Machsupport Forum
Tangent Corner => Tangent Corner => Topic started by: Davek0974 on January 05, 2018, 08:59:08 AM
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Hi all,
many of you will know me from the Mach3 forum, many of you have helped guide me through building various CNC machines etc over the years, thanks ;)
My day-job of some 25 years is coming to an end soon :( :( :( Before that job I have had two others but all in the same trade (printing/die-cutting) I have naff all qualifications on paper, no degrees, no HND's , no Masters etc :(
I run my own business part-time as a hobby, the idea was to build it up as a retirement supplement - I have a CNC plasma cutter, CNC mill and a small lathe plus welding kit and small-part powder-coating. I make hanging basket brackets, fire-pits and anything else i can think of to try and bring some cash. It works but not well enough to live on as I'm only 54 and its a fair way to retirement yet.
I really enjoy building machines, have made several at the day-job, PLC control, pneumatic drive and they have all been successful for what they needed to do. These were made before i discovered CNC so I can only guess they would have been far better if built now :) I also like making stuff in metal, really enjoy control electronics, panel-building/wiring and associated tomfoolery :)
Now, my main point - I'm trying to find out if there is anything I can make in a pretty comprehensive workshop, that can be sold for a reasonable return?? Thinking stuff like pre-built CNC control cabinets, CNC kits, small machines??
I know i will have to get another job and that prospect after being continuously employed for 39 years is scaring me sh1tless i must say :o :o But if i can boost my own income on something useful, it may mean only needing a part-time job stacking shelves etc!
I realise its a bit of a cheek asking this sort of question on a forum with so many likeminded people but maybe there is a hole in a market i can fill??
Any suggestions?
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Hi Dave,
No ideas at the moment but I hope you find something soon.
If you let people know where you are located you get an offer or a lead on a job.
P.S. If you are not all ready part of it, join Linkedin. I am not looking for a job but some of the ones on there have almost tempted me to apply!
Best of luck
Mike
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Now, my main point - I'm trying to find out if there is anything I can make in a pretty comprehensive workshop, that can be sold for a reasonable return?? Thinking stuff like pre-built CNC control cabinets, CNC kits, small machines??
The simple answer, is any of them.
But it's not that simple. You need to work hard, make a good product, at a fair price, and most importantly, get the word out. 99% of it is being a salesman.
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Dave,
This is a really tough one. There is a really huge problem that no one thinks about but actually happened to me. I built a machine that kinda sorta worked and then sold it to a company. It was too slow to get all the work done so they built a mirror image copy on the same frame. When an employee got hurt because they cut a few corners, like guards, they said he got hurt on the machine I built. $15,000 later I was able to prove I didn't build the machine and the judge let me out of the suite before going to trial. It would have cost $100,000 to go to trial, even if I won!
You can be sued 30 years later, so insurance doesn't help unless you pay until you die.
Since then I have designed and built lots of machines. Some were one offs. They all had one thing in common. For every one I got a regular hourly pay check and W2. If a customer employee got hurt he couldn't sue me or the company, only workman's compensation. If I got hurt I could sue workman's comp. Without that paycheck I could sue the customer for all he is worth. So both of us were protected. One year I got 4 W2s and not because I changed jobs!
A product you make and sell is the holy grail of nearly every small manufacturing company doing job shop work. I even have my own product. A special paint scraper for removing bottom paint from a boat. I got it patented, then lost my job at a company that closed and didn't have access to the equipment to make it. A few years later I was out of a job again and the patent came up for maintenance fees of $500. Eat or keep the patent? Recently I made ten of them on my CNC but my wife threatens to divorce me if I try to sell them!
So I highly advise you spend lots of time honing all your skills. I am 64 and the director of engineering, not cheif engineer because I don't have a degree. I do have 4 patents. But I do electrical design and wiring, PLC programming, CNC programming, machining, welding of all kinds, and use Rhino, AutoCad and SolidWorks every day. So at an age when lots of guys are no longer relevant I hold my own with the young guys surrounding me.
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I started to do the same, then quit while I was ahead.
I agree wholeheartedly with what Garylucas aid but will add ...
There are many parasitic/governmental hoops to jump through (and pay for) to be completely on the "up and up" in order to be completely legal. An LLC (or equivalent) might be best for your personal protection. I did work for 2 local plants, automating many processes. I had a disclaimer drafted by a lawyer basically stating that the customer company was to finalize the process regarding ALL safety and electrical protections. Plus, I was required to carry 2$M liability coverage in order to even be considered to do anything for them. On top of that, the parasites said "We hope you do well. If it makes any money, we'll give you some of it". I "almost" broke even. I quit that and am now on a payroll with benefits, and work at home for a company.
I actually make 1/3 as much(by the billing) but bring home 3 times as much. I feel fortunate.
It's tough to go it alone, be covered AND make $.
Good luck to ya. :)
Regards,
Russ
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P.S. If you are not all ready part of it, join Linkedin. I am not looking for a job but some of the ones on there have almost tempted me to apply!
Thanks I will look into LinkedIn ASAP, not heard of it personally until today ;)
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But it's not that simple. You need to work hard, make a good product, at a fair price, and most importantly, get the word out. 99% of it is being a salesman.
Thanks, my main USP so far has been quality - people seem to love the products i make, they are stronger, neater, and I do custom designs when asked - many do not. I totally agree 100% with the gist of your post that 99% is being a salesman - and this seems to be where I fall flat on my face.
Because I make a point of making my stuff better, the price is already at RRP so that seriously limits me to direct retail only - I have tried and almost got a garden centre on-board to sell my fire-pits BUT I could not make them as good and drop the price to offer the customary trade discounts they demanded so it fell flat.
I am on Amazon, eBay and my own web shop, Amazon brings in bugger all, the sales are balanced 50/50 between the other two outlets.
I have not tried a leaflet drop yet, not sure if thats still PC these days or not.
But as i keep getting told, its no use making a product if you cant sell it :) - This is why i have so many odd products in my store, each one brings its own input so I try to keep as many eggs is as many baskets as possible :)
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Dave,
This is a really tough one. There is a really huge problem that no one thinks about but actually happened to me. I built a machine that kinda sorta worked and then sold it to a company. It was too slow to get all the work done so they built a mirror image copy on the same frame. When an employee got hurt because they cut a few corners, like guards, they said he got hurt on the machine I built. $15,000 later I was able to prove I didn't build the machine and the judge let me out of the suite before going to trial. It would have cost $100,000 to go to trial, even if I won!
You can be sued 30 years later, so insurance doesn't help unless you pay until you die.
Since then I have designed and built lots of machines. Some were one offs. They all had one thing in common. For every one I got a regular hourly pay check and W2. If a customer employee got hurt he couldn't sue me or the company, only workman's compensation. If I got hurt I could sue workman's comp. Without that paycheck I could sue the customer for all he is worth. So both of us were protected. One year I got 4 W2s and not because I changed jobs!
A product you make and sell is the holy grail of nearly every small manufacturing company doing job shop work. I even have my own product. A special paint scraper for removing bottom paint from a boat. I got it patented, then lost my job at a company that closed and didn't have access to the equipment to make it. A few years later I was out of a job again and the patent came up for maintenance fees of $500. Eat or keep the patent? Recently I made ten of them on my CNC but my wife threatens to divorce me if I try to sell them!
So I highly advise you spend lots of time honing all your skills. I am 64 and the director of engineering, not cheif engineer because I don't have a degree. I do have 4 patents. But I do electrical design and wiring, PLC programming, CNC programming, machining, welding of all kinds, and use Rhino, AutoCad and SolidWorks every day. So at an age when lots of guys are no longer relevant I hold my own with the young guys surrounding me.
Hi,
not sure what a W2 is in UK equivalent?
I am a fully registered limited company so i can't be personally sued for anything - the company will take the hit and in the case of a very odd lawsuit would simply be declared bankrupt and closed down. I make a point of never offering to install stuff on-site as that opens up public liability etc.
The one CNC i did build was eventually sold as "parts or repair" as it was not 100% finished, this negates me from any claim. The customer loved it and has finished it and still uses it. It was made for a task which it did well, the task finished and i moved the jobs to the Bridgeport conversion to save shop space.
I don't really have many skills to hone - all my knowledge is in a very narrow band related to print (which is practically dead now) and small-scale engineering. I can program older ladder-logic PLC's after a fashion, I can sort of use Fusion360 to a degree, I can sort of use Illustrator and simple CAD apps to design fire-pits and brackets but I would not punt these as "skills" on the job market as the band of knowledge is pretty narrow. I know I can build a good CNC machine now, I can wire a neat panel and set the system up for Plasma or Milling but thats about it :(
I know where to buy good parts that I have proven in the real world, so quality would again be my USP, trouble is, most people look to price first, quality second these days so that means cheap chinese drives, poor PSU's, cheap BOB's and a whole headache of what to say when they blow it up.
I am adamant that I'm not going back to print, my type of print is dead now, its just working a photocopier style box and they like youngsters for that, anything bigger and they want previously trained people for that specific machine, you can only get that training by working in a place that sends you away on the course!
Aint life a bitch :)
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Dave,
Here are a few suggestions, for what they are worth, with the understanding that I am just being
candid in my response.
1. Define your plan to address your "temporary" financial situation. Expect 1 month for say each $10,000 of
yearly income as a time line.
2. Define what you want to do both short and long term work wise. The first step to achieving any goal is to envision it. Remember that you can have anything you want but when you decide you must pay for it.
This may be the hardest mental work you ever did my friend. It includes analyzing skill sets and the application of them to current manufacturing needs.Prioritizing tasks to be done, and there are a lot of them that will be generated,
from the thinking.
Now go take of yourself and no one else. You are not worth anything to anybody if you are not at peace.
Exercise ( just a nice daily walk will do), eat healthy, don't drink ( you need a clear mind), be at peace with your master ( he is always with you). Work hard on #2, relax / rest , and by all means do something that gives you enjoyment.
I just have to say a few things:
- You will progress or fade away. So you build on any skill set you currently have. You will be learning forever
no matter what profession / work one is in. If not your fading away!
- Understand that YOU have a buisness and that is simply to make money. Matters not if you work for someone else.
Change your thinking about work is.
- Consider investing in your buisness, namely you, ie; part of the plan may be to take a course to get certified in welding
- Get used to the idea that you will need to find a job over and over again. That is the dynamic times we live in.
So at any time for the buisness have a fall back plan in place. You will work again and it could be more rewarding
than before. Nothing is ever perfect, pay is great-job sucks, job is great- pay sucks, just the way it is.
You may not realise it, but this may be the greatest opportunity you ever had........since for the first time in a long time
YOU are taking control of your buisness! Allow no time for pitty parties, always think positive, plan and implement,
now go do what needs to be done!
FWIW,
RICH
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I am on Amazon, eBay and my own web shop, Amazon brings in bugger all, the sales are balanced 50/50 between the other two outlets.
Hi Dave,
A good place for you try try and sell these types of items is Etsy. They seem to specialize in handcrafted and more unusual stuff.
Mike.
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Hi Dave,
A good place for you try try and sell these types of items is Etsy. They seem to specialize in handcrafted and more unusual stuff.
Mike.
IIRC I was on Easy for a while, probably still on it - never ever had a tickle from it! Amazon is bad but etsy was non-existent for sales or leads.
I also tried very hard to get on "Not on the highstreet" but was refused each time.
I'll have another look at Etsy
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Dave,
Here are a few suggestions, for what they are worth, with the understanding that I am just being
candid in my response.
1. Define your plan to address your "temporary" financial situation. Expect 1 month for say each $10,000 of
yearly income as a time line.
2. Define what you want to do both short and long term work wise. The first step to achieving any goal is to envision it. Remember that you can have anything you want but when you decide you must pay for it.
This may be the hardest mental work you ever did my friend. It includes analyzing skill sets and the application of them to current manufacturing needs.Prioritizing tasks to be done, and there are a lot of them that will be generated,
from the thinking.
Now go take of yourself and no one else. You are not worth anything to anybody if you are not at peace.
Exercise ( just a nice daily walk will do), eat healthy, don't drink ( you need a clear mind), be at peace with your master ( he is always with you). Work hard on #2, relax / rest , and by all means do something that gives you enjoyment.
I just have to say a few things:
- You will progress or fade away. So you build on any skill set you currently have. You will be learning forever
no matter what profession / work one is in. If not your fading away!
- Understand that YOU have a buisness and that is simply to make money. Matters not if you work for someone else.
Change your thinking about work is.
- Consider investing in your buisness, namely you, ie; part of the plan may be to take a course to get certified in welding
- Get used to the idea that you will need to find a job over and over again. That is the dynamic times we live in.
So at any time for the buisness have a fall back plan in place. You will work again and it could be more rewarding
than before. Nothing is ever perfect, pay is great-job sucks, job is great- pay sucks, just the way it is.
You may not realise it, but this may be the greatest opportunity you ever had........since for the first time in a long time
YOU are taking control of your buisness! Allow no time for pitty parties, always think positive, plan and implement,
now go do what needs to be done!
FWIW,
RICH
Thanks Rich, a lot to digest there.
The changeover period should hopefully not be too bad, we are adjusting now to lower outgoings in advance and there will be redundancy to tide us over so i'm not going to go into panic mode the day i leave :) In 14m I can start drawing on one or both of my pensions - this will really lift the financial position and mean I have less urgency to get a long-hours job etc. Naturally if something comes along i won't give it up - you can never be too well off right?
I'll re-read the post a few times as it is pretty deep, but I'm a fairly relaxed low-stress person, tend to approach situations and just deal with them as it needs at the time. I don't "not" drink, maybe one or two a week. Exercise is problem as I have early arthritis in knees and wrists - a common problem for long-term printers! Years of kneeling on concert floors loading paper by hand into presses is ok when young but really bites when the years roll on. This makes walking long distances out, I was advised NOT to jog or run, cycling is ok though. This of course will affect any job I go for.
Fun times ahead :)
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I like your idea of custom control cabinets. I know I would be interested in a box or kit that I could get to clean up my existing control cabinet. I am currently using an old 4U rack mount PC case I hacked the face off of and replaced with aluminum sheets milled into panels. I'd love to upgrade it with something more... professional.
A couple of suggestions for potential markets that may be of interest to you.
3D printer related parts and or Quad-copter drone related parts are pretty hot right now.
within the last couple of months, I've had a few job requests for drone camera mounts and couple requests for brackets to mount a tablet to a RC controller.
As for 3D printer parts, it's very similar to CNC hardware and it attracts the same the do-it-yourself minded people.
I'm sure by poking around in either community, you could drum up some fantastic niche market ideas
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HI,
I bought a 3d printer some years ago, joined a forum, found that some the parts were lacking as they were made from perspex and mdf, took the design, converted it for laser cutting and had them made outside and sold to members, later on i made them myself by plasma cutting and hand finishing and now they are CNC milled and hand finished. Unfortunately practically every one of this model now has my parts on it :) and sales have of course dried up.
Most of the newer printers have learned from these early ones and are now far better built. The Cetus printer even has linear rails !
Drones I know little of, will check that out.
My cabinet idea was maybe fully built, ready to connect supplied motors, 3 axis, 3 axis +slave or 4 axis options, ethernet connection, linear PSU, some flavour of motion controller. Something like that, lots of options but all with the idea of fit, connect and go. I have checked and they are of course already on eBay but using low cost parts, smaller motors etc - I want something that will last. Just ideas at present :)
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I like your idea, but with respect to the fact that a majority of the home-built-CNC market is a Do-it-yourself kind of crowd, you may see more business in the cabinet itself. I.E. many of us pride ourselves in having put the electronics together ourselves, but having a chassis to launch that build from would be a great starting point.
but perhaps you could meet in the middle and offer both.
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Hmm, thats what i was thinking - we are all builders and tweaks so i would be preaching to the wrong crowd ;)
I always use standard industrial steel enclosures, apart from the Bridgeport which has a cabinet about 4' x 3' x 1' - its massive and its full up! This was welded up from 3mm steel sheet and sprayed.
The more I look into it, the less of a market there is i think, most DIY CNC'ers will happily put together the parts and assemble a panel of some sorts - its part of the fun for most, I would only be of appeal to those with less electronics ability or those with small machines that have failing TB multi-axis boards in them etc. I can offer to build to order maybe - you specify what motor size and connection method and away we go, something like that maybe??