 times and then the LED went ON and stayed ON. So I decided to remove the DB9 connectors and solder to wires to have a direct connection between the panel and clip / plate.
Touching the clip now to the plate a dozen times the LED always comes ON and stays OFF when the clip is not touching the plate.
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DB connectors are a pain in the wotsit, very close pin spacing and close to shell (if metal) it was probably a single loose strand of wire touching the shell.
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I know they are PITA but when I installed them I checked continuity from the panel to clip / plate + from the two DB9 shells and all was good. Now I learned my lesson and will never use again
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If I ever use multi pin connectors, I always slip a short length of heat shrink tube on the wires first and after soldering wires simply slip it down over the soldered joint and the pin, stops any stray strands causing bother!
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Now that I removed the DB9 connectors and my black / red wires are connected straight thru from panel to clip / touch plate I thought it’s time to give a new try.
Went back to the original Mach3 setup (put pull-up/down jumper back to pins 1 and 2, re connect the Estop and all limits) and using the same wiring setup as per my 1st post (black to 5V with a 120 Ohms resistor, red to pin 15) I get the following
Active Low setting (Green)
LED light on Diagnostic screen is ON
When I touch the clip to the Chuck LED remains ON but when I touch the plate to the bit LED goes out
Volts = 5.12 but with the red meter tip to clip and the black meter tip to the plate. Otherwise I get a negative reading
Active High setting (Red)
LED light on Diagnostic screen is OFF
Volts = 5.12 but reversed as above (red meter tip to clip and black meter tip to the plate)
Nothing else was done because I don’t understand the meaning of the above
I’m sorry stirling for all the time you wasted but as I mentioned, in my mind the wiring was good as per my continuity test when I installed the black / red wires
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So it was working correctly earlier, and then you decided to make changes, and now it's not working again?
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It never worked good Gerry, I dont know what you mean
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Post 65 you say it worked, now you have gone back to original set up and it doesnt work.
Re read the post and work it out because i have a funny feeling you are on your own.!!!!!!!!!
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Thank you bfgstew for pointing out to me
Re wiring all as per post #14 now the probe works. Using my script the bit went down to touch the plate and up 1” as it should. The LED light in the diagnostic screen is OFF and the volts between the plate and chuck is 5.1 with correct polarity (black wire to clip and red to plate)
However I must point out that this wiring is not a universal fix for the C10 BOB. To my limited knowledge in electronics it depends I think on your router spindle insulation. I have used the C10 before with other routers like the same as I have now (Bosch Colt), air cooled spindle and a Taig spindle and never had any problem neither did use any resistor. When I used the air cooled spindle I also had the C41 variable speed control board.
Thank you all for the help