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Messages - joeaverage

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321
Mach4 General Discussion / Re: Reading spindle true RPM
« on: January 28, 2023, 05:43:34 PM »
Hi Azalin,
I remember hat thread, it was a few years ago now, but no that is not the thread I was thinking of.

If I recall correctly there is a setting, I believe within Mach, that governs the time constant of the averaging algorithm
displaying the spindle rpm.

Craig

322
Mach4 General Discussion / Re: Reading spindle true RPM
« on: January 28, 2023, 05:02:06 PM »
Hi,

Quote
Which parts in Mach4 I can check to see if I can fix?

At this stage, I don't know, I'm still trying to find the post about it. I'm hoping someone may remember and chime in.

Craig

323
Mach4 General Discussion / Re: Just starting out
« on: January 28, 2023, 04:59:53 PM »
Hi,
yes servos, at least good ones are still expensive, even if they are cheaper now than they have ever been. The 750W Delta I linked to
cost $438USD and another $150USD Fedex to New Zealand for a total of $588USD. The shipping hurts but then again I got them
2 days , 19hours and 40 minutes after Fedex picked up the box in HongKong....so its hard to complain about that service. I don't know how
they do it but this shipment should have had GST added to it, that is a NZ tax, but I think the dear old Chinaman must have lied about the value
of the parcel because customs did not bother charging me. I was fully expecting to have to pay another $150NZD on arrival. I just hope no one
from NZ customs sees this post!

The thing about servos/steppers are that they are bolt on units. You might design and build a machine with cheap steppers to meet your
budget but a couple of years later swap them out for servos, a very worthy upgrade.

What is often difficult to near impossible is to 'stiffen up' a wobbly machine. You need to build the most rigid machine you can from the outset
as usually there is no upgrade path for that.

I would reserve your budget for the best ballscrews and linear rails you can get and make the most rigid frame you can. If you choose and
build well you'll have the foundation of a machine that you quietly upgrade over ten or more years.

Craig

324
General Mach Discussion / Re: Trouble moving from XP to Win7 32bit
« on: January 28, 2023, 04:40:59 PM »
Hi,
the majority of breakout boards used, particularly in older installations require 5V signals from the parallel port. From
the nature of the discussion it sounds like your new PC may only have 3.3V outputs, in which case you older breakout board
may not work or at least be flakey.

The are some possibilites:
1) Replace the breakout board but of a later design that has 3.3V compliant inputs.
2) Put in a different parallel port card, one that is known to work. There are quite a few parallel port cards that do not work, they work well enough for
a printer but fail to comply with the full port standard and therefore fail for use with Mach3. Try PMDX, they supply parallel port cards that have been proven for
Mach use.
3) Ditch the parallel port and all its shortcomings altogether and get yourself an external motion controller. The UC100 is very popular even after many years.
It is USB connected to the PC but has a DB25 (parallel port output) socket and would plug directly into your breakout board.  Note that there are tons of UC100
rip-offs on Ebay and Amazon, but a genuine UC100 (CNCDrive) or don't bother. The rip-offs are not a patch on the real thing. Another popular motion controller
is the Ethernet SmoothStepper. It has three output ports, so very considerably more IO than your current installation. You'd need an IDC-to-DB25 cable ($9.00)
to plug your breakout board into it.

I upgraded from a parallel port many years ago to an ESS. I'd always thought Mach3's parallel port worked pretty well until I got an ESS. It ran that much
smoother I was able to run my steppers 1/3 faster without losing steps. I also found that the any extra software or running programs that used to screw
the parallel port had no effect on the ESS. Lastly now I could use any 64bit PC and 64bit OS like Windows 10, whereas with a parallel port you are limited
to 32bit OS's Windows 7 or earlier.

I also upgraded to Mach4 which was a real good step in the right direction, its light years ahead in my opinion.

Craig

325
Hi,
the only way to change work coordinates in Mach is to either Home (also called Reference) that axis OR use the Home_in_PLace function.
Mach3 has always been that way and so is Mach4.

Craig

326
Mach4 General Discussion / Re: Reading spindle true RPM
« on: January 28, 2023, 04:15:21 PM »
Hi,
I doubt that anything has changed in the PoKeys, I asked so I could find out what the cycle time was.

I suspect if there is a change it will be in Mach4. If  I recall there is a post on the forum which talked about the averaging applied to the spindle speed DRO,
haven't had any luck finding it so far.

The two things which could affect the DRO in the manner that you have described are 1) the motion controller cycle time is changing, maybe some other process or software
on the PC assuming priority that is causing the motion control plugin to run at odd intervals, 2) the averaging applied to the numeric data has somehow altered.

Craig

327
Mach4 General Discussion / Re: Reading spindle true RPM
« on: January 28, 2023, 04:02:09 PM »
Hi,
what motion controller are you using?

Motion controllers report back to Mach4 every 25ms or so, 25ms being the default cycle time of an ESS. At each cycle the motion controller will report
the number of spindle revolutions and Mach does the calculation. The problem is that the 25ms cycle time is nominal only, it might be 23ms sometimes
and 28ms at other times, with consequent variance of the calculated rpm. In most cases the displayed number is averaged. I would guess that somehow
the averaging strategy has changed.

Craig

328
Mach4 General Discussion / Re: Just starting out
« on: January 28, 2023, 12:39:11 AM »
Hi,
OK, that explains quite a bit about what you are after. I understand why you think closed loop servos or steppers would be advantageous
but the truth is that a well-designed and well spec'ed open loop system will be every bit as good.

Prior to my new mill (18-24 months old) I used an own design mini-mill for eight years. It had open loop Vexta steppers matched to low lash planetary gearboxes
and C5 ballscrews. Once I got it set up and tuned it NEVER missed a step except when I did something stupid.

All steppers lose torque the faster they go, that's just plain physics and there is no way around it. Thus, any given stepper may have lots
of torque at low speed but at 1000 rpm its very inclined to miss a step due to the decreased torque. If you limited the stepper speed to
500rpm it would  probably never miss a step. So by choosing 1) the right steppers and 2) the right limiting accelerations and speeds a
stepper driven machine will be as good as any closed loop machine...and a damn sight cheaper!!!

The manufacturers of closed loop steppers will tell you that their products 'never miss a step, go faster, more power, more this that and the other thing', nearly
all BS. A closed loop stepper loses torque the faster it goes....just like an open loop stepper, closing the loop changes not one jot the physics of how steppers work.
If a closed loop stepper is running fast and now only has marginally enough torque to power the load, if it misses a step then the stepper drive will insert an extra step
to catch up....but guess what, that step is just as likely to be missed as any other. If it misses too many steps then it will recognize that its lagging behind and will fault out.
The bottom line is that closed loop steppers can get overloaded and start missing steps FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASONS as an open loop stepper. A closed loop stepper
will valiantly try to catch up and may even succeed, but ultimately its being asked to go too fast against to much load than its capable of. Neither does closing the loop make
a stepper faster or more powerful.

The two advantages that closed loop steppers do have is that they can reliably and accurately do microsteps where open loop steppers fail, and also that they will fault
out if they lag to far behind rather than carry on making an out-of-tolerance part. Quite frankly the advantages offered by closed loop steppers are too slim to justify
the expense. Well-chosen open loop steppers and drives will be every bit as good. As to what constitutes the 'right' stepper is all about inductance. If you want to know
more I will post if you wish.

If you want genuine closed loop performance then you want AC servos. The main advantages of servos is they have a flat torque curve all the way out to 3000rpm, and
also they have three to four times their rated torque as a short term overload. This overload feature means that they seem to perform much better than the specs would suggest.
In short they kick arse and humble any stepper ever made...shame they cost as much as they do.

I use Delta servos, a Taiwanese brand made in China. DMM are a Canadian brand made in China. Both brands are good quality, support, documentation and most importantly
free set-up and tuning software at fair prices. There are cheaper Chinese brands and they are attractive because of price. By-and-large they are good quality and performance but
questionable support and worse documentation and no set-up software. If you've never used servos before don't go there, servos take quite a bit to set up and tune, you
don't want to start with one of these Chinese things with s******t documentation.

I use Delta B2 series servos, they have a 160,000 count per rev encoder, and are considered the entry level for Delta. There are even better servos, the A2 and B3 series
particularly....but even my B2's are absolutely fantastic. The servo pictured in the fourth axis above is:

https://www.fasttobuy.com/flange-80mm-239nm-ac-motor-driver-kits-with-3m-cable-220v-075kw-cnc-servo-motor-for-cnc-router_p28084.html

Its about a fortnight old!

The truth is that you can make a perfectly good machine with either steppers or servos if you choose well. I would defer that decision until you look at various other
components and the rigidity, or lack thereof, of the machine you want to build, and they will in turn direct your thinking about the axis motors.

What sort of accuracy do you want to achieve......and most importantly what materials do you want to cut?. If you want to cut wood and plastics, maybe a little
bit of aluminum, very VERY slowly then you'll need a machine of rigidity R. If you want to do a good job in aluminum without taking all bloody day then you'll need a machine
of rigidity 5R. If you want to cut steel the you'll need a machine of rigidity 20R at the absolute minimum. Cutting steel is very VERY demanding and most hobby machines
suck at it.

For accuracy you need to choose between rolled C7 ballscrews (cheap) or C5's (or even C3's) at ten or more times the price.

You also need to decide on round rails or square. Round rails are OK for wood but nowhere for metals, even only aluminum, for that you need square rails.

Craig

329
Mach4 General Discussion / Re: Just starting out
« on: January 27, 2023, 05:53:25 PM »
Hi,
just as a matter of interest I have attached some pics of my machine, it's all my own design and build, and if the truth be known I'm quite proud of it.

I have just finished fitting a 750W Delta servo to the fourth axis, and now it works much better and faster than the stepper driven earlier attempt.
Note this is just a rotary fourth axis....but yesterday I bought another Atlanta Drives worm drive for a fifth axis, so the rotary fourth axis will become
a trunnion table over the next few months or so.

Craig

330
Mach4 General Discussion / Re: Just starting out
« on: January 27, 2023, 05:42:17 PM »
Hi,

Quote
I am trying to build a medium size 5-axis CNC router with a closed loop system running Mach4,

Would you explain a little more about what you mean?.

Mach4 is not a feedback CNC control software, it is a Gcode interpreter and trajectory planner. It outputs numeric data that describes the controlled point (of the machine)
in 1 millisecond time slices to a buffered external motion control board like a Hicon or ESS. Mach4 cannot receive position feedback and use that to alter its output. This is because
a Windows PC cannot (practically) be a realtime device, ergo the output of the PC must be buffered. A buffer will have somewhere in the region of 50ms to 250ms buffer delay.
This buffering delay totally screws with Mach4 being a realtime feedback control solution.

As such Mach4 is an 'open loop' controller, it tells a machine where to go and expects the machine to do it. If the machine cannot keep up Mach has no way to know that nor
can it do anything about it. The machine itself may recognize that its missing steps and signal a fault whereon Mach4 would Estop.

I use Mach4 and an Ethernet SmoothStepper (ESS). My machine has Delta servos. The servos are closed loop. That is to say Mach4/ESS/BoB signal to the servo drive where the servo is to go and the
drive takes it there. If the servo cannot go there, maybe because of excess load, or because the path laid out for it is just too fast, it will recognize that and issue a 'Following Error Fault'
and that will in turn stop Mach4.  Closed loop steppers do very much the same thing. Is this what you mean by 'closed loop'?.

There are two motion control boards that are closed loop, the Hicon and CSMIO/A. They accept encoder input from a servo or maybe linear scale and adjust the controllers analogue
output (+-10V) to the servo amplifier and thereby control the servo. This means that the motion control board  closes the loop rather than the servo drive. Such schemes are really only
used on old school analogue servos and are rapidly disappearing. Additionally both of theses board are expensive and the Hicon requires extra activation to allow this mode of operation and
brings the cost to $1200USD. Is this what you mean by 'closed loop'?

There is a third possibility for closed loop control called 'load sensing' where the position of an axis is sensed by a linear scale and a servo/servo drive combination 'close the loop
on the load sensed position'. This requires some higher end hardware but is worth considering if you want the 'latest and greatest'. Is this what you mean by 'closed loop'?

So as you can see there are several interpretations of what 'closed loop' means and have a very major bearing on the hardware, the cost of that hardware and the complexity of the solution.
What is it you want to achieve?

As I have said I use Mach4 and an ESS which are both open loop, but with closed loop servos. When the servos are tuned properly and the acceleration and velocity parameters
correctly programmed within Mach4 the machine performs perfectly with 1um resolution without ever getting out of step for hours/days/months at a time. I've not had a
'Following Error' fault in many months and I use my machine daily for work, and often for hours at a time. So while Mach4 and the ESS maybe open loop the closed loop servos
still bring the resolution, accuracy and reliability 'to the party'.

Craig


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