Shizuoka AN-S Retrofit

[SteamEngineParts]

Hi Group,

First off, thank you to all of you who post on this forum.  I would never have considered this project if I hadn't spent the last few months reading all these great threads about what you guys do.  

My friend Jon and I just bought an early '80's vintage Shizuoka knee mill with an AB 8400MP controller.  The CNC stuff was apparently fit up by an outfit called Hasbach.  The controller still runs and the x,y,and z all run smooth.  While the old AB might still be serviceable,  I want to convert to Mach immediately.  

I think the original DC Servos will be good enough to get us going, the only problem is I can't tell what they are.  Whoever painted the machine last destroyed any traces of motor id tags.  Here is what I know about them.....They have 4 brushes, they measure 5.0" O.D. , 14.85" long with cover on, 10.40" long with cover off.  The motor power wires appear to be 18 or 20 gauge.  They have been retrofitted with accu-coder digital encoders made in 1993.  They are currently running up to 90volts from the AB system.  Does anyone recognize these servos??

Thanks!
Brendon

[jastein]

Hi Brandon:

    I have a very similar Shizuoka which has been running Mach3 when it was Mach2.   

    The motors look like they will work just fine.  I would guess 30 to 40 in-lb torque continuous.  Guessing around 12 amp continuous.  I like the motor mount on the y axis.  Never seen that on a Shizuoka.

     You have several options on the retrofit.  You can use the analog drives from the AB control (maybe) using a +_ 10 volt  interface like a Galil or a DSPMC from Vital System.   You can use step/dir drives like the 320 Geckodrives (that is what I am currently using) or the drives from cncdrives or any of the other similar units.

The machine is very heavy duty, but you have figured that one out! 

  How are you going to operate the tool changer?  I have mine set up for manual control, but am about to control it from the Mach3.   If you get the tool changer working, let me know how you get it to work!  The AB control may give some good clues how to interface the tool changer.

   Cheers,  Jim

[SteamEngineParts]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the reply.  Would like to see some pics of your Shiz!  I'm very interested to hear what you think of the performance of those Gecko Drives on  larger machines like these.  Does the 80V limit affect your performance?  I've been trying to decide between the Geckos and the Dugongs.  I was thinking about running the Dugongs at 110 volt, to simplify the power supply.  I figure if the motors are good for 90V, they are probably good for 110V.  What do you think?

I was trying to figure out the devices needed to reuse the old analog drives, but it looks like I can put together an entirely new system with the geckos or dugongs for less then the price of the analog interface setup.  Am I missing something? 

Wish I could share some brilliance about the tool changer, but that's way more advanced than I am at this point.  If I can just get 3 axis running under mach control, I'll be thrilled!

Thanks,
Brendon

[jastein]

Brendon:  The Geckos I am using do limit the speed some, I only have it set for 120 in per min rapids.  It should be doing twice that.  But it is reliable.  I am looking at using a Galil board and analog drives, but it has to be down for a while, and that I cannot do at the moment.  I think that combination would be very reliable.  The DSPMC from Vital System has a capability of lots of IO if you want to use it for the tool changer.

It is a toss up as far as Gecko vs the Dugong drives.  Your x axis is setup as direct drive, so if you have the torque with a gecko, you should be able to have pretty good rapids with only 80 volts. Not sure of the y axis.  Mine are set at 1.6:1 gear down and it is OK.   I would like to hear how the Dugong drives work for such a setup.  They seem really nice with a usb programming setup and 160 volts. Of course they would put out more current than the Gekcos.  I bet your motors are at least 100 volts. It would be great if you could figure out what the max voltage is as they look line nice motors.

If you go the step/dir route, do yourself a favor and get a really good breakout board.  I went thru a few and have been real happy with a PMDX for my lathe setup. It is a 126 and it is great.  Excellent support as well.

There are all kinds of options for the tool changer. I guess a lot of people like to use a dedicated PLC to run it.  There are also the ModIO and the POkeys and lots of others I have looked at using.  The tool changer on your machine and mine have an internal PLC I presume and it only needs some M codes to make the changes happen. It is kind of a pain to have the cam system produce all the m codes for tool changes and speed changes.    I have the manuals if you need a copy.  That is a pretty interesting location of the speed control motor on your machine.  It think your version of the Shizuoka is the most refined that I have ever seen.

Cheers,  Jim

[Hood]

  The tool changer on your machine and mine have an internal PLC I presume and it only needs some M codes to make the changes happen. It is kind of a pain to have the cam system produce all the m codes for tool changes and speed changes.    I have the manuals if you need a copy.  That is a pretty interesting location of the speed control motor on your machine.  It think your version of the Shizuoka is the most refined that I have ever seen.

Cheers,  Jim

If the PLC is working and only needs some inputs it may just be a case of editing the M6 macros o send out the proper signals to the PLC. If that is the case then only a tool call would be needed.
Do you have the manuals in PDF as I would be interested to have a look, might not understand but would look

Are the toolchangers like this one I was going to get, its on a Matchmaker which is a rebadged Shizouka I believe.

http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,10331.msg74181.html#msg74181

Hood

[jastein]

Yes, Hood, that is it more or less.  The pneumatic controls are located a little differently, but the arm and all are the same. 

The hardware on my changer is not the most reliable and needs some work to make it reliable enough to trust to changing the expensive tools!

The way it works (as I understand it anyway) is it needs an output from the control for tool in, tool out, turret home, turret clockwise and turret counterclockwise.  This relay closure stays closed until the command is completed.

There is feedback from the tool changer to tell the control that things have happened. It is called a "reset input signal" which is a 100 msec contact closure.  I expect Mach would need to wait for this signal, so I would guess some kind of logic, perhaps a "brain" would do this?? 

I guess you edit the M6Start macro to do the tool change.  I am not sure of how the best way to go about that, but I expect it is not too bad.  Any words of wisdom are more than welcome.

I only have the docs in hard copy (25+ years old) but will scan some of the important parts if it helps. 

Cheers, Jim

[Hood]

For my lathe turrets the M6 macro basically sends out a signal to the PLC which does all the turret operation then when the correct tool is in position the PLC informs the macro, the macro shuts off the signal to the PLC and then Mach continues. I have two turrets and they are both slightly different in the way they work, rear turret (original on my lathe) just has one signal from macro to PLC to start indexing and it looks at 6 inputs for correct tool. Front turret I fitted a servo and indexing drive so its six outputs from the macro (one for each tool) and only 1 input for the tool in position.

So really you need to find out what outputs the PLC needs and what inputs it will send and writing a macro shouldnt be too bad, having said that I am crap at VB
Hood

[SteamEngineParts]

Here are some pics of the tool changer.....

[SteamEngineParts]

Now as far as the controller for the changer.....not sure.   I think it must be controlled from this cabinet (1 of 3.)  My totally uninformed estimation is that it must be controlled by the main AB controller (on left hanging on the door.)  The only reason I say that is there are only two other components in the cabinet.  The one on the left appears to be the breakout board (if that is the right term on an old machine like this) and the one on the right appears to be a power supply for the AB.

Jim, any documentation you have on any of this stuff would be greatly appreciated!

Now back to square one, where I am, I think I'm going to order the DG2S-16035 from cnc drive which has apparently replaced the Dugong.  The geckos have huge appeal since their headquarters is only 45 miles from be, but I think I'm going to really want the higher volts/amps in the future. 

Thanks Guys,

Brendon

[jastein]

Here is a scan of the Summit Toolchanger. 

If it would be better located elsewhere, let me know or the moderators may just move it.

Thanks,

Jim