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Author Topic: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)  (Read 6691 times)

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Offline Davek0974

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Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« on: January 05, 2018, 08:59:08 AM »
Hi all,

many of you will know me from the Mach3 forum, many of you have helped guide me through building various CNC machines etc over the years, thanks  ;)

My day-job of some 25 years is coming to an end soon  :( :( :( Before that job I have had two others but all in the same trade (printing/die-cutting) I have naff all qualifications on paper, no degrees, no HND's , no Masters etc :(

I run my own business part-time as a hobby, the idea was to build it up as a retirement supplement - I have a CNC plasma cutter, CNC mill and a small lathe plus welding kit and small-part powder-coating. I make hanging basket brackets, fire-pits and anything else i can think of to try and bring some cash. It works but not well enough to live on as I'm only 54 and its a fair way to retirement yet.

I really enjoy building machines, have made several at the day-job, PLC control, pneumatic drive and they have all been successful for what they needed to do. These were made before i discovered CNC so I can only guess they would have been far better if built now :) I also like making stuff in metal, really enjoy control electronics, panel-building/wiring and associated tomfoolery :)

Now, my main point - I'm trying to find out if there is anything I can make in a pretty comprehensive workshop, that can be sold for a reasonable return?? Thinking stuff like pre-built CNC control cabinets, CNC kits, small machines??

I know i will have to get another job and that prospect after being continuously employed for 39 years is scaring me sh1tless i must say :o :o But if i can boost my own income on something useful, it may mean only needing a part-time job stacking shelves etc!

I realise its a bit of a cheek asking this sort of question on a forum with so many likeminded people but maybe there is a hole in a market i can fill??

Any suggestions?
Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2018, 06:52:34 PM »
Hi Dave,
No ideas at the moment but I hope you find something soon.

If you let people know where you are located you get an offer or a lead on a job.

P.S. If you are not all ready part of it, join Linkedin. I am not looking for a job but some of the ones on there have almost tempted me to apply!

Best of luck

Mike
We never have the time or money to do it right the first time, but we somehow manage to do it twice and then spend the money to get it right.

Offline ger21

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Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2018, 07:55:57 PM »
Quote
Now, my main point - I'm trying to find out if there is anything I can make in a pretty comprehensive workshop, that can be sold for a reasonable return?? Thinking stuff like pre-built CNC control cabinets, CNC kits, small machines??

The simple answer, is any of them.
But it's not that simple. You need to work hard, make a good product, at a fair price, and most importantly, get the word out. 99% of it is being a salesman.
Gerry

2010 Screenset
http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

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http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html
Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2018, 08:16:01 PM »
Dave,
This is a really tough one. There is a really huge problem that no one thinks about but actually happened to me.  I built a machine that kinda sorta worked and then sold it to a company.  It was too slow to get all the work done so they built a mirror image copy on the same frame.  When an employee got hurt because they cut a few corners, like guards, they said he got hurt on the machine I built.  $15,000 later I was able to prove I didn't build the machine and the judge let me out of the suite before going to trial. It would have cost $100,000 to go to trial, even if I won!

You can be sued 30 years later, so insurance doesn't help unless you pay until you die.

Since then I have designed and built lots of machines. Some were one offs. They all had one thing in common.  For every one I got a regular hourly pay check and W2.  If a customer employee got hurt he couldn't sue me or the company, only workman's compensation.  If I got hurt I could sue workman's comp.  Without that paycheck I could sue the customer for all he is worth.  So both of us were protected.  One year I got 4 W2s and not because I changed jobs!

A product you make and sell is the holy grail of nearly every small manufacturing company doing job shop work.  I even have my own product.  A special paint scraper for removing bottom paint from a boat.  I got it patented, then lost my job at a company that closed and didn't have access to the equipment to make it.  A few years later I was out of a job again and the patent came up for maintenance fees of $500.  Eat or keep the patent?  Recently I made ten of them on my CNC but my wife threatens to divorce me if I try to sell them!

So I highly advise you spend lots of time honing all your skills.  I am 64 and the director of engineering, not cheif engineer because I don't have a degree.  I do have 4 patents.  But I do electrical design and wiring, PLC programming, CNC programming, machining, welding of all kinds, and use Rhino, AutoCad and SolidWorks every day.  So at an age when lots of guys are no longer relevant I hold my own with the young guys surrounding me.
Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2018, 08:47:58 PM »
I started to do the same, then quit while I was ahead.
I agree wholeheartedly with what Garylucas aid but will add ...
There are many parasitic/governmental hoops to jump through (and pay for) to be completely on the "up and up" in order to be completely legal. An LLC (or equivalent) might be best for your personal protection. I did work for 2 local plants, automating many processes. I had a disclaimer drafted by a lawyer basically stating that the customer company was to finalize the process regarding ALL safety and electrical protections. Plus, I was required to carry 2$M liability coverage in order to even be considered to do anything for them. On top of that, the parasites said "We hope you do well. If it makes any money, we'll give you some of it". I "almost" broke even. I quit that and am now on a payroll with benefits, and work at home for a company.
I actually make 1/3 as much(by the billing) but bring home 3 times as much. I feel fortunate.
It's tough to go it alone, be covered AND make $.
Good luck to ya.  :)
Regards,
Russ
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 08:51:39 PM by Overloaded »

Offline Davek0974

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Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2018, 03:30:29 AM »

P.S. If you are not all ready part of it, join Linkedin. I am not looking for a job but some of the ones on there have almost tempted me to apply!


Thanks I will look into LinkedIn ASAP, not heard of it personally until today ;)

Offline Davek0974

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Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2018, 03:38:54 AM »

But it's not that simple. You need to work hard, make a good product, at a fair price, and most importantly, get the word out. 99% of it is being a salesman.


Thanks, my main USP so far has been quality - people seem to love the products i make, they are stronger, neater, and I do custom designs when asked - many do not. I totally agree 100% with the gist of your post that 99% is being a salesman - and this seems to be where I fall flat on my face.

Because I make a point of making my stuff better, the price is already at RRP so that seriously limits me to direct retail only - I have tried and almost got a garden centre on-board to sell my fire-pits BUT I could not make them as good and drop the price to offer the customary trade discounts they demanded so it fell flat.

I am on Amazon, eBay and my own web shop, Amazon brings in bugger all, the sales are balanced 50/50 between the other two outlets.

I have not tried a leaflet drop yet, not sure if thats still PC these days or not.

But as i keep getting told, its no use making a product if you cant sell it :) - This is why i have so many odd products in my store, each one brings its own input so I try to keep as many eggs is as many baskets as possible :)

Offline Davek0974

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Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2018, 03:53:49 AM »
Dave,
This is a really tough one. There is a really huge problem that no one thinks about but actually happened to me.  I built a machine that kinda sorta worked and then sold it to a company.  It was too slow to get all the work done so they built a mirror image copy on the same frame.  When an employee got hurt because they cut a few corners, like guards, they said he got hurt on the machine I built.  $15,000 later I was able to prove I didn't build the machine and the judge let me out of the suite before going to trial. It would have cost $100,000 to go to trial, even if I won!

You can be sued 30 years later, so insurance doesn't help unless you pay until you die.

Since then I have designed and built lots of machines. Some were one offs. They all had one thing in common.  For every one I got a regular hourly pay check and W2.  If a customer employee got hurt he couldn't sue me or the company, only workman's compensation.  If I got hurt I could sue workman's comp.  Without that paycheck I could sue the customer for all he is worth.  So both of us were protected.  One year I got 4 W2s and not because I changed jobs!

A product you make and sell is the holy grail of nearly every small manufacturing company doing job shop work.  I even have my own product.  A special paint scraper for removing bottom paint from a boat.  I got it patented, then lost my job at a company that closed and didn't have access to the equipment to make it.  A few years later I was out of a job again and the patent came up for maintenance fees of $500.  Eat or keep the patent?  Recently I made ten of them on my CNC but my wife threatens to divorce me if I try to sell them!

So I highly advise you spend lots of time honing all your skills.  I am 64 and the director of engineering, not cheif engineer because I don't have a degree.  I do have 4 patents.  But I do electrical design and wiring, PLC programming, CNC programming, machining, welding of all kinds, and use Rhino, AutoCad and SolidWorks every day.  So at an age when lots of guys are no longer relevant I hold my own with the young guys surrounding me.

Hi,
not sure what a W2 is in UK equivalent?

I am a fully registered limited company so i can't be personally sued for anything - the company will take the hit and in the case of a very odd lawsuit would simply be declared bankrupt and closed down. I make a point of never offering to install stuff on-site as that opens up public liability etc.

The one CNC i did build was eventually sold as "parts or repair" as it was not 100% finished, this negates me from any claim. The customer loved it and has finished it and still uses it. It was made for a task which it did well, the task finished and i moved the jobs to the Bridgeport conversion to save shop space.

I don't really have many skills to hone - all my knowledge is in a very narrow band related to print (which is practically dead now) and small-scale engineering. I can program older ladder-logic PLC's after a fashion, I can sort of use Fusion360 to a degree, I can sort of use Illustrator and simple CAD apps to design fire-pits and brackets but I would not punt these as "skills" on the job market as the band of knowledge is pretty narrow. I know I can build a good CNC machine now, I can wire a neat panel and set the system up for Plasma or Milling but thats about it :(

I know where to buy good parts that I have proven in the real world, so quality would again be my USP, trouble is, most people look to price first, quality second these days so that means cheap chinese drives, poor PSU's, cheap BOB's and a whole headache of what to say when they blow it up.

I am adamant that I'm not going back to print, my type of print is dead now, its just working a photocopier style box and they like youngsters for that, anything bigger and they want previously trained people for that specific machine, you can only get that training by working in a place that sends you away on the course!

Aint life a bitch :)

Offline RICH

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Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2018, 07:23:02 AM »
Dave,
Here are a few suggestions, for what they are worth, with the understanding that I am just being
candid in my response.

1. Define your plan to address your "temporary" financial situation. Expect 1 month for say each $10,000 of
    yearly income as a time line.
2. Define what you want to do both short and long term work wise. The first step to achieving any goal is to envision     it. Remember that you can have anything you want but when you decide you must pay for it.
    This may be the hardest  mental work you ever did my friend. It includes analyzing skill sets and the application of     them to current manufacturing needs.Prioritizing tasks to be done, and there are a lot of them that will be generated,
    from the thinking.

Now go take of yourself  and no one else. You are not worth anything to anybody if you are not at peace.
Exercise ( just a nice daily walk will do), eat healthy, don't drink ( you need a clear mind), be at peace with your master ( he is always with you). Work hard on #2, relax / rest , and by all means do something that gives you enjoyment.

I just have to say a few things:
- You will progress or fade away. So you build on any skill set you currently have. You will be learning forever
   no matter what profession / work one is in. If not your fading away!
- Understand that YOU have a buisness and that is simply to make money. Matters not if you work for someone else.
   Change your thinking about work is.
- Consider investing in your buisness, namely you, ie; part of the plan may be to take a course to get certified in            welding
- Get used to the idea that you will need to find a job over and over again. That is the dynamic times we live in.
   So at any time for the buisness have a fall back plan in place. You will work again and it could be more rewarding
   than before. Nothing is ever perfect, pay is great-job sucks, job is great- pay sucks, just the way it is.

You may not realise it, but this may be the greatest opportunity you ever had........since for the first time in a long time
YOU are taking control of your buisness! Allow no time for pitty parties, always think positive, plan and implement,
now go do what needs to be done!

FWIW,
RICH
 
Re: Looking for ideas / advice, i think :)
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2018, 08:24:58 AM »
I am on Amazon, eBay and my own web shop, Amazon brings in bugger all, the sales are balanced 50/50 between the other two outlets.

Hi Dave,
A good place for you try try and sell these types of items is Etsy. They seem to specialize in handcrafted and more unusual stuff.


Mike.
We never have the time or money to do it right the first time, but we somehow manage to do it twice and then spend the money to get it right.