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Author Topic: Spindle/ C Axis using CSMIO/IP-A  (Read 411 times)
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hughes674
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« on: October 12, 2018, 05:26:50 AM »

Hi All

Recently started a conversion using the CSMIO/IP-A on a Denford Senior lathe. With the help of people on this forum made huge progress and now have the X an Z-axis working perfectly using Lexium 28 servos and drives.

The original spindle motor is connected to the CSMIO and also works well as it should.

I would like to have a combined spindle/ C axis in order to facilitate some live tooling in the future. My plan is to fit a new Lexium servo motor and drive to power the spindle. (Appropriate size not yet decided)

I have successfully wired the X and Z axis using the analog +/- 10v and also have the VFD working using the 0 to 10v speed command on the spindle.     

Can anyone advise on how this would be configured and connected to the CSMIO so I can switch between Spindle and C axis? 

Mick
 
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Hood
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2018, 02:39:56 PM »

I presume you are planning to do away with the VFD driven spindle and solely use the servo.
On the parallel port the swap between spindle and C Axis could be achieved by using the SwapAxis() command, as mentioned previously I don't think that feature is supported in the CSMIO.
I also mentioned that the  easiest solution would be to have 2 Mach profiles, one with a spindle and one with a C Axis, obviously that would only be of use if you were to be only using one or the other on a part.
If you intend to use both spindle and C on the same part then I am not sure the best route, probably a relay to swap analogue outputs working via a macro. The encoder inputs to the CSMIO would likely have to be treated in a similar manner.
That then brings up the issue of the CSMIO faulting due to the disabled (via the relays) axis not getting the correct encoder feedback.

So to summarise if wanting to use one or the other per part then it will be easy, if wanting to use both per part then I think you have a headache.

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hughes674
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 06:15:59 AM »

Hood

Thanks for the reply. Yes, we did touch on this in my other topic. Using two Mach profiles was not really what I wanted but for the small amount of inconvenience of shutting one profile down and opening another sounds like it outweighs the headache of trying to get this set up as a combined Spindle/C axis.

What are your thoughts on keeping the original Spindle motor for turning, threading etc and having a smaller C axis motor that is engaged when the C axis profile is enabled?

I had this motor in mind. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/servo-motors/1110826/?sra=pmpn

The stall torque is only 7nm but as I would only be using it as a rotary C axis, I could mechanically gear it down to achieve a lot higher torque.


This is a response I had from CS LABS regarding Spindle/ C axis       


Hello,

 
In Mach3 you can't use a servo drive as a spindle and a fully functional rotary axis at the same time.

However, you can use a servo drive as a spindle and an indexed rotary axis (spindle positioning from VB macros with an accuracy of 0.1 degrees).

Using a servo drive as a spindle and a rotary axis at the same time was supposed to be provided by Mach4. It surely will be possible with simCNC.

As for a servo drive connection, you have to connect it the same way as the other servo drivers and then run "Spindle Axis" function in plugin.

 
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Hood
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 09:48:16 AM »

I am struggling a bit with their second line in the reply, they seem to be saying you can use a spindle as an indexed axis via VB yet the line before says you can't?

Anyway using the VFD/Induction motor as spindle and a clutched servo for C Axis may be the way to go/ How easy that would be to achieve would all depend on how easy it would be to implement some kind of clutch but it is probably the route I would go in your situation.

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hughes674
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2018, 10:56:33 AM »

I think something like this may work and be easy and cheap enough to make. Not sure how much tension would be needed on the auxiliary wheels once the C axis was engaged.
Try not to laugh too much. Lol Grin

 


* C AXIS PLAN.png (23.81 KB, 1152x648 - viewed 11 times.)
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docltf
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2018, 01:03:22 PM »

I have a lathe head stock tail stock setup for my milling machine when needed -
Use a stepper on the head stock for both spindle and A: axis rotary -
using mach3 ports and pins settings -
use same ports and pins for both spindle and axis -
A: axis 9 - 8 dir low
spindle 9 - 8 dir low
then do motor tuning on both for what you need -
works like a champ. don't see why it would't work on a servo -
program m3 m5 does spindle - G01 A: works index
don't mix the code, keep it clean , when one is on the other is off -


bill
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Hood
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2018, 01:14:47 PM »

I think something like this may work and be easy and cheap enough to make. Not sure how much tension would be needed on the auxiliary wheels once the C axis was engaged.
Try not to laugh too much. Lol Grin

 

Personally I think I would be looking at an electromagnetic clutch especially as you really want  to have a toothed belt for the indexing.

I have a lathe head stock tail stock setup for my milling machine when needed -
Use a stepper on the head stock for both spindle and A: axis rotary -
using mach3 ports and pins settings -
use same ports and pins for both spindle and axis -
A: axis 9 - 8 dir low
spindle 9 - 8 dir low
then do motor tuning on both for what you need -
works like a champ. don't see why it would't work on a servo -
program m3 m5 does spindle - G01 A: works index
don't mix the code, keep it clean , when one is on the other is off -


bill

The difference is the CSMIO/IP-A is closed loop analogue control. It is constantly monitoring the encoder positions. That would mean as soon as you moved your spindle the C Axis would fault and vice versa.

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Hood
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2018, 01:17:00 PM »

I have read the reply from CS Labs a few times and I am wondering if the second line is hinting at it being possible to do something like SwapAxis() feature in Mach except via VB scripts. It might be worth asking them to clarify.
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docltf
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2018, 02:13:29 PM »

I thought he was thinking of of using a servo only for both -

if he did go with a magnetic clutch wouldn't all power to the spindle have to be off during indexing -


bill
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Hood
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2018, 04:08:42 PM »

I thought he was thinking of of using a servo only for both -

Yes and that would be the problem, the CSMIO controller would command the spindle  but as the encoder is shared with the C (same motor, same encoder) then it would try and stop the C axis moving so it would put out an analogue voltage out the same channel as the spindle, that would not be a healthy situation. It would be similar to you commanding a spindle speed and an axis speed at the same time and worse still they would be opposites.  Even if that problem was got around by using different channels and relays  and you did likewise with the encoder signals then as soon as you swapped the channels via relays the encoder signals would vanish  and either the spindle or C axis would fault due to loss of feedback, in fact the whole control would E-Stop I would think.

Quote

if he did go with a magnetic clutch wouldn't all power to the spindle have to be off during indexing -


bill


Yes that would likely have to happen so probably two clutches would be needed. It may be possible to just disable the VFD, if the Indexing is relatively slow then I don't think there would be any regen issues but I am no expert on such things so the two clutches would be my preferred option.
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